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sador
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 8:00am
Post #1 of 29
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The Numenorean Kingdoms, part II - Love the Peredhil
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Starting with the second paragraph, Tolkien describes the three unions of the Eldar and Edain: Beren and Luthien (which we know about already), Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen, in which “the long-sundered branches of the Half-Elven were reunited and their bloodline was restored”.
1. Doesn’t this sound as a fulfillment of something long-hoped for? What’s the big deal about this restoring of the bloodline?
2. Prince Imrahil is said to have elven-blood in his veins (‘The Last Debate’), but apparantly that isn’t enough to merit the title of half-elven – even though it is far more recent than Aragorn’s elvish ancestry. Why this discrimination?
3. Were there other unions of Men and Elves we don’t know of? What would be the fate of their issue? Why?
Actually, the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen is the second marriage of couples with mixed blood. The first was that of Earendil and Elwing, who were those who saved Middle-earth from Morgoth at the end of the First Age.
4. This must be anything but coincidental! Any thoughts on the connection between the two? Note that the marriage of Earendil and Elwing is necessary for the delivery from Morgoth (without the Silmaril, Earendil wouldn’t have made it to Valinor), while Aragorn marries Arwen after all their political hopes are fulfilled.
Aside – in the footnote refeing to Idril’s position as the daughter of Turgon, Tolkien mentiones two out of five references to Gondolin: Elrond’s identifying of Glamdring and Orcrist in The Hobbit (with no hint of his own connection to Gondolin), and Gimli’s song in Moria. Bilbo’s threat to Gollum with Sting might be naturally omitted, and so might Galadriel’s words “ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains” (although it is interesting that Gimli’s song is prefered to them) – but one should expect Elrond’s words: “Earendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall”!
5. Any thoughts on this omission? Or is it just a mistake?
So Elrond is connected to both cataclysmic events, the fall of Thangorodrim, and that of Barad-dur – and in near-diametrically opposed ways: he symbolised both Elves and Men, and the need for a world free of Morgoth’s shadow, which sent his parents on their mission to the Valar; and it was him who sent Frodo to Mordor, and kept his daughter safe for the Return of the King – making what would be a father’s ultimate sacrifice, losing her forever, even beyond the circles of the world – for the defeat of Sauron’s shadow. And with him went the last of the Elves, resigning Middle-earth to the dominion of Men.
Elrond, however, is only the eldest of the Peredhil; his brother Elros is one too.
This finally explains Aragorn’s opaque words in the Houses of Healing: “Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power”, which I don’t believe I connected on my first readings to Legolas’ mention (in ‘The Last Debate’) of Aragorn being of Luthien’s seed on the one hand, and to Elrond’s being “one of those peoples... who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors” (in ‘A Short Rest’). Arguably, Halbarad calling Elladan and Elrohir “the brethen” (‘The Passing of the Grey Company’) could be another hint – but it could easily be explained otherwise.
6. Am I just dumb, or did you find this confusing too? Or are you simply not of the type which worries about such riddles?
The Valar gave Elrond and Elros the choice which kindred they should be judged by. Elrond chose to belong to the Elvenfolk, while Elros chose to be a Man – a King of Men, but still mortal. He led the survivors of the Three Houses of the Edain to Numenor, the land the Valar (which the Red Book finally names "the Guardians of the World").
The Numenoreans were granted a long span of life, and grew in power and riches; but one Ban was laid on them, the Ban of the Valar – not to sail too far west, and not to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands – “For though a long span of life had been granted to them... they must remains mortal, since the Valar were not permitted to take from them the Gift of Men (or the Doom of Men, as it was afterwards called)”.
As far as I remember, the Valar are mentioned in LotR four times: in ‘The Ride of the Rohirrim’, Theoden is compared to “Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young” (who is called ‘a god of old’), and in ‘Minas Tirith’ Denethor refers to “the wild kine of Araw”, which we learn later in this appendix is the same Vala.
But twice they are invoked, in their role as Guardians: in Ithilien, when Damrod says to Mablung: “May the Valar turn him (the mumak) aside!”, and in Gandalf’s blessing to Aragorn at the crowning: “may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!”.
In a previous discussion, I noted that Wormtongue is the only person in LotR who speaks of praying (the riddle; see dernwyn's response), but it seems that calling the Powers happens quite a bit – the Elves and Sam invoke Elbereth, and the Barrow-wight’s incantation mentions ‘the dark lord’, persumably refering to the second coming of Morgoth.
In this appendix, they have been mentioned already with the two trees, and in their defeat of Morgoth – about which Elrond has said: “I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories”.
7. Was this victory fruitless? After all, the Valar defeated Morgoth the Great Enemy!
Even more interesting is the power of the Valar as described here: they can give the Peredhil (the half-elven) the choice whether to be mortal or immortal, but while Elros’ choice is irrevocable indeed – Elrond’s children still might chose mortality.
8. Is this a part of the Gift of Men, an irrevocable stigma going down the generations? Why do the Valar have the right of judgement in this, and why is it so limited? Note that in the Silmarillion (when the Valar debate Earendil and his mission), Manwe claims Iluvatar gave him the right of judgement in such cases.
9. There seems to be no question of immortality in the house of Dol Amroth – can only the Eldar possibly grant their children this choice?
Perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that the Numenoreans become obsessed with the question of Death, and the latter kings resent their forefather’s choice. Consider Faramir’s description of the decline of the House of Anarion (‘The Window on the West’):
“Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and counted names in old rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in ages halls and mused on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. ”
This cannot literally apply to the kings of Numenor (apart from perhaps Ar-Pharazon, no king was childless), but it seems very apt to the Numenorean search for an immortal life. But as a rule, Faramir seems to be affected very deeply by his Numenorean inheritance. The blood of Numenor runs true in him (Gandalf’s words in ‘Minas Tirith’), he scrupulously observes the Standing Silence, and he often dreams of its fall (as he describes to Eowyn) – even his reverence of Gandalf and of elves hints at that! So let’s consider his words, as if they described Numenor:
10. When the old lords “ask questions of the stars” – do they invoke Elbereth? Truly, or in a preverted way? Or are they simply dabbling in sorcery, like with the strong elixirs? And what might the ‘heraldry’ mean?
11. Could the Valar indeed prolong a Man’s life, and to what extent? Could Sauron, with his Rings of Power – or without them, for example with the Mouth of Sauron?
12. Could the Undying Lands do so? It seems out of the question – the Valar themselves deny it in the ‘Akallabeth’, and I can’t conceive of a place, hallowed as it may be, preverting the Gift of Iluvatar. But then, why the Ban on sailing West?
Next time, we will briefly glance at the History of Numenor and its Downfall. And tomorrow, we’ll begin our discussion of the Kingdoms in Exile.
"That is a chapter of ancient history which it might be good to recall; for there was sorrow then too, and gathering dark, but great valour, and great deeds that were not wholly vain."
Thus Gandalf. But Elrond was deflating:
"I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories".
We've reached The Grey Havens last week, but the discussion still goes on!
Join us for appendix A, i-iv - the Numenorean kingdoms.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 4:17pm
Post #2 of 29
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It dawns on me that the repeated references to the "End of Faerie" in recent threads seems to be evolving into an assumption that all elves left Middle Earth. Not so. Not all elves sail west, but those who don't will "dwindle into a rustic, secretive folk" (I'm not sure if I quoted that precisely, but you get the drift.) The time of overt elven kingdoms, with which men have diplomatic relations, has ended. Plenty of elves have stuck around, but in a "faded" capacity. They're no longer the movers and shakers of the world. Men now rule, and may heaven help us!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 4:28pm
Post #3 of 29
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I gather that the ban on sailing West was for the protection of men. There's a reference somewhere (please somebody help me out on this--my brain feels frozen today with the sudden temperature-drop) to the Undying Lands aging men too fast, overloading them with beauty and shortening their years. Needless to say, if their motive for wanting to arrive is longevity, this would only make the elf-envy worse!
Of those pure-blooded mortals allowed to go, we have: - Frodo, who is dying anyway without healing from the West, whose great deeds justify replacing a hastened death from pain with a hastened death from beauty,
- Bilbo, who has already lived too long and for whom death would be a release,
- Sam, who waits until he's led a long life and fulfilled all mortal obligations before he sails west, and
- (Stepping away from the Ringbearers) Gimli, who's elderly desire to see Galadriel one last time may be interpreted as a deathbed wish (we don't even know if he ever actually set foot on shore, or if Galadriel sailed out to meet him and he died on board the ship in her arms.)
We have a parallel in the radiance of the Silmarillion, which rapidly ages Beren and Luthien (once Luthien embraces mortality) so that Beren's return from the dead is short-lived indeed.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 4:36pm
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I always wondered about Prince Imrahil. Plainly the lists of official Peredhil only include great dynastic families without any irregularities. Imrahil's ancestors might have been minor nobility, but the elf in question was only a handmaiden who got lost. And there was something fishy about the union, if she ran away at the first opportunity.
Still, we don't know if this elf/human cross actually had a choice offered to him, maybe privately, in a dream or a vision. Being raised among men, and perhaps resenting the mother who had abandoned him, he might well have decided to join the ranks of mortals.
In one way or another, this story hints at dark things that Tolkien might have been too gentlemanly to spell out explicitly.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Elros
Ossiriand
Jan 27 2009, 7:11pm
Post #5 of 29
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1. Doesn’t this sound as a fulfillment of something long-hoped for? What’s the big deal about this restoring of the bloodline? The bloodline of the Half-Elven is the bloodline of Numenor and subsequently the bloodline of all the High Men of Middle Earth, a bloodline that was failing as it became mingled with lesser men, I might add. Now, with the joining of Arwen and Aragorn, Men get to hit the reset button.
2. Prince Imrahil is said to have elven-blood in his veins (‘The Last Debate’), but apparantly that isn’t enough to merit the title of half-elven – even though it is far more recent than Aragorn’s elvish ancestry. Why this discrimination? Without knowing exactly what Imrahil's ancestry was, could it be the Elven blood in his veins wasn't High Elven. Also, wasn't Half-Elven an actual title given, rather than a description of one's heritage? I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but I might be losing my mind.
6. Am I just dumb, or did you find this confusing too? Or are you simply not of the type which worries about such riddles? You are most certainly not dumb, and I don't ever really worry about these things too much.
7. Was this victory fruitless? After all, the Valar defeated Morgoth the Great Enemy! It wasn't the first time the Valar had defeated Morgoth, and evidently, won't be the last either. The Valar's defeat of Morgoth caused the ruin of Beleriand and still didn't defeat evil in Middle Earth. Plus, if you look at it from the Noldor's perspective, they were the cause for the War of the Wrath, they weren't able to defeat Morgoth without the Valar, most of their best blood was spent, and they never did recover the Silmarils.
8. Is this a part of the Gift of Men, an irrevocable stigma going down the generations? Why do the Valar have the right of judgement in this, and why is it so limited? Note that in the Silmarillion (when the Valar debate Earendil and his mission), Manwe claims Iluvatar gave him the right of judgement in such cases. Eru has to work through somebody. I think Ar-Pharazon is a perfect example of why Elros' descendants weren't given a similar choice to Arwen. If you had a nation of Men where members of the royal family were allowed to become immortal and live forever while you whithered and died, the revolution in Numenor would have made the Russian Revolution seem like recess. The envy would be too unbearable.
11. Could the Valar indeed prolong a Man’s life, and to what extent? Could Sauron, with his Rings of Power – or without them, for example with the Mouth of Sauron? I don't think it's a coincidence Aragorn lived as long as he did. I think Bilbo and Gollum are examples of Sauron prolonging a Man's life as well.
12. Could the Undying Lands do so? It seems out of the question – the Valar themselves deny it in the ‘Akallabeth’, and I can’t conceive of a place, hallowed as it may be, preverting the Gift of Iluvatar. But then, why the Ban on sailing West? I know it says somewhere, either the Akallabeth or in the LOTR Appendices themselves, the Valar laid the ban on Numenor because they foresaw the envy the Men would have for the Eldar's immortal life of bliss in paradise.
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hanne
Menegroth
Jan 28 2009, 1:18am
Post #6 of 29
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Of those pure-blooded mortals allowed to go, we have:
1. Frodo, who is dying anyway without healing from the West, whose great deeds justify replacing a hastened death from pain with a hastened death from beauty,
2. Bilbo, who has already lived too long and for whom death would be a release,
3. Sam, who waits until he's led a long life and fulfilled all mortal obligations before he sails west, and
4. (Stepping away from the Ringbearers) Gimli, who's elderly desire to see Galadriel one last time may be interpreted as a deathbed wish (we don't even know if he ever actually set foot on shore, or if Galadriel sailed out to meet him and he died on board the ship in her arms.)
Did not those four sail to the Lonely Island, not to the actual shores of Aman itself? I'm not sure how it all worked with the changed geography, but if the relationship between the two was the same someone reaching the Island would still be east of the Pelori and not see/touch Aman itself. And I think the Valar didn't live on the Island - not the same as going to Taniquital.
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hanne
Menegroth
Jan 28 2009, 1:25am
Post #7 of 29
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confused about the choice but not about longer life
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Without knowing exactly what Imrahil's ancestry was, could it be the Elven blood in his veins wasn't High Elven. Also, wasn't Half-Elven an actual title given, rather than a description of one's heritage? I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but I might be losing my mind.
That's what I thought too: Perhaps it doesn't count because the Elves involved weren't Eldar or the Men weren't Edain or both. (ie so it isn't a "union of Eldar and Edain")
8. Is this a part of the Gift of Men, an irrevocable stigma going down the generations? Why do the Valar have the right of judgement in this, and why is it so limited? Note that in the Silmarillion (when the Valar debate Earendil and his mission), Manwe claims Iluvatar gave him the right of judgement in such cases. Eru has to work through somebody. I think Ar-Pharazon is a perfect example of why Elros' descendants weren't given a similar choice to Arwen. If you had a nation of Men where members of the royal family were allowed to become immortal and live forever while you whithered and died, the revolution in Numenor would have made the Russian Revolution seem like recess. The envy would be too unbearable.
Did all three of Elrond's children get the choice of Luthien? I had thought only Arwen got it, and that because she had fallen in love with Aragorn. So I'd thought that the choice is only given when a marriage is involved. So I wouldn't expect any of Elros' descendants to be able to choose the doom of the Elves unless they fell in love with an Elf who returned their love. But then, as you say, that doesn't fit if Imrahil had Elvish ancestors, unless Dreamdeer is right and that wasn't a case of love. And what's more, Aragorn would have been allowed to become an Elf as much as Arwen to become mortal. Oh dear.
11. Could the Valar indeed prolong a Man’s life, and to what extent? Could Sauron, with his Rings of Power – or without them, for example with the Mouth of Sauron? I don't think it's a coincidence Aragorn lived as long as he did. I think Bilbo and Gollum are examples of Sauron prolonging a Man's life as well.
I agree. Both the Valar and Sauron did this. Elros and his descendants were granted life much longer than other men, and Gollum got prolonged hundreds of years too.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 28 2009, 1:43am
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Doesn’t this sound as a fulfillment of something long-hoped for? What’s the big deal about this restoring of the bloodline?
I don't know but it is interesting. (Bear with me here I gotta write this out)
Beren in full blooded--of the Man race and Luthien is Elven/Maia which seems to makes Dior half Man and half Elven/Maia (or a quarter each), right?
Dior + Nimloth (full blooded E) have Elwing who is "half" Man, Elven, Maia and "half" Elven (which seems to make her more than "half"=elven!)
Tuor(M)+Idril(E)=Earendil (M/E)
Then Earendil (half man/half elven)+ Elwing (Man, more than half-elven,Maia)=Elrond and Elros who are Men, Elven, and Maia.
Elrond + Celebrian=Arwen who is Half -Elven on her mom's side then Half-Elven (plus), Man, and Maia on her dad's side.
I can see that Tuor and Idril are a true union of the Eldar and Edain but why is Luthien's Maia-half not figured in here? How does that impact the Eldar/Edain union concept of Beren and Luthien?
And Elros-- who did he marry? Is his the only Elvish blood that can be claimed by Aragorn? Would that be balanced out by Aragorn being a bit Elvish and alot Man, while Arwen would seem to be a tad "man" a lot Elven, and a bit Maia?
(This post was edited by batik on Jan 28 2009, 1:45am)
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Elros
Ossiriand
Jan 28 2009, 4:27am
Post #10 of 29
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Half-elven isn't an exact measurement of their bloodline, it's a title given specifically to Elrond and Elros, but has been generalized to other individuals resulting from one of the 3 unions of Elves and Men, so to answer your question, it doesn't effect anything concerning Beren and Luthien. You are correct, however, that there are many strains in characters such as Arwen.
I don't know if we ever get a name for the name of Elros' wife, at least that I'm aware of.
Aragorn can claim every piece of Elvish blood that Arwen can claim, since he's the descendant of Elros, her uncle. He's got Maia blood in veins, just as she does. Of course, there are just a few more generations separating Melian from Aragorn than there is from Arwen. I seem to recall reading an actual breakdown of Arwen's ancestry somewhere, but I don't recall where now.
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Elros
Ossiriand
Jan 28 2009, 4:34am
Post #11 of 29
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Another reason the descendants of Elrond got to decide which race to belong to while the descendants of Elros did not comes back to the initial choice Elrond made. Eventually, Elrond's children and the other elves had to make a choice whether to remain in Middle Earth and suffer its toils and weariness or sail away to the Undying Lands and live in immortal bliss. Basically they had to decide whether to follow daddy or not. The descendants or Elros, already being mortal mean prone to natural aging and death, faced no such choice.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 28 2009, 6:48am
Post #12 of 29
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I think it's B&L's blood, not just Elven blood.
3. Were there other unions of Men and Elves we don’t know of? What would be the fate of their issue? Why?
I would say yes - but we don't know. Tolkien says that the answer is 'no', in some places, but implies 'yes' in others. The fact is that he's ambiguous.
7. Was this victory fruitless? After all, the Valar defeated Morgoth the Great Enemy!
Did they? I think there's considerable evidence that Melkor ultimately won! 
8. Is this a part of the Gift of Men, an irrevocable stigma going down the generations? Why do the Valar have the right of judgement in this, and why is it so limited? Note that in the Silmarillion (when the Valar debate Earendil and his mission), Manwe claims Iluvatar gave him the right of judgement in such cases.
The Gift of Men is a big part of the problem. It just doesn't work. The Silmarillion fails because of it.
9. There seems to be no question of immortality in the house of Dol Amroth – can only the Eldar possibly grant their children this choice?
They might not be playing with the same rules at all. The Choice of the Peredhil may apply only to Eärendil, Elwing, and their descendants.
10. When the old lords “ask questions of the stars” – do they invoke Elbereth? Truly, or in a preverted way? Or are they simply dabbling in sorcery, like with the strong elixirs? And what might the ‘heraldry’ mean?
I think they invoke Elbereth but in a perverted way. I don't think the elixirs are sorcery either; they may be simply chemistry, or they may invoke one of the other Valar, again in a perverted way.
11. Could the Valar indeed prolong a Man’s life, and to what extent? Could Sauron, with his Rings of Power – or without them, for example with the Mouth of Sauron?
Apparently - again, a stumbling block with the Sil and UT.
12. Could the Undying Lands do so? It seems out of the question – the Valar themselves deny it in the ‘Akallabeth’, and I can’t conceive of a place, hallowed as it may be, preverting the Gift of Iluvatar. But then, why the Ban on sailing West?
Well, conventional medicine can prolong a man's life, although only so far. I would imagine that living in Aman might slow aging.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 28 2009, 6:51am
Post #13 of 29
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It is implied that B&L died of accelerated old age, but never said explicitly, and the explanation does not make sense from a mythological standpoint. Tolkien, obviously, was thinking in terms of cursed objects, like Antvari (Alberich)'s ring in Norse Mythology, but the curse was something that Mandos doomed to the Noldor. It doesn't apply to them, Lúthien being a Sinda and Beren an Adan (maybe in BoLT where Beren is a Noldo it does, but then he's not humanly mortal either).
It's a detail that Tolkien never completely thought out.
The paleobotanist is back!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 28 2009, 6:59am
Post #14 of 29
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Arwen's not "Half-Elven" on her mom's side-she's "'Full". (and I did get what you said about the title vs. blood measurement)
I would think (in human terms but it's been a long time since Biology 1401!) that since so many generations passed between Elros and Aragorn that Aragorn's Elven "blood" would be quite...diluted?
Arwen's ancestry--that's a snap compared to Aragorn's!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 29 2009, 12:03am
Post #15 of 29
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I speculate that the sense that Tolkien intended was that, like the Undying Lands, the intensity of the beauty of the Silmarils is too great for mortals. That the rapid aging of Beren and Luthien at this point isn't a curse at all, but too much blessing, hastening them on to the Gift of Men. If the "withering" of mortals in the Undying Lands does in fact mean aging, then this detail about B&L would make for consistency, not a slip.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 29 2009, 5:59am
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The blood would be continually diluted only if the population it were breeding into were infinitely large.
With each generation, the genes of someone from outside of the royal line of Elros would be added to the next generation. However, if the royal line has more than one child per generation (and population demographics implies that they must), then royal genes are getting added to the population at large with every generation as well. It isn't long before Elros' genes start coming back into the royal bloodline from the outside as well.
Of course, the other consequence of this is that pretty soon everybody in Númenor will be a blood descendant of Elros!
The paleobotanist is back!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 29 2009, 6:03am
Post #17 of 29
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I doubt that Tolkien ever imagined Lúthien as being a decrepit old lady.
I suspect that the withering of mortals that he imagined was more of a spiritual restlessness. Aragorn passes on willingly, of course, and Arwen shows no signs of aging until after her husband's death either. I suspect Tolkien envisioned the same for B&L.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 29 2009, 2:18pm
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I think the remaining elves will literally fade
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into the rocks and hills, becoming wraith-like creatures, although in most cases not evil ones. This happens relatively quickly; when Arwen returns to Lothlorien to die it seems deserted.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 29 2009, 4:12pm
Post #19 of 29
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I've known some truly beautiful old crones in my day. I think I'm pretty good myself, at 53, and hope to improve with age. Age highlights whatever expressions we have made a habit of. Have you ever seen an elder who has spent her whole life smiling with kindheartedness? The lines etched on such a face really are a thing of beauty!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 29 2009, 5:28pm
Post #20 of 29
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People as they age are subject to a lot of nasty ailments associated with bodily degradation that, again, I just don't see Tolkien subjecting B&L to. I doubt that Lúthien suffered from back problems, osteoporosis, loss of hearing/vision, teeth falling out, or any of a number of other problems. She might have had silver hair and a kindly, creased face, and as you say that can still be beautiful, and I'm sure she could still dance as spryly as she had ever done.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 4:20am
Post #21 of 29
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Like her descendant, Tar Elessar (or, for that matter, Sophia Loren) I am sure that she died looking simultaneously old, young, and in the prime of life.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 5:23am
Post #22 of 29
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 26-Feb. 1 for Appendix A on Númenor, Arnor, and Gondor.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 5:30am
Post #23 of 29
(1975 views)
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Here's the quote that you sought: "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth."
Does "pass with him" require simultaneous departure? Had Elrond's sons long since determined to abandon him?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 26-Feb. 1 for Appendix A on Númenor, Arnor, and Gondor.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 5:34am
Post #24 of 29
(1935 views)
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Sorry for the miswording. I meant that she's one of those people who just gets better with age.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Jan 30 2009, 1:46pm
Post #25 of 29
(1942 views)
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Thank you, N.E. Brigand! I think it wasn't mandatory for the Elrond's children to depart with him at the same time. His sons stayed but they had the option to stll leave ME later, didn't they? And Arwen could have left before Elrond I think but I'm not sure about this, I'm mixing the movie with the book at the moment 
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on January 30 on the Main board for a visit at the "Prancing pony"!
I believe
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I was looking for the exact quote but meanwhile for a quick reference: 
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