|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kelvarhin
Gondolin
Jan 19 2009, 2:08am
Post #1 of 8
(1234 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Grey Havens I – The clearing up
|
Can't Post
|
|
Welcome to this weeks discussions of Book VI, Chapter IX – The Grey Havens
I normally just lurk the Reading Room, and I’m really quite nervous about leading you all, but I hope I’ll do an ok job.
I’m sorry to say that RL has let me down (I’ve injured myself) so NEB has kindly agreed to step in and post my ramblings for you.
Kel x
It’s the day after the battle and Frodo rides to the Michel Delving and releases all the prisoners.
“One of the first that they found was poor Fredegar Bolger, Fatty no longer. He had been taken when the ruffians smoked out a band of rebels that he led from the hidings up in Brockenbores by the hills of Scary.”
“Then there was Lobelia. Poor thing, she looked very old and thin when the rescued her from a dark and narrow cell. She insisted on hobbling out on her own feet; and she had such a welcome, and there was such clapping and cheering when she appeared, leaning on Frodo’s arm but still clutching her umbrella, that she was quite touched, and drove away in tears. But she was crushed by the news of Lotho’s murder, and she would not return to Bag End. She gave it back to Frodo, and went to her own people, the Bracegirdles of Hardbottle.”
The following page goes onto describe all the rebuilding work required to bring the Shire back to it’s former glory. Knocking down of Shirriff-houses and repairing and replacing destroyed or damaged Hobbit-holes, reusing the bricks from the former Shirrif-houses, including the restoration of Bagshot Row, now renamed New Row.
“There was some discussion of the name that the new row should be given. Battle Gardens was thought of, or Better Smials. But after a while in sensible hobbit-fashion it was just called New Row. It was a purely Bywater joke to refer to it as Sharkey’s End.”
Questions
1. What did you think of Fredegar Bolger, who in the first book was decidedly comical, being the leader of a band of rebels?
2. Why do you think Lobelia, a decidedly old, female hobbit, received such harsh treatment, and did this change your earlier perception of her? Or do you just find yourself feeling sorry for her?
3. Did you find some of the gentle humour in this section out of place or does it help to reinforce the inner resilience of the hobbits?
4. Do you like the hobbits resourcefulness in reusing what had been ugly, to repair and replace things of beauty?
5. Any other comments?
Valinor, O Valinor
Andavë yányë hyarya
Tumna yá nyčna minya fëa
An Valinor, lissë Eldamar
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
|
|
|
Monkeysee
Registered User
Jan 19 2009, 5:55am
Post #2 of 8
(901 views)
Shortcut
|
Sorry I am unable to post regularly, work keeps dragging me far too busy.
Here's my shot at these:
Questions
2. Why do you think Lobelia, a decidedly old, female hobbit, received such harsh treatment, and did this change your earlier perception of her? Or do you just find yourself feeling sorry for her?
Changed a bit and felt a little sorry for her.
3. Did you find some of the gentle humour in this section out of place or does it help to reinforce the inner resilience of the hobbits?
Yes its out of place but for a reason I believe, and yes, it reinforces the resilience of the Hobbits. Reading the begining when JRRT talks of Hobbits he uses much of the same humor and word descriptors. Then as the story goes the writing changes until he gets back to where he started, the Hobbits. Its out of place because we aren't used to reading that style and its done on purpose because, as I mentioned earlier, I think JRRT was working on a long slow letdown so as to keep the reader emotionally involved rather than create an emotional disconnect with the story, so he brings us back to where he started, writing the way he did in the begining.
4. Do you like the hobbits resourcefulness in reusing what had been ugly, to repair and replace things of beauty?
Perhaps its out of necessity but why create garbage when you can use it?
5. Any other comments?
http://www.simondale.net/house/
This is a link to an amazing house, regardless if you agree with the builders viewpoints. I'm going to build one too... Although, mine will have AC. 
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Jan 19 2009, 8:12am
Post #3 of 8
(940 views)
Shortcut
|
And get well speedily!
I don't have time to answer in detail this week.
In short:
1. What did you think of Fredegar Bolger, who in the first book was decidedly comical, being the leader of a band of rebels?
I was always a Fredegar-fan. And he was by no way more comical than Sam or Pippin.
In fact, I think his escaping Crickhollow in time was both resourceful and critical for the success of the Quest.
2. Why do you think Lobelia, a decidedly old, female hobbit, received such harsh treatment, and did this change your earlier perception of her? Or do you just find yourself feeling sorry for her?
I've suggested last week she didn't really believe in Sharkey.
Anyway, she expressed open contempt for him; and after Lotho fell into disgrace, Saruman had another one to visit his petty revenge upon.
3. Did you find some of the gentle humour in this section out of place or does it help to reinforce the inner resilience of the hobbits?
It expresses the inner resilience. See Sam along this book, and Bilbo in the Hobbit. We laugh at the expense of both, but that makes them stronger.
4. Do you like the hobbits resourcefulness in reusing what had been ugly, to repair and replace things of beauty?
Yes. We should all learn from them.
5. Any other comments?
No; that requires thought, which I have no spare time for this week. 
Get better soon! 
"Wasted?" I says, "I wouldn't call it that" - Sam
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Jan 19 2009, 10:59pm
Post #4 of 8
(901 views)
Shortcut
|
1. What did you think of Fredegar Bolger, who in the first book was decidedly comical, being the leader of a band of rebels?
What an irony that his friends ended up better off than he. On the other hand, at least Fatty tried to lead a rebellion. But frankly, it's kind of sad when Fatty must lead the rebellion, and perhaps not surprising that it didn't get very far.
2. Why do you think Lobelia, a decidedly old, female hobbit, received such harsh treatment, and did this change your earlier perception of her? Or do you just find yourself feeling sorry for her?
Apparently most of the prisoners were treated badly, at least when it came to food. Lobelia received such treatment because she was a stubborn old woman who wouldn't take orders.
3. Did you find some of the gentle humour in this section out of place or does it help to reinforce the inner resilience of the hobbits?
The latter. It's similar to the gentle humor involving Merry, Pippin, and Aragorn when Merry recovered in the Houses of Healing.
4. Do you like the hobbits resourcefulness in reusing what had been ugly, to repair and replace things of beauty?
Sure.
5. Any other comments?
Note that there is no call for an investigation of the hobbits who cooperated with the enemy. Nor are there any recriminations against the hobbits who let this happen. Nor is there any discussion of how to prevent this from happening again, perhaps by beefing up the border guard, or even organizing expeditions against the ruffians.
And what happened to the ruffians? Did the Rangers take care of them? How? By letting them go, Frodo and the hobbits have made the ruffians someone else's problem -- is that really wise or fair?
Everyone focuses on restoring the Shire to its prior fatness and ignorance. There's no thought about making more connections with the outside world -- on the contrary, under King Elessar the Shire will become more insular than ever, with a few exceptions.
If one of us had a choice between the Shire and Gondor, would we choose the Shire? Of course, if as hobbits we wanted to raise a family, we might have little choice -- but why couldn't a colony of hobbits move to Rohan or Gondor, as Gimli and Legolas did with some of their kin? What if we had a choice between the Shire and Elvenhome -- would we really choose the Shire over Elvenhome?
|
|
|
batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 20 2009, 12:25am
Post #5 of 8
(878 views)
Shortcut
|
Fredegar...
Glad to see he's still practical
Then: "I suppose you three won't want mushrooms again?" and
Now: "What's your size in hats now?"
I think he was inspired by his friends last year when they took off into the Old Forest and this makes his being a leader not so hard to imagine.
Lobelia...
I guess *ruffians* do not defer to age or gender when doling out cruelty. Yes, I feel sorry for her--it's that parent burying a child situation. I was very touched by her earmarking her money for helping hobbits. (she's still probably a pushy old dame 'til the end...)
Humor...
I love that Tolkien puts in humor here.
Resourcefulness...
I'm glad they were able to reuse those "badly laid" bricks.
Other...
Hearing about "Fatty" makes me think of that "...terrific splash and a shout of Whoa! from Frodo." 
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 20 2009, 3:17am
Post #6 of 8
(851 views)
Shortcut
|
Oh, no, what did you do, Kel? And of all the times for something to happen!  Take care!
An interesting tidbit about Fredegar: he did not show up in the original draft of this chapter, nor in the second manuscript draft! Tolkien had apparently forgotten about him, not surprising really since the hobbits as they set off went through many changes of names (and number).
This does provide good closure for that character. After his experience with the Black Riders left him a babbling mess on the doorstep of a house over a mile from Crickhollow, it's little wonder that his demeanor changed. He would have had to confess to his part in the cover-up of Frodo's leaving the Shire, and so could no longer impersonate him, which would not have mattered since after this fright he probably suffered PTSD and never set foot in the house at Crickhollow again. Becoming paranoid and xenophobic, he would have thus been a natural leader against any non-hobbits venturing into the Shire.
Lobelia, meanwhile, has been allowed to have a change of heart (and her release and redemption were in the story from the first draft). She remains a feisty old lady, but her deprivations and her grief at her son's violent death have given her some degree of empathy; being cheered upon her release from the Lockholes clinched the change of heart.
As for the re-use of the bricks: as Monkeysee said, why toss something useful in the trash!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 20 2009, 9:33pm
Post #7 of 8
(857 views)
Shortcut
|
I have often said that if I could live in Middle Earth, I would live in Bree. It has all of the folksy charm of the Shire, without the insularity. Sure, the majority of folks in Bree choose to regard everything outside of Bree as just generic Outside at the time of the books, but I'm sure that quickly changed when it once more became a major crossroad with the return of the King. It is a place where hobbits can comfortably hobnob with men, and dwarves pass through on their way to the Blue Mountains (Elessar's ban does not apply to them) and elves pass through the woods on their way to the Grey Havens (ditto) and men pass north and south. If you want news of the outside world, you can find it. So the choices aren't just The Shire or Gondor.
But yes, I do find the idea of The Shire becoming a hobbit reservation somewhat disturbing. Not least because Tolkien hints that future generations of men violated the treaty not too long after Tar Elessar's day.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
|
|
|
elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 26 2009, 10:23pm
Post #8 of 8
(866 views)
Shortcut
|
1. What did you think of Fredegar Bolger, who in the first book was decidedly comical, being the leader of a band of rebels?
2. Why do you think Lobelia, a decidedly old, female hobbit, received such harsh treatment, and did this change your earlier perception of her? Or do you just find yourself feeling sorry for her?
3. Did you find some of the gentle humour in this section out of place or does it help to reinforce the inner resilience of the hobbits?
4. Do you like the hobbits resourcefulness in reusing what had been ugly, to repair and replace things of beauty? 1) I think Fatty also has grown since the beginning. In the beginning, he had no guts to go with Merry, Pippin and Sam to accompany Frodo on his journey. After the instances of the Ringwraiths attacking and the Troubles starting, he knows probably, has an idea of why this is and therefore know it's time to step up and do what he can to stand up against the ruffians.
2) Lobelia is just greedy but not evil. I do find myself feeling sorry for her when she found out Lotho died.
3) of course one of teh things i love about hobbits is their reslience and humor. I love these qualities about them!
4) This example goes to show that when hobbits have a right mindset of resliency and their productive ways =show that they can endure through the worst and rebuild and find hope in the future again.
Resilience and endurance are two qualities I love about hobbits. :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 26 2009, 10:24pm)
|
|
|
|
|
