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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 2:02pm
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Tolkien's elven mothers.
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It occurred to me recently that all of the mortal/immortal unions in Tolkien's stories involve mortal men and immortal women -- Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Aragorn/Arwen, Imrazor/Mithrellas.
This is far from normal in the myths with which I am familiar. In Greek mythology, for example, most heroes were sons of human mothers impregnated by a god, most often Zeus. The one exception I can think of is Achilles, son of the sea-nymph Thetis and a fairly ordinary king named Peleus. In that instance, the son Achilles far outshown his father Peleus. This may be similar to the Imrazor/Mithrellas union, for Imrazor's son Galador was the first Prince of Dol Amroth, and Mithrellas later abandoned Imrazor.
But in the other unions more central to Tolkien's tales, the mortal men are treated as roughly equal to their immortal wives. Beren may not seem like Luthien's equal, but he is treated as the hero of the tale, and Luthien is so faithful to him that she wins his resurrection and gives up immortality for him. Dior, on the other hand, may have been a wonderful guy, but we hear very little about him.
We do hear about Earendil, son of Tuor and Idril, but I don't think he outshines his father. They are, I judge, equals. And Tuor outshines Idril. And Aragorn actually does outshine Arwen, while we hear nothing about Aragorn's son but his name.
I'm not sure what to make of this. Is Tolkien putting women on pedestals, implying that they are angelic beings? Is he giving mortal men too much credit when he implies that immortal women may fall for them? On the other hand, what's wrong with mortal women and immortal men?
Perhaps the way Tolkien flips the usual bonding of mortals and immortals relates to the scarcity of rape in Middle-earth. The Greek gods often raped and impregnated human women, and then left them to fend for themselves. Tolkien's elven men would never do such a thing. So if the unions depended upon the consent of the women, and required them (in most cases) to give up immortality, perhaps Tolkien thought it was more likely for female immortals to make that sacrifice for human men than for male immortals to make the sacrifice for human women. The elven woman gives up her kin for her human husband, and follows him, even into death. But human women cannot follow immortal elven men into immortality.
Also, elves are immortal, but they are not gods. So the very best men can rise to their level and win their love.
I don't know what else to make of it, but I thought it was worth a comment.
(This post was edited by Curious on Feb 17 2009, 2:02pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 2:23pm
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I'm not sure what to make of it myself.
Perhaps I should nitpick about Aeneas (said to be Aphrodite's son), but he also reinforces your theory.
And possibly I should mention Thingol and Melian as another couple in which the husband married "above his station" - could it be that such a marriage is the epitome of ennoblement?
As you've noticed, in other mythologies, gods do not marry ordinary women - they rape them, and then desert them while pregnant. Possibly because Tolkien was a Catholic and believed in marriage, he could not conceive of such a union?
"Dwarves' tongues run on when speaking if their handiwork, they say." - Gloin
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Feb 17 2009, 2:43pm
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The One Opposite Example Helps Prove Your Point
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I'm surprised that you don't mention the relationship (such as it is) between Andreth and Aegnor, described in the Athrabeth. Andreth the mortal woman loved Aegnor, the noble Elf, and according to Finrod, he loved her back, and took no wife of his own kind because of that love. But though Finrod claims that Aegnor turned away from her because the Eldar did not marry during times of war, and he foresees that Aegnor will actually leave Middle-earth before Andreth (which turns out to be true), there is an undercurrent in their discussion of the pity that Aegnor would feel towards Andreth as she grew older that I think reflects something of the different attitudes that our society continues to have about aging of woman versus men. I'd be interested to hear more of what people think of that.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 17 2009, 5:09pm
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Squire's point about the same relationship being written again and again by Tolkien reminded me that this is exactly what happens in Celtic (mainly Welsh)-inspired medieval literature. The woman is usually of higher status, sometimes apparently magical or fairy-like, and the man has to prove his nobility in some way in order to win her. Some commentators (can't remember who, I'm afraid) have suggested that the cult of the Virgin Mary, which became very popular around the same time as these legends spread into the mainstream of European literature, may have been influenced by the same fashion.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 17 2009, 5:20pm
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On the average, women tend to like men a bit rough around the edges. Men tend to like women more polished up. (Not all--I prefer sensitive guys, myself, and married a poet.) Exceptions do occur, as in the case of Aegnor and Andreth. But I can easily see Luthien becoming smitten with this rough, uncombed wildman stumbling into Doriath, so much more interesting than elvish pretty boys who don't have smells.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 6:03pm
Post #8 of 28
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One web site gives Orson Welles as the author of your sentiment: "If there hadn't been women, we'd still be squatting in a cave eating raw meat, because we made civilization in order to impress our girl friends. And they tolerated it and let us go ahead and play with out toys." I have no idea if that quote or its attribution are more accurate than what you remember.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 16-22 for Durin's Folk.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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squire
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 6:59pm
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On August 3, 1983, at the Annual Convention of the National Federation of Business and Professional Women’s Clubs, Reagan ignored his prepared speech, and spoke off the cuff to assure his audience that he was not insensitive to women’s issues: “I happen to be one who believes if it wasn’t for women, us men would still be walking around in skin suits carrying clubs.”
Schlesinger, R. (2008). White House Ghosts: Presidents and Their Speechwriters. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 333. Accessed at http://books.google.com/books?id=iwFckJ03V8YC
I'm sure Welles said his piece as well, although his sense is that men cleaned up their acts on their own to impress women, while Reagan is implying that it's women - more civilized and just plain sweeter - who forced men to shower, shave, act nice, etc.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 17 2009, 7:13pm
Post #10 of 28
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Both beer and civilization seem to have originated at about the same time. It's argued that nomads had to settle down and become grain farmers so they could have their beer.
And in ancient times the brewing of beer was the province of women.
So, yeah, women created civilization, via beer.
That explains the mystery of why beer advertisements always feature women.
"Bibo cerevisiam, ergo sum.”
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Feb 17 2009, 7:17pm
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Tolkien seems to deliberately avoid maternal characters, especially in Lord of the Rings where Bilbo and Frodo's mothers are no longer alive, as are the wives of Theoden and Denethor. As Tolkien's stories largely feature male protagonists, I think it makes dramatic sense for them to be mortals striving for seemingly unattainable immortal partners. I agree with your point that Tolkien portrays women as saintly, and this is a major influence on this topic. Eowyn is an exception, although her desire to marry 'above her station' gets the brush off from Aragorn.
Also in addition to the 'marrying-for-love-not-social-status' themes, I wonder if there is a Freudian angle to this too. For Arwen at least the choice is not presented as between marrying an elven suitor or marrying Aragorn, it's presented as marrying Aragorn and bearing children or continuing her saintly chaste elven life. Perhaps having children could be viewed as accepting one's own mortality, and thus sacrificing immortality is a metaphor for this.
View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Feb 17 2009, 9:11pm
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A different kind of immortality, perhaps
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It could be that some of Tolkien's Elvish mothers seek immortality through their descendents by having children with Men. At least in later ages (i.e., the time of Mithrellas and Arwen), the race of Elves is fading while the race of Men is growing. Not sure how this relates to earlier couples like Beren and Luthien, though, although it is said that Luthien's line would never fail. In fact, all of the Elvish woman - Mortal man couples live on through their descendents long after they themselves have departed Middle-earth one way or another.
Also, for Luthien and Arwen, assuming mortality is a way to share their beloved's fate beyond death. If they'd kept their immortality, they'd have eventually abandoned their husbands forever. As Elves, their spirits would be off to the Halls of Mandos when their bodies died, while the spirits of their mortal husbands would have gone on to some unknown fate. Aragorn, at least, believes that Arwen will join him after she dies: "We are not bound to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." (Arwen, for her part, doubts this, and that may be the most tragic part of her story.)
I'm not sure what Mithrellas' fate is, but I think she eventually resolves this conflict by leaving her mortal family -- perhaps after her husband passes away or her children grow to adulthood. I get the feeling that she didn't want to watch everyone around her grow old and die while she remained forever young.
The Elvish man - Mortal woman couple is kind of like the Highlander, only without the beheadings. 
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 10:20pm
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Thanks for adding that information!
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I vaguely remembered something of the sort, but I'm afraid I was too lazy to look it up. It sounds like it never occurred to Aegnor to give up his immortality, though. As for the Eldar marrying during time of war, didn't Luthien and Idril do exactly that? There definitely seems to be a double standard.
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 17 2009, 10:33pm
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that by elevating Eldar women Tolkien demeans mortal women, who simply aren't worthy of the best mortal men. The Virgin Mary, after all, was a mortal woman chosen by God to bear His Son -- minus the rape, more like the Greek tales than like Tolkien's.
And we know that the relationship of mortal men and immortal women is hardly the only theme that repeats itself in Tolkien's writings. Almost everything he writes about in LotR has at least one, and more likely a whole series of predecessors in the history of Middle-earth. Should we interpret the White Tree as biographical because it shows up so often? How about the Dark Lord? The White City? Giant Spiders? The object everyone desires (Silmaril, Arkenstone, Ring)? The warrior who stumbles because of his pride (Feanor, Turin, Boromir)? The Lady in the Enchanted Forest (Melian, Galadriel)?
I'm more inclined to see the mortal/immortal unions as a reflection of Tolkien's double standard for women. Women leave their kin and follow their men, and it was simply impossible for mortal women to become immortal.
See also Voronwe's summary of the story of Andreth and Aegnor, earlier in this thread, and my response.
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 18 2009, 1:37am
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He's the one immortal male who chooses to become mortal. But Tolkien never tells us that it was for the love of a woman. He presumably outlived his wife by a few centuries, too. Still, that seems like ripe ground for fan fiction!
(This post was edited by Curious on Feb 18 2009, 1:37am)
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squire
Gondolin
Feb 18 2009, 2:43am
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His span and kind were indeterminate before he and his brother made their choices - certainly his father was considered a mortal Man, as the Valar would not let him return to the world after walking in Valinor. He chose not to become immortal. His reasons for his choice to remain mortal are never given, except perhaps a love of worldly power. Neither is the name of his wife given. I think it's safe to assume, whether she predeceased him or not, that his choice was not made for the love of her.
A note buried in Unfinished Tales suggests that Numenorean women had longer life spans than the men, or else gave their lives up less willingly when the end neared. Whether this applies to Elros' wife is unclear, of course, since like him she presumably started out as a woman of the Edain of Middle-earth; and Elros is particularly said to have lived longer than any subsequent King of Numenor. Certainly fan fiction writers have a lot of freedom to develop this theme, since Tolkien doesn't touch it.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 18 2009, 4:29am
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Mind you, I only heard this through a third party, who sent me a quote from HoME relevant to some discussion or other a few years back. But evidently Aegnor did not think that the Valar would grant mortality to just any elf, that they made a rare exception for Luthien, as he explained it to Andreth, and so any common elf who married a mortal faced "eternal widowhood", and he could not bear that.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Feb 18 2009, 6:30am
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I would be interested in seeing that quote
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I'm pretty familiar with the Athrabeth (it is perhaps my favorite piece of writing of Tolkien's) and I don't recall anything quite like that. In fact, my impression has always been that part of why Andreth was so bitter was that Aegnor left her without any explanation. It was left to Finrod to try his best to explain in this debate, many years later when Andreth is an older woman. The closest thing that I think of to what you are referring to is this exchange between Finrod and Andreth:
'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.
'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.
'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'
'But the end is always cruel - for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'
'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.
'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face
mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'
Remember that Finrod is speaking before any marriage between any Elda and human has taken place. He is mostly correct in saying that any such marriage would have to be for a high purpose of Doom. The only exception to that would be Imrazor/Mithrellas, and I have some doubt as to whether he would have kept that one, for that very reason. Finrod, of course had no idea that Luthien and Arwen would join their mates in mortality, or that Tuor would become counted as one of the Eldar.
Edited to add that there is an absolutely lovely illustration of Andreth and Aegnor in Arda Reconstructed. 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Feb 18 2009, 6:32am)
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Jettorex
Menegroth
Feb 18 2009, 2:52pm
Post #19 of 28
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I agree, i think it might stem from Courtly Love and Chivalry ideals of the middle ages.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Jettorex
Menegroth
Feb 18 2009, 3:03pm
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...this got me thinking: What are all the examples of "mixed" unions in Tolkien's world (and there genders)? Such as:
Humans with Elves
Elves with "gods" (Valar)
Humans with gods ?
Are the exmples you list Curious the only ones? Are there any others? What about other mixed unions (like say dwarves and humans)?
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 18 2009, 4:42pm
Post #21 of 28
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Imagine saying that to a terminally ill
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loved one! "Sorry, if I stick around you'll be sick and I'll be well. I would not have you so shamed. And if I leave now, I'll always remember you as you are now, healthy and pretty. Bye now!"
I'm with Andreth on this one. Finrod's explanation does not persuade me at all. Even if Aegnor did not think he could choose mortality, he could have stuck around a few years, a blip in time for him. And he still could have remembered Andreth as she was when she was young, elven memory being what it is.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 18 2009, 5:19pm
Post #22 of 28
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I looked up the quote. It was Gwindor speaking to Finduilas, advising her not to get too enamored of Turin.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 24 2009, 7:50pm
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"...yet in time grey age o’ertook him, husband of immortal wife."
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A mortal man marrying a fey wife is common in Celtic myth. Heartbreak usually follows when the man returns to the mortal world or the woman returns to immortal Faerie.
Here's an illustrative link:
http://www.chalicecentre.net/enchantedbeasts.htm
One might say that, like Beowulf, LOTR mixes the patriarchal Christian with the matriarchal Pagan. But in the end immortal Luthien is dead, rebel Galadriel submits, and Queen Arwen is the last monarch of Faerie. Like in Beowulf, in the end Christianity wins.
BTW, one exception in Greek myth is the story of Tithonus, a Trojan prince, husband of Eos, goddess of the dawn.
In fact he's featured in a recently discovered poem:
You for the fragrant-blossomed Muses’ lovely gifts
Be zealous, girls, and the clear melodious lyre:
But my once tender body old age now
Has seized; my hair’s turned white instead of dark;
My heart’s grown heavy, my knees will not support me,
That once on a time were fleet for the dance as fawns.
This state I oft bemoan; but what’s to do?
Not to grow old, being human, there’s no way.
Tithonus once, the tale was, rose-armed Dawn,
Love-smitten, carried off to the world’s end,
Handsome and young then, yet in time grey age
O’ertook him, husband of immortal wife.
-Sappho, 630 or 612 BC - circa 570 BC.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/.../jun/24/gender.books
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Feb 25 2009, 8:06am
Post #24 of 28
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I only see one marriage in that link.
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And that marriage looks more like the story of Mithrellas than those of Luthien, Idril, or Arwen. More common, it seems to me based on limited knowledge, is the fairy woman who sleeps with a mortal, but does not marry him, as in some versions of the tale of Thomas the Rhymer. There are also tales on the other side of the coin, of fairy men who sleep with mortal women. None of the immortals give up their immortality.
As for Eos and Tithonus, wasn't Tithonus granted immortality? He seems like the plaything of a goddess, not an equal, and certainly not someone for whom the goddess gave up immortality.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Feb 25 2009, 10:17pm
Post #25 of 28
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there is this tale [yes, the MacLeods again!]
Ver 1:
It is said that the fourth chief Ian Ciar MacLeod of Dunvegan (or his father Malcolm the “fat & good”) married a fairy with whom he had a son. On the child’s first birthday the fairy mother had to return to her own folk. Ian loved them both dearly and pleaded for her not to go but she was obliged to fulfill her promise to return. The three of them walked from the village and at a bridge known as Beul-Ath nan Tri Allt (the ford of the three burns, on the road from Dunvegan castle to Edinbane) the fairy rose above her husband and son and dropped a piece of silk saying, “keep this flag and unfurl it to the wind whenever you are in real danger and it will protect you”.
The Fairy Bridge Version:
Once upon a time a fairy married a MacLeod Chief and was permitted to remain with him for 20 years before returning to Fairyland. When the sad day came to part, the Chief took leave of his wife at the Fairy Bridge, three miles from Dunvegan. She gave him the Banner telling him that when he was hard pressed in battle, waving it would bring a host of armed men to his side.
Another version says it was 7 years. Supposedly, the flag can only be unfurled in battle three times, and it has been used twice...
[Other versions of how the Fairy Flag came to the MacLeods don't include a fairy wife, and some don't include fairies at all. The flag truly exists, but Mr. Wace of the Victoria & Albert Museum gives a more plausible (and more interesting, IMO) theory of origin. ]
One for the other side is this:
One of the most well-known songwriters of the Hebrides was Mairi Nic Iain Fhin (Mary, daughter of Fair John). Mairi was also Bard to MacNeill of Barra in the 16th century and it is said that she received her gift of song from the Sidhe. The meeting place of Mairi and her leannan sidhe (fairy lover) is said to be not far from Castlebay, at the mouth of the burn that flows down from Leadaig.
Still, no one gave up immortality for the human.
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