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Morthoron
Hithlum
Feb 27 2009, 5:23am
Post #1 of 15
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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part IV – 1977 to 2463 3rd Age
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Information becomes more and more condensed the further we go along, doesn’t it? We could almost do a line-by-line summarization of the chronology at this point. Nazgul and Balrogs and Orcses, oh my! Rather than becoming too diffused, let’s concentrate on a few notable characters, shall we? Of course, anything anyone wishes to add to the discussion is always welcome.
Eärnur is an interesting character, isn’t he? He was brasher than Boromir, with more hubris than Helm, but with as much common sense as a box of hair. It may well be that the Lords of Gondor let him ride off to Minas Morgul to be rid of him before he married and passed on his genes to another generation of kings. I can see them all sitting around the war room table saying, “Well, he’s been gone a few years now. Let’s pronounce him perpetually missing in action and skip picking a king – at least until all Eärnur’s relations are dead.”
From a practical political standpoint, and from what we know about men and the principles of power (or lack of principles, more likely), does it make sense that no Ruling Steward ever crowned himself king? Once again we see a stasis – an inertness bordering on incredulity – where generation after generation of Stewards sat in their little chair below the king’s dais without even a hint of lust for higher office. Even accounting for Tolkien’s conservatism, doesn’t this seem a bit farfetched?
We haven’t dealt much with the Dwarves in our discussions, but now seems the appropriate time. They’ve mined long and hard in Moria, digging ever deeper they unleash a snoozing Balrog. How he got there, we’ll never really know, save that he managed to elude destruction in the War of Wrath. It takes the Balrog about a year (and two slain Dwarvish kings), but finally he drives the Dwarves from Moria. Interestingly enough, in the same entry for the year 1981 TA, Tolkien mentions that the Silvan Elves, too, flee south.
Does this mean that the Balrog actually left the mines of Moria and terrorized the local environs outside Moria as well?
In this time period, Gandalf really starts asserting himself, entering Dol Guldur on two occasions (2063 and 2850 – hey, twice in 800 years is being assertive when it comes to the Tale of Years), and he is instrumental in forming the White Council (to the chagrin of the envious Saruman).
Drat! I am being called into work. I will offer a longer thread tomorrow, inclusive of the time I have missed. Sorry for the abrupt ending. I hate when reality intrudes on my fantasy.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 27 2009, 5:25am)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 27 2009, 6:28am
Post #2 of 15
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From a practical political standpoint, and from what we know about men and the principles of power (or lack of principles, more likely), does it make sense that no Ruling Steward ever crowned himself king? Once again we see a stasis – an inertness bordering on incredulity – where generation after generation of Stewards sat in their little chair below the king’s dais without even a hint of lust for higher office. Even accounting for Tolkien’s conservatism, doesn’t this seem a bit farfetched?
Well, I think the reasons are two-fold.......
It's a story and it's called The Return of the King.
Staying within the story, however, there is a lack of viable candidates when Earnil takes the crown. At this point, I believe it says somewhere that the Steward at that time had much to do with Gondor rejecting Arvedui's claim to the crown & awarding it to Earnil, so we see the Stewards gaining in power. It would then be in the Steward's interest when Earnur disappers to continue the status quo, with him ruling in the King's absense instead of trying to declare himself king, since no new clainant's for the crown came forth.
If the Stewards were to try to call themselves king, might a distant relative of Anarion, of which there were some for a time, come forth in response? There's really no need for the Stewards to do so anyhow - they already have the kings power if not his name.
From a practical political standpoint, and from what we know about men and the principles of power (or lack of principles, more likely), does it make sense that no Ruling Steward ever crowned himself king? Once again we see a stasis – an inertness bordering on incredulity – where generation after generation of Stewards sat in their little chair below the king’s dais without even a hint of lust for higher office. Even accounting for Tolkien’s conservatism, doesn’t this seem a bit farfetched?
The Stewards don't need 'higher office' as they are the defacto kings anyhow. All they do not have is the title, the crown & the seat at the top of the stairs. They do have what counts though - all the power. One of them even gives away part of Gondor to the Rohirrim.
Does this mean that the Balrog actually left the mines of Moria and terrorized the local environs outside Moria as well?
There is not a snowball's chance in Udun that the Balrog ever stepped foot outside of Moria...... 
Seriously, I don't think so, although that is an interesting thought.
Certainly, it never went to Lorien in my opinion.
FOTR; The Mirror of Galadriel:
'Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened......the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the fire, and the narrow bridge, and the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. 'It seemed both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas, 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
......'Alas!' said Celeborn. We have long feared that under Caradhras a terror slept.....'
If Galadriel and Celeborn don't know for sure what this 'terror' is, how could it have ever been in Lorien?
Besides, if the power of Galadriel's Ring would keep out any evil but Sauron, is the Balrog getting in?
(could be, but....)
Secondly, this Balrog seems to not want to go anywhere.
As I've noted recently, it appears quite certainly to me from the text in Durin's Folk to be standing right at the East Gate watching during the Battle of Azinulbizar & never takes one step out the door to help the Orcs or attack the Dwarves. Dain comes down from the Gate 'grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.'
He then tells Thrain 'Durin's Bane waits beyond the shadow of the Gate.'
So why does the Balrog just stand by and watch if it is willing to leave Moria?
Why didn't it leave Moria any other time at all?
I think this Balrog, who was driven into Moria by fear of the Host of the West, is quite possibly still in fear that the Host of the West might still be around. How would it know that they had left Middle-earth? MENN? (Middle-earth News Network?)
I think that there was probably a major panic because of the Dwarves dying left & right and fleeing Moria in 1981 which caused the Elves of Lorien to flee.
Because if the Balrog left Moria once with the great sucess needed to cause a panic in Lorien, why would it go back & never leave again?
Also, if it was drawn to the power of Gandalf or the Ring when the Fellowship entered Moria (it did attack them but left Balin and Company alone for 5 years), then would it not have probably been drawn towards Dol Guldur if it had gotten as far as Lorien?
Finally, I think Tolkien would've written such a signifigant event down somewhere, even in passing, but it is not mentioned anywhere.
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 27 2009, 8:36am
Post #3 of 15
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From a practical political standpoint, and from what we know about men and the principles of power (or lack of principles, more likely), does it make sense that no Ruling Steward ever crowned himself king? Once again we see a stasis – an inertness bordering on incredulity – where generation after generation of Stewards sat in their little chair below the king’s dais without even a hint of lust for higher office. Even accounting for Tolkien’s conservatism, doesn’t this seem a bit farfetched?
The Shoguns of Japan never crowned themselves emperor. The Prime Ministers of England never crowned themselves king. Why bother, if you have the power? There's no need. Of course, in both those cases there really were emperors and kings around for ceremonial purposes -- what strikes me as unrealistic is the Stewards' unwillingness to find some harmless puppet to occupy that throne. Not only would it be helpful for ceremony, it would also make it that much more difficult for some northern chieftan to come along and claim the throne -- and the Stewards are well aware of that claim.
Does this mean that the Balrog actually left the mines of Moria and terrorized the local environs outside Moria as well?
No, the Balrog doesn't seem to leave Moria. I think he seriously fears being seen by the Valar or their servants (like the farsighted Eagles). But because of his presence the orcs flourish and do terrorize the local area.
(This post was edited by Curious on Feb 27 2009, 8:38am)
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 27 2009, 9:19am
Post #4 of 15
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A few answers, some to the point
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From a practical political standpoint, and from what we know about men and the principles of power (or lack of principles, more likely), does it make sense that no Ruling Steward ever crowned himself king? Once again we see a stasis – an inertness bordering on incredulity – where generation after generation of Stewards sat in their little chair below the king’s dais without even a hint of lust for higher office. Even accounting for Tolkien’s conservatism, doesn’t this seem a bit farfetched?
Calling oneself a king is a delicate business. Julius Caesar didn't call himself a king, apparantly because of Romn sensitivities. Neither did Augustus. Emperors (a later name) went through the form of attempting to restore the republic, at least as far as Claudius.
Of course, once civil was in Rome broke, people began conniving for power - but not for the title of king; the called themselves Caesar, which was actually a family name!
It's possible that if the line of Mardil would have been broken or overthrown, the new stewards would have figured out it might be a good idea to sit a bit higher; but as it wasn't, the humble bearing became a part of family tradition, and honour (yes, humility is often a matter of pride).
Does this mean that the Balrog actually left the mines of Moria and terrorized the local environs outside Moria as well?
No, I don't think so. Fleeing dwarves, spreading terrifying rumors, would do the trick quite well.
But did you notice the proximity of dates to the destruction of Angmar? Could it be that the dwarves delved deeper, once there were no Orcs west of the mountains to bother them - or is it unlikely that Evil creatues went so far south?
Another thought - would the rumor of the terror lurking in the mountains have prevented the migration North of the Eotheod, or would they have past on the East side of Anduin, Necromancer or no Necromancer? I suppose it depends on the force they had - but I don't think they were quite the power they were in Eorl's time, and assume they would rather pass Lothlorien on the West side.
"He gave out that he was interested in history and geography (at which there was much wagging of heads, although neither of these words were much used in the Bree-dialect)."
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2009, 3:41pm
Post #5 of 15
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Haven't you ever heard that it's better to be the power behind the throne? The stewards had the best of both worlds. They had the total power of kings, without having to fuss over impractical points of royal honor like that which presumably killed the last king. And why risk losing the actual power by going after a dubious title? Denethor tells Boromir that a steward becoming a king would only work in lands with less dignity, not in families with less dignity--that is, he's not saying, "We're too upstanding to do that," but rather, the people of Gondor themselves would not get behind them unless they continue the pretense of merely being stewards to some idealized bloodline that no longer actually exists (or so he hopes.) (I'm glad I didn't have to say that all in one breath!)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2009, 3:48pm
Post #6 of 15
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Recruiting a puppet can backfire. Sometimes they develop minds of their own, and if you've put them nominally in charge of you, they might just take that literally. Mind you, a puppet is better than nothing, if it's the only avenue to power, but the stewards had the ideal situation--patiently waiting for a king that couldn't possibly return (or so they assume.) Why mess that up with an actual person who could all too easily develop ambitions of his own?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 27 2009, 3:53pm
Post #7 of 15
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 That would be HOUSE of less dignity, not place! Sorry! I spun a whole theory on a mistaken memory! And the editing window has closed.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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orcbane
Mithlond
Feb 27 2009, 10:05pm
Post #8 of 15
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But wouldn't the broom catch fire ?
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The King
Earnur the brash hubistic box of hair-brain.
All because his horse shied away. But the Witchking new how to play people. Tolkien uses some pretty extreme extremities sometimes ( He was fond of having people losing extremities too) like the witchking engaging in single combat after his army has been wiped out to the last orc. Now lots of leaders have done similiar in despair, wanting to get themselves killed, but the Witchking is still laughing & trying to win!. Very nervy.
The Stewards
I wondered about that too, no real example of that kind of behavior coming to my mind from real history. In most cases a steward would be pushing for crowning if Earnur wasn't back by dinner, let alone generations. I ascribe it to Tolkien's taking things to the extremity and then losing it fetish.
The Balrog sweeps the Porch
I wondered about that too, also. What Galadriel & whats-his-name say when they greet the Fellowship in the Big Treehouse, made me think the Balrog had ventured out. And there is the fleeing. But why he (or she ?) didn't venture out more, or join Sauron puzzled me as well. I have read some speculation that the Balrog was just serving itself, and as a Ainur, one of the spirits of fire, that makes some sense. I liked how the film-makers developed this thought, and made the Moria Goblins into a Balrog Cult, though this may not apparent in the film alone.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 28 2009, 12:54am
Post #9 of 15
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The elves of Lorien did indeed seem to have some traumatic reason to curse the orcs for stirring up the balrog, and apparently lost Nimrodel and Amroth in the chaos. But you got me to thinking about the sheer flammability of balrogs. Could the elves have fled a fire?
One of the grim realities of having grown up in southern California is knowing the terror of wildfires, and the ugly little fact that one of their chief ways of spreading is through igniting fluffy little animals--yes, squirrels and bunnies and such--who turn into running tinderboxes streaking in panic to the nearest shelter in not-yet burnt thickets or brush. Now, running, panic-stricken dwarves have those long, thick, flying beards that seem practically designed to carry sparks. The Balrog didn't have to step outside of Moria to terrorize the country. The fleeing dwarves would carry his destruction for him.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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orcbane
Mithlond
Feb 28 2009, 2:54am
Post #11 of 15
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Nothing can out-do nature in ingenuity
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Or Dreamdeer in cleverness. A new meaning to a Burnt Dwarf. Shoot him Legolas! Here comes Peter Butt-on-Fire....
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orcbane
Mithlond
Feb 28 2009, 4:22am
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Maybe because no one has a personnel familiarity with the wildfire ecology of the Anduin Vale ?
But lighten up (get it! )
Now as to distances, I think it can really vary dramatically with circumstances. Totally engulfed...my guess is not far, but I haven't seen that myself. If we were allowed to ask questions of the new Director we might ask him. I know he has seen it. But I have seen some partials and they can cover a good piece of ground fast, if they don't stop to roll around. Sometimes its just a panic thing. I know when my foot caught fire I was disconcerted.
Pillar - Fire Proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c7es2pGia0&feature=related
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 28 2009, 5:24am
Post #13 of 15
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All the dwarves have to do is run outside, just a few yards. As soon as they reach nature, the fire itself takes care of the rest. Ever hear the expression, "spreads like wildfire"? It's faster than that. I had a cousin who used to work on a horse-ranch. When the fire came to them, they had to stampede those horses straight down the mountainside--race-horses, going downhill, barely made it out alive. And a wildfire can suck up air so fast it creates fire-tornadoes. Now there's a sight to strike fear in the heart of any elf, dwarf, or man! You can see them miles and miles away, towers of flame in the middle of the conflagration.
As for ecology, California conditions only make it easy to start. Once it gets going, it doesn't need a hot, dry climate. If you have a balrog to start a fire hot enough, it'll burn up any kind of vegetation you could name. I've seen the aftermath of fires so hot they turned cars into puddles; not even the juiciest plants can stand up to that.
Nope, that balrog did not have to set one toasty foot out the door to terrorize the neighborhood.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 1 2009, 7:33am
Post #14 of 15
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The problem with the Balrog ever having been in Lorien is that Galadriel and Celeborn seem to have no idea that this 'terror' they only suspect in Caradhras is actually a Balrog & both of them have certainly been in Beleriand & would know what a Balrog is, at least having heard a good enough desription of one to put one and one together if it had shown itself in Lorien.
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orcbane
Mithlond
Mar 1 2009, 3:15pm
Post #15 of 15
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And conclusive I think. It was probably orcs expanding in general, or out of Moria itself that pushed the Elves back. There may have been some Tolkienesque 'psychic' elements at play too. An evil 'pink noise' radiating out of Moria and giving Galadriel a headache. Probably in the 240-390 KHZ range.
The ramifications of that has also reinforced an idea that has increasingly struck me as incongruous about the elves. That I will post seperately though.
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