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Morthoron
Hithlum
Feb 25 2009, 1:42am
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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part II – The 2nd Age, 1601 – 3441
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This portion of the 2nd Age -- from the point at which Sauron sacks Eregion and overruns Eriador to the point of Isildur’s sword cutting off Sauron’s ring finger -- might as well be titled ‘The Rise and Fall of Numenor’. The vengeful Sauron, after perceiving that Celebrimbor had perceived that which Sauron did not wish him to perceive, destroys Eregion. Interestingly enough, there is a time lag of almost a hundred years (1600 to 1695) before Sauron actually invades Eriador. I suppose Mordor’s supply trains were not running on time, as in Mussolini’s Italy. The Tale of Years specifies that in 1695 ‘Gil-Galad sends Elrond to Eregion’. Two years later, Eregion was laid to waste and Celebrimbor dies, and Elrond retreats to what is to become Imladris.
Did Gil-Galad wait overlong to exert his sovereignty in Eriador, only sending Elrond at the last minute to aid those who ignored his evident mistrust of Annatar/Sauron? Or did Gil-Galad know Eregion was doomed, and sent Elrond to merely aid in an orderly retreat?
Of course, as we all know Tar-Minastir appears with a great navy and drives Sauron from Eriador in 1700 SA, thus marking the ascent of Numenor as an imperial power. Amazing, is it not, that a force of Numenoreans twice defeated Sauron (and a third time, if one counts the Numenorean exiles in the War of The Last Alliance).
What gave the Numenoreans such military superiority? Was it that they were adjacent to Valinor? Were they enhanced by the Valar? Certainly they were given longevity beyond the count of mortal men, but did the Valar in fact enhance them physically? We know Elendil was exceedingly tall, and ‘Unfinished Tales’ speaks at length of the infantry’s marching ability – was this in fact due to the gifts of the Valar?
As far as the history of Numenor itself, as I already stated, Sador reviewed the subject quite thoroughly in a previous section of the Appendices. One thing I do find interesting is the decline of Numenor spiritually and morally even as they ascended in imperial might, which is quite the opposite of the Roman Empire. Then we have Tar-Palantir who repented of his predecessor’s action and eschewed the use of an Adunaic title.
Is it just me, or is Tar-Palantir reminiscent of the enlightened Egyptian pharaoh Anhknaton, just as the story of the Akallabeth mirrors somewhat the sinking of Atlantis? Do you think Tolkien had that in mind as his tale of the downfall evolved?
Of course, we can’t have a discussion of this period of the 2nd Age without considering the appearance of the Nazgul, but I think we can dispense with reiterating their fallacious names as given by the ICE Middle-earth games (Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, et al). Considering Tolkien first mentions them in 2251, many centuries after the making of the One Ring, and the gathering up of the lesser Rings of Power.
The One, the Three, the Seven and the Nine. We know the One and the Three had different properties. Was there any difference between the Seven and the Nine, or did Sauron just have 16 extra Rings to divvy out between Dwarves and Men, giving more to Men because, of course, we are more prone to corruption?
On reflection, I am going to move the discussion of Elendil, Numenoreans in exile, and the Last Alliance to tomorrow’s discussion, which will be a review of the beginning of the 3rd Age. Somehow, it seems to fit better with the 3rd Age rather than the 2nd.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
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(This post was edited by Ataahua on Feb 25 2009, 2:24am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 25 2009, 4:12am
Post #2 of 7
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You know, Gandalf did say something about how the Wise too often followed a course of watchful waiting...but a hundred years? That's downright embarrassing!
As for the strength of human troops, could this be the result of the waning of the elves, and the rise of men? Or maybe it's just supposed to denote the brute strength of the primitive compared to increasing effeteness of the peacetime elf surprised by an unexpected enemy?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 25 2009, 4:28am
Post #3 of 7
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This portion of the 2nd Age -- from the point at which Sauron sacks Eregion and overruns Eriador to the point of Isildur’s sword cutting off Sauron’s ring finger -- might as well be titled ‘The Rise and Fall of Numenor’. The vengeful Sauron, after perceiving that Celebrimbor had perceived that which Sauron did not wish him to perceive, destroys Eregion. Interestingly enough, there is a time lag of almost a hundred years (1600 to 1695) before Sauron actually invades Eriador. I suppose Mordor’s supply trains were not running on time, as in Mussolini’s Italy.
I suppose it says Sauron finished the One Ring 'circa' 1600 in the Second Age, as well as finishing construction on Barad-dur.....
In the Third Age, it takes him 70 years to prepare for fullscale war upon returning to Mordor; here, it takes about 90, so it's really not that hard to understand considering he's moving into a new home & all the clean-up from construction.....
Did Gil-Galad wait overlong to exert his sovereignty in Eriador, only sending Elrond at the last minute to aid those who ignored his evident mistrust of Annatar/Sauron? Or did Gil-Galad know Eregion was doomed, and sent Elrond to merely aid in an orderly retreat?
Thought provoking indeed.....
Since the War began in 1693 & Eregion was not overun until 1695, we must conclude that the original 'front' was further south (Calenardhon aka Rohan is mentioned in UT), or for 2 years only minor skirmishes occured before Sauron invaded Eriador proper (that's what UT does say).
Either Elrond was just lucky to escape the rout when Eregion was overun or he, like Turgon in the Fifth Battle of Beleriand, held back his force from the rash onslaught & was able to retreat in a more orderly fashion with his vanguard plus whatever survivors could be gathered from the rout.
What gave the Numenoreans such military superiority? Was it that they were adjacent to Valinor?
Location, location, location.....
I really doubt that had anything to do with it.
Were they enhanced by the Valar?
Well, they were in age and (possibly) height, but I don't think that was the reason either.
Certainly they were given longevity beyond the count of mortal men, but did the Valar in fact enhance them physically? We know Elendil was exceedingly tall, and ‘Unfinished Tales’ speaks at length of the infantry’s marching ability – was this in fact due to the gifts of the Valar?
I think what really made the Numenoreans superior was building up their numbers through peace & prosperity for 1600 to 3000 years.......
Plus, coming from the best stock of Mankind that had been enriched by communing with the Elves for thousands of years.
Is it just me, or is Tar-Palantir reminiscent of the enlightened Egyptian pharaoh Anhknaton, just as the story of the Akallabeth mirrors somewhat the sinking of Atlantis? Do you think Tolkien had that in mind as his tale of the downfall evolved?
No clue - Never even heard of the guy.
The One, the Three, the Seven and the Nine. We know the One and the Three had different properties. Was there any difference between the Seven and the Nine, or did Sauron just have 16 extra Rings to divvy out between Dwarves and Men, giving more to Men because, of course, we are more prone to corruption?
I actually touched this subject a bit last week (sort of)......
It is definite that Melkor corrupted Gold as a whole in Middle-earth, moreso than silver, and where water has virtually no coruption (Myths Transformed). Could the Dwarves Rings (said to be Gold) be given them especially to pervert their lust for gold?
Of course, most of the other Rings where probably gold too...... 
So, I doubt there was much difference, although I do buy the part about the Dwarf/lust for gold connection.
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Feb 25 2009, 1:32pm
Post #4 of 7
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Is it just me, or is Tar-Palantir reminiscent of the enlightened Egyptian pharaoh Anhknaton, just as the story of the Akallabeth mirrors somewhat the sinking of Atlantis? Do you think Tolkien had that in mind as his tale of the downfall evolved?
No clue - Never even heard of the guy. Ankhnaton (or Akhenaten) was a pharoah of Egypt's 18th Dynasty. He rebelled against the entrenched polytheistic priests and instituted monotheism in Egypt. The art of his reign is decidedly different from any other period in Pharoahic Egypt in that it is naturalistic, and there is affection shown within the royal family, as opposed to the formalized and distant nature of most Egyptian art (the beautiful bust of Ankhnaton's queen, Nefertitti, is a prime example of art in his reign). At his death, monotheism was overthrown and much of his art and buildings were defaced in an attempt to erase his reign.
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 25 2009, 5:01pm
Post #5 of 7
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A few answers, some to the point
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Did Gil-Galad wait overlong to exert his sovereignty in Eriador, only sending Elrond at the last minute to aid those who ignored his evident mistrust of Annatar/Sauron?
As I've said before, I do not think your portrayal of the inner politics is exact.
Or did Gil-Galad know Eregion was doomed, and sent Elrond to merely aid in an orderly retreat?
Orderly retreat? I think that was long ago.
I do think Gil-galad was not powerful enough to defeat Sauron, and he probably knew it. Remember his letter to Tar-Elendil in Aldarion and Erendis.
But the main reason to send Elrond might have been to save Vilya and Narya; even if Gil-galad himself had Vilya already, I expect Celebrimbor did intend to keep one Ring for himself! (I once speculated the three Rings correspond to the three sons of Finwe - but that UUT works only if we accept that Gil-galad was the son of Fingon).
Apart of that - Celebrimbor might have had some other treasures which should be saved (for instance, how did the palantiri get from Feanor to Amandil?); and even Celebrimbor himself might have been persuaded to save himself. I wonder why he didn't?
What gave the Numenoreans such military superiority?
They trained a lot in tyrannising lesser Men (yes, I know that only happened later).
Was it that they were adjacent to Valinor? Were they enhanced by the Valar? Certainly they were given longevity beyond the count of mortal men, but did the Valar in fact enhance them physically? We know Elendil was exceedingly tall, and ‘Unfinished Tales’ speaks at length of the infantry’s marching ability – was this in fact due to the gifts of the Valar?
I seem to remember reading somewhere it was indeed so - but I can't remember where.
If my recollection is indeed based on The Disaster of the Gladden Fields - then it is no proof, because that was after two extra millenia of military practice in fighting Sauron's minions all over Middle-Earth.
Is it just me, or is Tar-Palantir reminiscent of the enlightened Egyptian pharaoh Anhknaton, just as the story of the Akallabeth mirrors somewhat the sinking of Atlantis? Do you think Tolkien had that in mind as his tale of the downfall evolved?
I don't think so - Ankhnaton did not return to the ancient Egyptian belief (unless you assume that he returned back to the belief of Noah...), and what disaster happened to Egypt immediately after his policies were repudiated?
If you superimpose Akhnaton on the Biblical story, and assume he is the Pharoh who raised Joseph to a high position - the decline and punishment come far too slow for Ar-Pharazon.
So no, I see no real comparison.
of course, Atlante is one of the names of Numenor.
The One, the Three, the Seven and the Nine. We know the One and the Three had different properties. Was there any difference between the Seven and the Nine, or did Sauron just have 16 extra Rings to divvy out between Dwarves and Men, giving more to Men because, of course, we are more prone to corruption?
I wonder.
I assume that all Rings could simply enhance their bearer's inner desires, and mete out the power to fulfill it - but the Three are said to be dearer to Celebrimbor's heart, and made only by him. Perhaps Sauron was consulted about the powers other races would want? Or were the sixteen further "essays in the craft" as Gandalf said of the lesser Rings, which Celebrimbor practiced on before making the Three?
Anyway, the Seven were given to dwarves because of the seven Fathers of that race. Men subdivide more, so any number given to them would serve.
"He gave out that he was interested in history and geography (at which there was much wagging of heads, although neither of these words were much used in the Bree-dialect)."
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 25 2009, 6:01pm
Post #6 of 7
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Did Gil-Galad wait overlong to exert his sovereignty in Eriador, only sending Elrond at the last minute to aid those who ignored his evident mistrust of Annatar/Sauron? Or did Gil-Galad know Eregion was doomed, and sent Elrond to merely aid in an orderly retreat?
Who knows? We don't have enough information to go on. Gil-Galad is one of Tolkien's heroes, though, so it is likely that he was not at fault. Perhaps Celebrimbor refused aid until invasion was imminent.
What gave the Numenoreans such military superiority? Was it that they were adjacent to Valinor? Were they enhanced by the Valar? Certainly they were given longevity beyond the count of mortal men, but did the Valar in fact enhance them physically? We know Elendil was exceedingly tall, and ‘Unfinished Tales’ speaks at length of the infantry’s marching ability – was this in fact due to the gifts of the Valar?
Numenor was protected from Morgoth's Taint, and therefore was quasi-Undying. As long as Numenor remained cut off from Middle-earth, the superiority of the First Age was mostly preserved, and without Morgoth or Sauron as an enemy, grew to great glories, unsurpassed in the history of Men. When Numenor chose to become a naval and military power, at first for the best of reasons, i.e. to help Middle-earth, they eventually created armies far superior to anything found in Middle-earth -- but they also gradually destroyed the quarantine that had protected Numenor from Morgoth's Taint.
As I tell this tale, I wonder if Tolkien had America in mind. Here's a land mostly protected from Europe's 19th century decadence, at least in romantic imagery of the time (like James Fenimore Cooper's popular Deerslayer series, or Mark Twain's more literary works, both wildly popular in England). Because of its isolation, America develops mostly unhindered by military threats. Then two World Wars turn it into a military power, presumably for the best of reasons, but also create an American Empire to replace the fast-crumbling British Empire, neither of which impressed Tolkien.
For that matter, perhaps Tolkien was thinking of England itself, which before the 19th century was somewhat isolated from continental Europe, and then towards the end of the 18th century and the early years of the 19th century became the only military power standing in opposition to Napoleon, and after defeating Napoleon expanded the British Empire.
In both cases isolation was romantically seen as a benefit, and military involvement, even for the best of reasons, may have been, in Tolkien's opinion, a moral detriment, the beginning of decadence.
Is it just me, or is Tar-Palantir reminiscent of the enlightened Egyptian pharaoh Anhknaton, just as the story of the Akallabeth mirrors somewhat the sinking of Atlantis? Do you think Tolkien had that in mind as his tale of the downfall evolved?
Akhenaten was far more of a revolutionary leader than Tar-Palantir, who was attempting to restore hundreds of years of tradition. Ar-Pharazon was the revolutionary leader -- which tells us what Tolkien thinks of revolutionaries. Of course, now Akhenaten looks enlightened, the first modern leader, far ahead of his time. But at the time he found no support, and left no legacy, and in later regimes was either ignored or called "the Enemy."
Tolkien did, I think, have Egypt in mind when he invented Numenor and Gondor, and especially the tombs of both realms -- but clearly he did not approve of the Egyptian obsession with tombs, and preferred the simply mounds of the North Kingdom, which in turn reflect the burial mounds found in England. Egypt, then, reflects the decadence of Numenor and Gondor. Akhenaten resembles Tar-Palantir only if we invent an Atlantean predecessor to Egypt, in which monotheism came before polytheism. That's not historically accurate, but it is typical of mythology, in which the Ancients have the same values as the most current realm, while the immediate predecessors have fallen into decadence.
We see this pattern in U.S. politics today, where conservatives invoke the Founding Fathers and strict construction of the Constitution, while Obama invokes Lincoln and claims to be a truer heir to Lincoln than the Republican Party Lincoln helped found. In both cases, contemporary politicians mythologize the past to justify the changes they want to make, claiming those changes are in fact a restoration of old values, and not something radical and new.
So, okay, maybe Tar-Palantir does resemble Akhenaten after all -- but the mythologized version, not the historical version. And maybe Tolkien did have something like that in mind, although it is hard to say for certain.
The One, the Three, the Seven and the Nine. We know the One and the Three had different properties. Was there any difference between the Seven and the Nine, or did Sauron just have 16 extra Rings to divvy out between Dwarves and Men, giving more to Men because, of course, we are more prone to corruption?
My understanding is that the Seven and the Nine were not originally any different from each other; it's the difference between dwarves and men that accounts for how the rings affected them differently. And yes, Sauron was not happy with his experiment with dwarves, because the dwarves did not become his eternal slaves like the Nazgul, although the experiment did help wipe out many of the dwarves. The dwarves became greedy, and roused the interest of creatures like dragons and the Balrog and orcs, as well as driving away potential allies like elves and men.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 25 2009, 8:33pm
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Apart of that - Celebrimbor might have had some other treasures which should be saved (for instance, how did the palantiri get from Feanor to Amandil?);
It is clearly stated they were gifts from the Elves of Tol Eressea to Amandil's House.
The Silmarillion gives the impression that Feasnor made many 'crystals' like the palantiri & perhaps (definitely) Feanor did not hoarde them as closely as the Silmarils at this point in his life.....
Perhaps he gave some to Olwe himself, or his father Finwe had a bunch & gave Olwe some, who in turn gave them to Amandil in return for his faithfulness to the Eldar in the Dark Days of Numemor.
OIf course, all this 'spreading out the wealth' of these seeing stones certainly requires that Feanor made literally dozens and perhaps hundreds of them for them to be given so freely that seven would end up in Middle-earth thousands of years after Feanor was dead & no longer creating them.
What is very odd is that they were not said to be heirlooms of his House, but given to Amandil himself at a time when no ship of the Eldar came to Numenor for many long years - this is indeed hard to reconcile.
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