|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 22 2009, 6:46am
Post #1 of 16
(1482 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Grey Havens IV - "Time went on, and 1421 came in"
|
Can't Post
|
|
Onward with Kel's posts for this chapter:
This section opens with news of Frodo again being ill in March and that he hides it from Sam and Rosie as they’re expecting their first child. Elanor is born on March 25th.
“Frodo was ill again in March, but with a great effort he concealed it, for Sam had other things to think about. The first of Sam and Rosie’s children was born on the twenty-fifth of March, a date that Sam noted.”
‘Well, Sam,’ said Frodo, ‘what’s wrong with the old customs? Choose a flower name like Rose. Half the maidchildren in the Shire are called by such names, and what could be better?’
… what about elanor, the sun-star, you remember the little golden flower in the grass of Lothlórien?’”
When Elanor is six months old Frodo tells Sam that Bilbo’s 131st birthday is approaching and asks him to accompany him on a short journey of “not more than a fortnight”.
“‘Well, Sam,’ said Frodo, ‘I want you to see Rose and find out if she can spare you, so that you and I can go off together. You can’t go far or for a long time now, of course,’ he said a little wistfully. [We get a glimpse here that Sam too will one day sail over the sea; how did you feel about this?] … I wish I could go all the way with you to Rivendell, Mr. Frodo, and see Mr. Bilbo… I am that torn in two.’”
Questions
1. Why do you think the Professor had Sam and Rosie’s oldest child born on the anniversary of the Ring’s destruction?
2. Did you realise that was why Sam ‘noted’ the date of his daughter’s birth on your first reading?
3. “What’s wrong with the old customs?” This would be a fairly accurate description of the Professor’s views, do you agree with it?
4. Why do you think Sam assumes that Frodo was going to Rivendell?
5. Frodo tells Sam “But you will be healed.” Was it apparent to you that Sam too carried an unhealed wound at this time? Was this yet another reason why Frodo had to leave?
6. Any other comments?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 19-25 for "The Grey Havens".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Jan 22 2009, 7:45am
Post #2 of 16
(1140 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Why do you think the Professor had Sam and Rosie’s oldest child born on the anniversary of the Ring’s destruction?
It's Lady Day, and more importantly, the begining of the tax year (as this was pre-Gregorian times). Small wonder Sam noted the date!
2. Did you realise that was why Sam ‘noted’ the date of his daughter’s birth on your first reading?
Can't tell - my first reading was so long ago! But it would be like me to realise, and if not immediately - to think of this phrase. So I guess I did.
3. “What’s wrong with the old customs?” This would be a fairly accurate description of the Professor’s views, do you agree with it?
Do I? Yes, of course.
All our kids have two names, and the first is always a Biblical name with some family connotation - we refuse to saddle our kids with our whims, only in their middle name.
And the middle names are pretty conservative and uninspired too.
4. Why do you think Sam assumes that Frodo was going to Rivendell?
Well, even with his eavesdropping technique, he didn't overhear Elrond's last words in 'Many Partings'!
And it's the reasonable place to go, is it not? Apart from Bilbo being there, it is also where Bilbo retired, and Frodo himself was healed. And it's the best place in the world to be in (as Sam himself said that chapter, probably ignoring or subconsiously repressing Frodo's answer about the Sea).
5. Frodo tells Sam “But you will be healed.” Was it apparent to you that Sam too carried an unhealed wound at this time? Was this yet another reason why Frodo had to leave?
He doesn't carry an unhealed wound at the moment; he will take one at the parting (compare to Gimli's words in 'Farewell to Lorien').
6. Any other comments?
First my kids were ill, and now my wife. I fear I'm the next in line.
"Wasted?" I says, "I wouldn't call it that" - Sam
(This post was edited by sador on Jan 22 2009, 7:46am)
|
|
|
simplyaven
Hithlum
Jan 23 2009, 4:08am
Post #3 of 16
(1144 views)
Shortcut
|
Annunciation of the Theotokos when an angel appeared and told the Holly Mother she will conceive and have the God's son. I find the dates in LOTR quite meaningful and very rarely they are chosen by accident if ever.
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
|
|
|
batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 23 2009, 4:38am
Post #4 of 16
(1158 views)
Shortcut
|
on the date...
I don't know---first child of Sam, 2nd anniversary of the destruction of the Ring, end of the 3rd age and beginning of the 4th "in the reckoning of Gonder"--1, 2, 3, 4--time *marches* on...
on Sam noting the date
Nope I did not catch that.
Old customs...
Pretty much-both my sons have traditional names. (Wonder how Tolkien would feel about some of the *user names* we come across on the internet  )
on assumptions...
Sam probably made that assumption because that's what he wants to think... or maybeTolkien had Sam make the assumption and refrained from Frodo correcting him so that *hoping beyond hope* readers (>>>me) could turn the page a couple more times.
on unhealed wounds...
I understand that the Ring has had its effect on Sam to whatever degree-- which may account for some of what Frodo is referring to here. But I think it has much more to do with Sam's feelings of loyalty to (no, that would actually be love towards) Frodo that causes his feeling "torn in two". Sam has been coming into his own since returning to the Shire---standing up for his neighbors, tending to the planting, marrying Rose and becoming a father. Be that as it may, Frodo's been present. No doubt Sam would have been content to carry on like this until the end. (and bravo to him for that!) But Frodo knows things don't have to be that way--he can take the ship and allow Sam to fully embrace his life with his wife and children.
Other comments..
I thought Sam including Frodo in the name of Elanor was very touching.
|
|
|
Elros
Ossiriand
Jan 27 2009, 12:39am
Post #5 of 16
(1111 views)
Shortcut
|
According to one version of Gollum's capture in UT, March 25 is the day the Aragorn finally brings Gollums to Thranduil's realm after a journey of over 900 miles and 50 days. Evidently, March 25 is Tolkien's favorite day.
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 28 2009, 4:50pm
Post #6 of 16
(1160 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Why do you think the Professor had Sam and Rosie’s oldest child born on the anniversary of the Ring’s destruction?
Elanor seems to be a special child, blessed by Galadriel's magic. It's appropriate that she is born on a special anniversary. It also will give her and her family another reason to remember the significance of that date, even if no one else in the Shire notes it. And symbolically, baby Elanor represents new beginnings, a new age. March 25 has a seasonal meaning, roughly marking the beginning of spring. And although the unmaking of the Ring brought an end to many things, it also signified a new beginning.
Note, by the way, that Sam seems to be granted a bit of foresight when naming his daughter, realizing that she needs a special name because she will be surpassingly beautiful. But Sam also reveals his origins, ungrammatically predicting that she will be "beautifuller still."
2. Did you realise that was why Sam ‘noted’ the date of his daughter’s birth on your first reading?
I don't recall.
3. “What’s wrong with the old customs?” This would be a fairly accurate description of the Professor’s views, do you agree with it?
Well, the name "Elanor" is at once new and old. It's part of an old custom to name girls in the Shire after flowers, but I doubt that anyone in the Shire has ever been named after this particular flower. Yet the flower itself is very old indeed, as is the name. So yes, the Professor liked many old customs -- but often customs so old that they had fallen out of fashion, and even out of memory, and would by many of his contemporaries be considered radical and new.
Look at LotR itself as a work of literature. In many ways it looks far backward to the days before the novel, back to the days of Cervantes' Don Quixote, at least, or even earlier, when "novel" still meant "new," and when the romance ruled literature. Yet LotR also marked the beginning of a whole new genre, and spawned a thousand imitators, as well as some more original authors who do not imitate, but acknowledge Tolkien's influence. Heck, it spawned a whole subculture, of which we are a part.
4. Why do you think Sam assumes that Frodo was going to Rivendell?
Sam has been growing out of touch with Frodo for some time, going all the way back to the last time they were at Rivendell, if not before. Sam's marriage and forestry work has increased that separation. Thus Sam isn't even aware of Frodo's state on March 13, and did not anticipate or at first understand why Frodo would feel bad on October 6. Sam did not overhear Elrond talk with Frodo about looking for Bilbo in the Shire, and must assume that Bilbo would not travel again.
On the other hand, it seems likely that the elves or Gandalf have been in touch with Frodo. It has been two years since Frodo left Rivendell, and he seems quite certain that Bilbo and Elrond and Galadriel and Gandalf are on their way this time. This is no idle walk in the woods, looking for a chance meeting with the elves. No, someone must have tipped Frodo off, and arranged a time and place to meet. But Tolkien does not tip us off, so we share, to some extent, in Sam's surprise -- especially if we haven't been paying attention.
5. Frodo tells Sam “But you will be healed.” Was it apparent to you that Sam too carried an unhealed wound at this time? Was this yet another reason why Frodo had to leave?
Well, it wouldn't have done Sam any good to see Frodo suffer, I suppose. But I don't think it would have done him irreparable harm, either. Sam was made to be whole, and I think he would have remained whole, whether Frodo stayed or left.
Note that Frodo isn't at all torn. He leaves no wife or girlfriend in the Shire. His closest relative is Bilbo, and Bilbo is going with him. It's Sam who is torn, and Sam who weeps. Sam is the one I feel for, not Frodo.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 11:25am
Post #7 of 16
(1116 views)
Shortcut
|
'Well, Sam,' said Frodo. 'I want you to see Rose and find out if she can spare you, so that you and I can go off together. You can't go far or for a long time now, of course,' he said a little wistfully.
I agree that it's Sam who's truly torn in two at this parting. Frodo has come to terms with it, understands that it's the right decision. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't still feel the pangs of regret at leaving Sam behind.
Heck, he felt that way even before the Quest:
'It can't be helped, Sam,' said Frodo sadly. He had suddenly realized that flying from the Shire would mean more painful partings than merely saying farewell to the familiar comforts of Bag End. 'I shall have to go...'
How much more painful a parting must this one be? But Frodo's final kindness to Sam is in the way he focuses on easing the pain for Sam rather than on dwelling on his own sadness.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jan 30 2009, 11:26am)
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 3:33pm
Post #8 of 16
(1087 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I don't think it is painful at all, for Frodo.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I find the contrast striking between Frodo's pain at the beginning of the quest and his "little" wistfulness that Sam can't accompany him at the end. A little wistfulness is hardly pain, and he isn't wistful about leaving the Shire at all -- only about the fact that Sam won't be coming. But he isn't worried about Sam. He knows Sam will be whole and happy. And he knows he can't be whole or happy in the Shire. He's just a little wistful. I don't see any pangs, any tears, any regret, or many partings, for that matter. Frodo wouldn't have said good-bye to Merry and Pippin if Gandalf hadn't tipped them off so that Sam wouldn't have to return to the Shire alone.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 5:03pm
Post #9 of 16
(1082 views)
Shortcut
|
(if he feels any), because we are no longer seeing the story through his eyes. So, as you say, there's no clear evidence that he does feel any. However, I think that that hint of wistfulness shows that he's not merely relieved and happy to be leaving - there is at least some regret, and it slips out briefly here. Of course, Frodo is careful not to reveal any pain he feels to Sam - he's been very careful to avoid doing that ever since the quest ended. The very fact that he makes such an effort to conceal the pain of his wounds makes me suspect he may be concealing the pain of leaving too.
And the fact that he intended to slip away with only Sam for company also makes me think he found the experience too painful to share with anyone else (perhaps he would even have slipped away without Sam, if he hadn't wanted Sam to experience the honour of sharing in the riding of the Ring-bearers). As for not feeling any pain at leaving the Shire, I think his words belie that: "I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." That doesn't suggest to me that he's tired of the Shire, or happy to leave it, but rather that he loves it still and yet has no choice but to leave it. Frodo's future happiness is dearly bought.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 30 2009, 5:22pm
Post #10 of 16
(1097 views)
Shortcut
|
"I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me."
(emphasis mine)
He seems to be thinkling:
"I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not by me."
Yeah, he's in a lot of pain! He thinks he failed. Poor little guy.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 5:59pm
Post #11 of 16
(1075 views)
Shortcut
|
not at leaving the Shire. He has been too deeply hurt for that. For him, the Shire is like a dream from far ago. He feels wistful about leaving, but his pain is too great to ever consider staying. It's not leaving that hurts him now, it's staying.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 6:04pm
Post #12 of 16
(1099 views)
Shortcut
|
"I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not by me."
He probably even thinks that the wounds that still pain him were all his own fault. After all, he behaved foolishly on Weathertop, and when he ran from Shelob's Lair. And he wouldn't have had his finger bitten off if he hadn't gone and claimed the Ring. He has no-one to blame but himself for everything that went wrong, and no real claim to the things that went right. Or so he thinks. Poor Frodo.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 6:16pm
Post #13 of 16
(1108 views)
Shortcut
|
Regarding Frodo leaving Merry and Pippin out of his plans, that logically fits Frodo's illogic. Throughout the entire book he has been one to assume, often erroneously, that the best course is to bear everything by himself, that all concerned would be much better off not getting involved in the complications of his life. From start to finish he tries repeatedly to sneak away, leave things unmentioned, go solo, do all by himself what he really needs help doing. In fact, in one of his letters Tolkien called this lonerism Frodo's besetting sin, and that he ultimately lost control of the Ring because he kept assuming that he had to manage all by himself, and nobody could possibly have done so.
Sam saves him from that. Sam refuses to let him go solo, ever. So in the end Frodo has grown enough to allow Sam in on his departure, at least, though even then he doesn't reveal till the end the gravity of the situation. Gandalf, being wiser, bring in Merry and Pippin behind Frodo's back--even as he originally forced Sam on Frodo at the outset, when Frodo thought to leave the Shire by himself.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 8:20pm
Post #14 of 16
(1094 views)
Shortcut
|
at the start of the quest, Frodo was very reluctant to go, and often said things like "I wonder if I shall ever see that valley again" where his friends could hear him, and delayed going for months, and then when he went did so in a very leisurely manner. And Gandalf did not have to intervene in order to bring in his friends -- they were already aware of his plans and conspiring to go with him.
At the end, in contrast, Frodo was eager and ready to go, with all his affairs in order, and has successfully concealed his plans from all his friends, including even Sam. Sam does not refuse to let him go solo, because Sam is now torn between Frodo and his other relationships and duties. So it is Frodo who brings along Sam, not Sam who tags along with Frodo. And Gandalf does not tip off Merry and Pippin for Frodo's sake, but for Sam's, so Sam won't be lonely on the trip back to the Shire.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 30 2009, 8:39pm
Post #15 of 16
(1087 views)
Shortcut
|
No, Gandalf did not intervene to bring in Merry and Pippin. They did, themselves. They had to form a conspiracy to pretend to help Frodo move, when in fact they planned to force themselves on him in his departure from the Shire. Frodo fully intended to sneak away from them all. As it turned out, Frodo did finally decide to tell them his plans, at what he thought would be the last minute, when they would not have any chance to make the necessary preparations to follow him, but they fooled him by preparing in advance behind his back. Frodo was a very solitary and slippery fellow!
I wonder, could his backstory have anything to do with it? Treated in his formative years like a burden to be shuffled around in Brandy Hall, everyone trying to fob off responsibility for him onto someone else? That could easily train one's first inclination towards not wanting to bother anyone by asking for help, companionship, anything. Then he finally gets adopted--by an old curmudgeon who finds it in his heart to make an exception in his solitude for a fellow loner. Frodo grows up with courtesy-skills that aren't quite the same as social skills. He never entirely fits in, anywhere.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 30 2009, 10:07pm
Post #16 of 16
(1111 views)
Shortcut
|
about Frodo being a loner, I'm arguing about whether leaving the Shire caused him pain at the end of the book the way it did at the beginning. I don't think it did.
As for why Frodo was a loner, I'll have to think about that.
|
|
|
|
|
