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sador
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 9:57am
Post #1 of 8
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The Numenorean Kingdoms, part VIII - “I am Steward of the House of Anárion”
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A new day, and two more threads for discussion!
- Two? (groan) - Yes, two; as I won't be able to post more until tomorrow night, I'll post both now.
As usual - answer what and when you like, and add anything else I forgot or omitted!
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Let's consider general Earnil. The commander of Gondor’s Southren army, a cousin of the King, bearing a royal name. Newly returned from the Battle of the crossings of Poros, after having defeated the forces of Khand and the Harad. Somewhere on his way back north, news reach him of the tragedy the Northren army suffered – badly defeated by the Wainriders, the King and his Heir among the slain, Minohtar the king’s nephew is leading the retreating army home (his name is mentioned only in UT).
Instead of returning home to the feast of victory, he turns his army north through Ithilien, a land he knows far better than the enemies do. Gathering fugitives from the Northren army he finds the Wainriders about to pounce on Minas Anor, but resting before the attack – actually feasting and revelling, as the last stand of the Gondorians was broken and Minihtar slain. Earnil presses his advantage, attacking and destroying the Easterlings, pursuing them in great slaughter towards the Dead Marshes, which as always welcome the newcomers, who join those there already, sinking below and lighting their own corpse-lights.
Coming home to Minas Anor (or possibly before), he hears the shocking news: contrary to all counsel and to regal appointment, prince Faramir did not stay home as Regent, but joined the army in disguise – and was slain. Instead of being feted for his deeds, and guiding the young King as his senior next kin – Earmil finds himself the natural claimant to the throne, probably looked up to by the nobles and commoners of his country.
As cotumary, the crown of Atanamir was left at Rath Dinen, in the lap of the King’s father; but Earnil is not crowned, as some legal difficulty presents itself; when a message was sent (via the palantir) to Lady Firiel in Arthedain – her husband, young prince Arvedui, clained the crown for himself on her behalf!
Let’s consider the also-ran. Who was prince Arvedui? Was it his own idea to claim the crown? Perhaps he was pressed by his parents, who remembered the words of Malbeth the Seer:
Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a chance will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again.
The Council of Gondor, which has the actual power to decide, is led by the Steward Pelendur, of the house of Hurin. Once again, one wonders about him – did he fight in one of the armies, or did he stay in Minas Anor, supposedly to help prince Faramir? How and when did he find the prince was missing, and what did he feel about that?
So the stage is set for the legal drama of the Third Age. A few questions about Arvedui’s claim:
1. The marriage of Arvedui and Firiel cemented the new friendship and alliance of their fathers, kings Araphant and Ondoher. Nevertheless, when Gondor’s need was dire, it received no help from Arthedain. Did the Gondorians expect help? Did they resent its not being offered?
2. Consider Malbeth’s other well-known prophecy, about the Paths of the Dead. Should Arvedui himself have taken the Paths, coming to Gondor's aid against the Haradrim? Or was this prophecy made only after his claim was rejected, so that it refers to a future king?
3. Is there any special meaning to Firiel’s name?
In making his claim, Arvedui tries riding two horses at once – claiming the crown both on grounds of Isildur’s birthright as Elendil’s firstborn, and of his position as Firiel’s husband. The Council disagrees:
The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anarion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.
4. To my mind, the Council answers quite testily. Was it because of the revival of an ancient insecurity about the right of Anarion’s line, or because Arthedain did nothing to help? Or a bit of both – a resentment towards the highfaluting incompetents of the North, which supported by two High-Elvish powers can barely withstand the attacks of a far-away sorcerer’s realm, while Gondor deals singlehandly with its own sorcerer enemy and two powerful confederations of Dark Men?
5. What was meant by the Council’s cutting: “we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor”? Was there any occasion in which the Salic Law determined the identity of the Kings of Arthedain?
6. Do you think Arvedui’s double argument faulty? Was there any chance of his receiving the crown, had he taken a better lawyer?
7. The law of succession in Numenor was not so clear – even Christopher Tolkien was puzzled by it (in ‘Aldarion and Erendis’, UT page 208, and note 26; see also note 8 to ‘The Line of Elros’). Could anyone explain it properly? Also, in ‘Aldarion and Erendis’ we are told that Tar-Aldarion quite cavalierly changed the Law to suit his daughter. Couldn’t the kings of Gondor do so – or better still, declare formally a return to the law of Elros’ time?
Be that as may, the Council doesn’t even bother to answer Arvedui’s last argument. This was left to the newly-crowned Earnil: “but I do not forget the loyalty of Arnor, nor deny our kinship, nor wish that the realms of Elendil should be estranged. I will send to your aid when you have need, so far as I am able”.
One wonders if Arvedui expected to actually receive aid from Gondor when he called for it, and whether it might have changed his strategy. But thirty years after, when Angmar actually conquered Fornost – Earnil did send his son to aid Arvedui (or as it turned out, his son Aranarth).
Then Círdan summoned all who would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor, and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch-king of Angmar...
The forces of Cirdan and Earnur defeat the Witch-king’s forces, and he turns to flight. His flight is intercepted by the host of Rivendell, led by our popular elf-hero Glorfindel. “Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains”
It is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it... Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
Restraining his horse, Earnur wanted to pursue his for, but Glorfindel says the famous words: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." The two enemies hate each other since: Earnur feels disgraced, and wishes to avenge the humiliation; but on the other hand he is sais to have earned “the chief hatred of the Witch-king”.
8. Who wields the High Command – Earnur, or Cirdan? And where is Aranarth (Arvedui’s son) in this war?
9. Are Glorfindel’s words a prophecy, or is he quoting an existing prophecy already? Who made that prophecy? How did the Witch-king himself know it?
10. Note the difference between the Witch-king’s version: “No living man may hinder me”, and Glorfindel’s “not by the hand of man will he fall”, which Gandalf repeats and qualifies: “if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him” (‘The Siege of Gondor’). Why does Gandalf qualify Glorfindel’s words?
11. Why did Earnur earn the chief hatred of the Witch-king, rather than Glorfindel?
· Note that all this part of the appendices is set in quotation marks, as it was supposedly copied from an existing, earlier source. Any comments on that, or on anything else in this section?
The Wirch-king's hate slept for seventy years, until Earnur succeeded his father. But that will be discussed in the next thread.
"That is a chapter of ancient history which it might be good to recall; for there was sorrow then too, and gathering dark, but great valour, and great deeds that were not wholly vain."
Thus Gandalf. But Elrond was deflating:
"I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories".
We've reached The Grey Havens last week, but the discussion still goes on!
Join us for appendix A, i-iv - the Numenorean kingdoms.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Feb 2 2009, 5:56pm)
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hanne
Menegroth
Feb 1 2009, 5:17am
Post #2 of 8
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And I only have a question! :) About the "hand of man" prophecy. Do you suppose Man was also meant, or was Tolkien too careful about capitalization to have thought that would be ambiguous? It was ambiguous for me the first time through the book. But if Man was meant, the Elves of Rivendell perhaps might have considered sending some more of them (besides the twins) with the Dunedain?
Thanks for all the rest. Sorry no comments. I always found the kings the hardest part of the appendices to get into - it seemed so much happened, but it's all sketched too fast. I'm enjoying your wondering because you've clearly taken the time to think about how these stories might have gone.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 1 2009, 5:38am
Post #3 of 8
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Does Glorfindel only ride white horses?
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Nit: in your later questions here, you refer to Eärnil when you mean his son, Eärnur.
Gondor's need was dire, but received no help from Arthedain. Did the Gondorians resent help not being offered?
Probably, although the text says "neither kingdom was able to send help to the other", because Angmar attacked in the North at the same time that the Wainders attacked in the South.
Should Arvedui himself have taken the Paths of the Dead, coming to Gondor's aid against the Haradrim?
That's a neat idea! Malbeth's other prophecy does seem almost applicable to Arvedui.
Is there any special meaning to Fíriel's name?
I think it means "mortal woman". Can Tolkien's poem, "Firiel", or more likely its revised form, "The Last Ship", from the 1962 Adventures of Tom Bombadil collection, be interpreted to refer to Ondoher's daughter? (See this post for a different interpretation.)
Was the Council's answer testy because ... the highfalutin' incompetents of the North, supported by two High-Elven powers, can barely withstand the attacks of a far-away sorcerer's realm, while Gondor deals singlehandedly with its own sorcerer enemy and two powerful confederations?
Absolutely. As Malbeth said, to choose Arvedui as king would seem "less hopeful". But what "sorcerer" is Gondor dealing with, while the Witch-king is busy in the North?
Was there any occasion in which the Salic Law determined the kingship in Arthedain?
I don't think Tolkien gives us enough information to say whether or not any of the Northern kings' eldest children were daughters.
Was there any chance of Arvedui's receiving the crown, had he taken a better lawyer?
As you say, the laws of Númenórean succession are hard to work out. "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in Unfinished Tales seems to support Arvedui's interpretation -- but who, within the story, wrote that chronicle?
Who wields the High Command -- Eärnur, or Círdan? And where is Aranarth in this war?
They seem to have split their forces, with Círdan leading the attack from the west, and Eärnur coming down from the north. As for Aranarth, he was probably too young to take part in the fighting: he goes on to lead the Dúnedain for 131 years; compare to his grandfather, who ruled for 73 years, and his son, who commanded for 71 years.
How did the Witch-king himself know Glordindel's prophecy?
Word gets around: "many remembered". If the prophecy was not original to Glorfindel, it was at least not widely known before.
Note the difference between the prophecy as stated by Glorfindel, Gandalf and the Witch-king.
The Witch-king overstates things, doesn't he? Eärnur certainly hindered him. So did Aragorn, at Weathertop. As for Gandalf, he's cautious because he knows that prophecies are tricky.
Why did Eärnur rather than Glorfindel earn the chief hatred of the Witch-king?
Glorfindel had been an annoyance for many years, and shows up late to this battle, in which Eärnur has already routed the Witch-king's army, ended his hold on the North.
All this section is set in quotation marks, supposedly copied from an existing, earlier source. Comments?
It's pretty fair to both sides of the inheritance question.
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Join us Jan. 26-Feb. 1 for Appendix A on Númenor, Arnor, and Gondor.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 1 2009, 5:57am
Post #4 of 8
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Tolkien's capitalization was inconsistent.
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He does seem to have had a strategy for capitalization, but not always to have followed it. In recent editions of The Lord of the Rings there has been some attempt to regularize capitalization, drawing on such things as Tolkien's handwritten corrections (also inconsistent) in his own copies of the book.
As for the case of "man" in Glorfindel's prophecy, it might depend on when this chronicle from the Red Book was written, and whether it was modified at all by later scribes like Findegil who knew how things worked out. For that matter: did writing systems in Middle-earth have a method equivalent to capitalization for proper names?
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Join us Jan. 26-Feb. 1 for Appendix A on Númenor, Arnor, and Gondor.
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 1 2009, 7:10am
Post #5 of 8
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Ouch! Thanks! Is there any kindly Admin who might fix this?
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Nit: in your later questions here, you refer to Eärnil when you mean his son, Eärnur.
See this post for a different interpretation. Yes, I also made the The Last Ship connection, and wondered if and how to connect it to Firiel; I thought of the palantir in Elostirion, and of her fate after Arvedui perished. (Or before? If we want to see Arvedui as a possible Aragorn, could Firiel have something Arwen-like in her?)
But I like dna's theory better. Thanks for that link! If nothing else, it fits better with the chronology, especially once the preceding poem is Frodo's Dreme.
But what "sorcerer" is Gondor dealing with, while the Witch-king is busy in the North?
The Necromancer. Although he isn't a military power in himself yet, he is a shadow and a threat to Gondor - and although nobody realises that yet, a far more powerful and danger one than his minion of Angmar.
As for Aranarth, he was probably too young to take part in the fighting: he goes on to lead the Dúnedain for 131 years; compare to his grandfather, who ruled for 73 years, and his son, who commanded for 71 years.
He's clearly to young for the High Command, as Aragorn is stated to be have the longest life of his family since king Arvegil, and he reached only he age of 190 - Aranarth couldn't have been more than 58 at this moment! However, I'm pretty sure he was in the fighting, even if not as a general! Remember he is said to have been his father's eldest son, and was with Cirdan when Fornost was taken.
Glorfindel had been an annoyance for many years, and shows up late to this battle, in which Eärnur has already routed the Witch-king's army, ended his hold on the North.
Not so loud! You might annoy the Glorfindel fans! 
"That is a chapter of ancient history which it might be good to recall; for there was sorrow then too, and gathering dark, but great valour, and great deeds that were not wholly vain."
Thus Gandalf. But Elrond was deflating:
"I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories".
We've reached The Grey Havens last week, but the discussion still goes on!
Join us for appendix A, i-iv - the Numenorean kingdoms.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 1 2009, 2:52pm
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Since 1965, that is. Before that, he died at age 190, as you state.
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Join us Jan. 26-Feb. 1 for Appendix A on Númenor, Arnor, and Gondor.
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Ataahua
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Feb 1 2009, 11:40pm
Post #7 of 8
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Given that 'Earnil' is mentioned throughout your post,
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I'm not sure which mentions to change.
PM me the corrected text and I'll update your post for you.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 2 2009, 7:34am
Post #8 of 8
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Another one! And I call myself an editor?
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I should have noticed the inconsistency - in Appendix A he is mentioned to line to 190 years, and in Appendix B - 210!
(Houghton-Miflin, 1978 edition - but it was a reprint of the 1965 one).
Isn't this a bit more obvious than Belecthor II? Oh well, this is what comes of blithely assuming PJ and crew got it wrong, when Aragoen says he's 87...
"That is a chapter of ancient history which it might be good to recall; for there was sorrow then too, and gathering dark, but great valour, and great deeds that were not wholly vain."
Thus Gandalf. But Elrond was deflating:
"I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories".
We've reached The Grey Havens last week, but the discussion still goes on!
Join us for appendix A, i-iv - the Numenorean kingdoms.
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