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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Jan 12 2009, 3:38am
Post #1 of 23
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The Scouring of the Shire 1: Hobbitses
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Hello, all! This week I will have six or seven posts organized by theme, although after organizing them, I realized that they pretty much go chronologically, anyway, finishing off on Friday with some miscellaneous ideas and an open discussion. I thought we’d start with the characters of Sam, Merry, and Pippin, and a bit of their role in this chapter. Starting with Sam…
Of course we can’t read the notice in the dark,” Sam shouted back. “And if hobbits of the Shire are to be kept out in the wet on a night like this, I’ll tear down your notice when I find it.”
Sam is the first hobbit to talk back to Hob Hayward at the beginning of the chapter; throughout the entire book, it’s been the central idea that he’s been using to get him through all the burdens he’s carried while helping Frodo to destroy the Ring, and now the Shire is not being welcoming and homey like he remembered it. It’s something that he feels a duty to protect. I’d like to compare it to a small passage from the Council of Elrond:
“But you won't send him off alone surely, Master?” cried Sam, unable to contain himself any longer, and jumping up from the corner where he had been quietly sitting on the floor.
“No indeed!” said Elrond, turning towards him with a smile. “You at least shall go with him. It is hardly possible to separate you from him, even when he is summoned to a secret council and you are not.”
Sam sat down, blushing and muttering. “A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!” he said, shaking his head.”
- In the Scouring of the Shire, Sam does not hesitate before shouting back to the gatekeeper, whereas in CoE, Sam waits until he is “unable to contain himself any longer”. What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam? I realize that the situations are different; how much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam? What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
Merry uses the Horn of Rohan and the Horn-cry of Buckland (which we’ll discuss later) to summon all the hobbits. I thought it was interesting to compare this to Merry’s encounter with Dernhelm, who secretly smuggled Merry into battle under her cloak. In SoS, Merry uses the Horn that Eowyn “begged him to receive….as a memorial of Dernhelm and of the horns of the Mark at the coming of the morning.”
Pippin, on the other hand, clearly uses his own memories to stand up for the Shire:
This was too much for Pippin. His thoughts went back to the Field of Cormalled, and here was a squint-eyed rascal calling the Ring-bearer ‘little cock-a-whoop’. He cast back his cloak, flashed out his sword, and the silver and sable of Gondor gleamed on him as he rode forward.
- How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain? How do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?—just as he was, they are being swept into a battle of a cause that they believe in.
- Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
- How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
One other thing I’d also like to address in this post is the way that the phrase “tearing down” is used. Sam, Merry, and Pippin all use it. Sam threatens to tear down the sign, Merry actually does tear down the sign, and Pippin tears down the Rules. The phrase “tear down” is used in all three of these instances. I saw tearing down as implying returning something back to its natural state, taking away something unnatural. - Any thoughts on this idea? Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire? How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
- If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules? Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
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"A friend helps you find your Silmaril. A true friend helps you slay kin, cross icy wastes, battle your rellies, lose your hand to a Dark Lord and cast yourself into a fissure in the earth."
-Ataahua
"...But life has thus far failed to adjust itself to my liking, so I soldier on."
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(This post was edited by Laerasëa on Jan 12 2009, 3:42am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 12 2009, 11:48am
Post #2 of 23
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What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam?
During the quest, Sam chose Frodo over the Shire. Now he will choose the Shire over Frodo. He loves them both, but his duty to Frodo only goes so far, and he has done his duty.
... how much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam?
The Council of Elrond was a different situation, but I would compare Sam's reaction in this chapter to his reaction when Sandyman ridiculed him early in the book, and other hobbits took Sandyman's side. Sam was not sure of himself at the time, and retreated into silence when Sandyman scoffed at stories of elves and other strange creatures. Sam is sure of himself now. Sam has changed. And so has the perception of Sam by others -- if Elrond were to hold his Council again, Sam would be invited, and would not have any need to remain silent.
What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
Well, even at that point Sam had changed. He might have at least done as much as Fatty Bolger, and probably more. But he was not yet a hero honored throughout the western world, the great warrior who wounded Shelob and rescued Frodo, and might have had a harder time rallying the hobbits throughout the Shire because he was still unsure of his own abilities, and still thought of himself as a simpleton or ninnyhammer, as the Gaffer would say.
How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain?
It isn't so much the ride with Dernhelm that changed Merry, it was the end of that ride, and the encounter with the Witch-king. Merry no longer thinks of himself as baggage, just tagging along for the ride.
Are you suggesting that Merry is following Dernhelm's example? I think Dernhelm was far more depressed, seeking death in battle. But Dernhelm, that is Eowyn, did set an example of courage. It was Theoden, though, who commanded the rescue of Minas Tirith, and commanded the horns to blow. And it was Theoden Merry viewed as a father. I think he might be following Theoden's example.
... do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?
Well, Merry is leading them into battle, just as he was once led into battle. But the battles hardly compare.
Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
Not really. Pippin played his part in the battle. I don't see a fundamental distinction between them, except that Pippin is very conscious of his role as the King's representative in the Shire.
How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
Merry takes the lead, but Pippin provides his greatest support -- more so than Frodo, who wants to make sure no one gets hurt, or even Sam, who wants to make sure Frodo does not get hurt. Pippin, as I noted above, is conscious of his role as the King's representative -- a role reinforced by King Elessar just before they parted.
Throughout the book, the chief difference between Merry and Pippin is their natural disposition -- Pippin is naturally much more optimistic and upbeat than Merry, while Merry is more sober and cautious than Pippin. But I'm not sure those differences come out in this chapter. Instead, the chief contrast is between the other hobbits and Frodo, whose feeling is sorrow, not anger, and whose chief concern is minimizing violence.
One other thing I’d also like to address in this post is the way that the phrase “tearing down” is used. Sam, Merry, and Pippin all use it. Sam threatens to tear down the sign, Merry actually does tear down the sign, and Pippin tears down the Rules. The phrase “tear down” is used in all three of these instances. I saw tearing down as implying returning something back to its natural state, taking away something unnatural.
Any thoughts on this idea? Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire? How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
Tearing down and scouring both imply a certain amount of violent activity, if not outright violence, but scouring implies cleansing as well. The first step in the revolution is tearing down and cleansing, but that still leaves the Shire wounded and vandalized, so it will be up to Sam to do some restoration work afterwards.
I'm not sure it is accurate to say they return the Shire to its natural state -- the hobbits farms are hardly a state of nature -- but they do return the Shire to something very like what it had been before they left, and for centuries past. I would call it restoration, which is more reactionary than revolution -- the most famous historical English example being the restoration of King Charles II after Cromwell's Puritan Commonwealth, an event dear to many English Catholics, many of whom wished for a second restoration after the protestant William and Mary replaced James II in the Glorious Revolution. There may be a Jacobite strain in the Scouring.
If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules?
Perhaps not -- after all, along with Frodo they were the best of the hobbits to begin with, and in their absence the rebels were left with Fatty Bolger and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. But they would not have been as effective, and might not have prevailed. Frodo, on the other hand, might have taken Merry's place as leader -- it's easy to forget that in FotR Frodo is by far the fiercest of the hobbits.
Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
They're catalysts. It's clear that the hobbits are not happy and want to throw the ruffians out. But someone has to say it's time, let's do it. Merry has the idea, and starts it with his horn. Pippin and Sam rally the people with their personal connections to the Cottons and Tooks. Sometimes it takes a few leaders to turn discontent into revolution -- that's why the Germans sent Lenin to Russia, that's why we remember the Boston Tea Party and Patrick Henry's "give me liberty or give me death" speech. On the other hand, Frodo is there as a tempering force.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 12 2009, 2:41pm
Post #3 of 23
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The fact that the hobbits return to the Shire in armor and bearing swords may help them rally the troops. They look like they know what they are doing, as Butterbur already noted. That might be half the battle, right there.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 12 2009, 5:13pm
Post #4 of 23
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What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam?
In terms of duty, Frodo represents what Sam owes to the world, whereas the Shire represents what Sam owes to his heritage--both those who went before, like his Gaffer, and generations to come. In terms of love, his love for Frodo motivated the greatest test of his strength in his life, and his love for the Shire motivated a proof of that strength. Test and proof aren't quite the same things. The former made him grow, the latter manifested his growth. But in all things love drives Sam.
... how much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam?
I attribute it all to a change in Sam. He started out a follower and ended a leader. Mordor forced him to take charge; now he's grown comfortable with the idea. He has learned that assertiveness is not a vice.
What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
He'd have grumbled about the change in management, kept his head low, and concentrated on protecting the Gaffer as much as possible. I think that he would have grudgingly followed any rules that did not entail ratting anybody out or hurting anyone, but he might have slipped vegetables to the rebels in hiding now and then, calling himself a fool for doing it, and backing down if ever it threatened his ability to protect his father. On the other hand, if he'd have been a servant in Brandy Hall or Tuckborough, he would have gladly and fiercely taken up arms for his master. But if Frodo had left without Sam, Lotho would have become his master, and Sam would have taken this as a hardship to endure, not rebell against.
If Frodo then showed up, Sam would immediately rally to his side and toss off Lotho (and indirectly Sharkey) as a usurper, relieved to have a better Baggins to follow. But he would still have followed. The Gaffer would have kept reminding him that this was his lot in life.
How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain?
By putting him in the thick of things, where he had to grow. And by the example of standing up to fear. He didn't strike the Witch King until he realized that he couldn't let someone so brave stand alone.
... do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?
There's one significant difference. Buckland is, in everybody's mind, sort of iffy as a part of the Shire. Merry is heir to a powerful semi-autonomous state. Bucklanders owe their allegiance to the Master of Buckland rather than the Mayor of the Shire. Merry's family raised him with this in mind, so leadership comes a little more naturally to him. (Notice that although Frodo was the official leader of the expedition leaving the Shire in the first place, Merry made all of the arrangements.)
The Tooks, in contrast, are more of a once-great house that has stepped aside. They apparently have some ancient hereditary claim to running the Shire that they have long since abandoned, now defering to the Mayor. Thus Pippin points out that if anybody's going to become monarch at this late date, his father would be the logical candidate, not Lotho Baggins--but he's not actually suggesting the replacement, he's saying that if his family has no right to monarchy, then nobody does. Thus, while they have their own extensive lands, the Tooks do not have authority over anybody but their own servants and tenants, and prefer it that way.
Frodo is blood-kin to the offending upstart. His role is to apologize to the community on behalf of the Baggins family, and to rein in his cousin. Far from taking leadership, his most gracious role is to renounce the Baggins Chiefdom and restore the mayorality. While he sits in for the real mayor until Wil Whitfoot recuperates, he remains strictly a steward--he can hardly sue for leadership when his cousin has tainted the position for his family.
Sam has no hereditary claims whatsoever. He's an uppity peasant, and getting uppitier by the minute. The perfect choice, in other words, to become mayor of a democratic Shire.
Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
Merry's a leader, while Pippin is a follower, in a general's capacity. Pippin owes his authority to representing the King, not to himself. He leads other hobbits, but in service to one higher than himself.
How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
Skimming through the chapter, I notice that Merry makes all or most of the decisions. Pippin asks what to do, and then does it. Or he makes a suggestion, and waits for its approval. He definitely acts as an officer under a higher officer.
One other thing I’d also like to address in this post is the way that the phrase “tearing down” is used. Sam, Merry, and Pippin all use it. Sam threatens to tear down the sign, Merry actually does tear down the sign, and Pippin tears down the Rules. The phrase “tear down” is used in all three of these instances. I saw tearing down as implying returning something back to its natural state, taking away something unnatural.
Any thoughts on this idea? Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire? How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
To scour means to vigorously scrape away stubborn grunge. You wipe away a mess that doesn't cling much, but you scour what's baked on, sticky, or otherwise recalcitrant.
If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules?
I wrote about Sam above. Merry and Pippin would have holed up with their fathers in resistence, but not gone beyond that. They probably would have wound up in lock-up with Fatty Bolger. Their hearts would be willing, but they would lack the charisma or the confidence to inspire a full-on uprising.
Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
Now if Frodo, too, had stayed behind...let's see. We would have to assume that Sauron had not caught on about the Ring's whereabouts, perhaps having never encountered Gollum. So, it's the status quo stand-off that the book begins with, changed only by Saruman deciding to secure his supply of pipeweed by taking over. Frodo would have led a wonderful revolution, aided by the Ring, becoming a hero much like Bilbo in "The Hobbit", overthrowing his usurper cousin and rising to rule The Shire himself to the acclaim of a rejoicing people.
And then he would live happily ever after...and after...and after...and gradually not so happily as the Ring slowly warped him into an increasingly wraithlike tyrant, and now rebellions would start up against him, but he'd quash them all brutally, because his people would still love him and despair, even after he himself had lost the capacity to love, and they'd sigh against the helplessness of their better judgment, having no idea that the Ring held them all in thrall.
Gradually, the Flaming Eye would turn that way. Sauron would feel the radiance of the Ring building up power in a distant land, and would figure out what had happened. His forces would clamp down on The Shire, which by now would be heavily fortified, yet still no match for the Dark Lord, because the Ring would abandon Frodo for her own true love right at the worst possible moment. Darkness would fall all over Middle Earth. End of story.
Fortunately, it never came to that.
x
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 12 2009, 8:00pm
Post #5 of 23
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There's one significant difference. Buckland is, in everybody's mind, sort of iffy as a part of the Shire.
Some feel the same about Tookland.
Merry is heir to a powerful semi-autonomous state.
Pippin is heir to Tookland, which seems just as autonomous as Buckland.
Bucklanders owe their allegiance to the Master of Buckland rather than the Mayor of the Shire. I don't think anyone owes allegiance to the Mayor, a purely ceremonial figure. And Tooklanders, at least, continue to owe allegiance to the Thain.
Merry's family raised him with this in mind, so leadership comes a little more naturally to him. (Notice that although Frodo was the official leader of the expedition leaving the Shire in the first place, Merry made all of the arrangements.)
Merry is older than Pippin, who is still a tween. I agree that Merry shows more leadership, but I'm not sure that is because of his upbringing, as opposed to his maturity.
I think the more significant difference between Buckland and Tookland, and between the Master of Buckland and the Thain, is that Buckland is right next to the Old Forest, which the hobbits (rightly) perceive as a constant threat. Still, despite their location near the center of the Shire, the Tooks maintained their defenses well enough to resist the ruffians. It's unclear whether the same is true in Buckland, where Bill Ferny manned the gates.
The Tooks, in contrast, are more of a once-great house that has stepped aside. They apparently have some ancient hereditary claim to running the Shire that they have long since abandoned, now defering to the Mayor.
I don't think the Tooks stepped aside, and I don't think they defer to the Mayor. Most hobbits don't think of themselves as owing allegiance to anyone except family or clan. There hasn't been much need for a more unified front under the leadership of the Thain or anyone else since the days of "Bullroarer" Took, about 170 years ago. Which, by the way, isn't that ancient. Bilbo knew people who remembered it.
Thus Pippin points out that if anybody's going to become monarch at this late date, his father would be the logical candidate, not Lotho Baggins--but he's not actually suggesting the replacement, he's saying that if his family has no right to monarchy, then nobody does. Thus, while they have their own extensive lands, the Tooks do not have authority over anybody but their own servants and tenants, and prefer it that way.
The Thain never had direct authority over anyone, but was the king's representative -- and Aragorn makes it clear that the next Thain, i.e., Pippin, will continue to be the King's representative. Still, even in the absence of the King, in times of trouble the Tooks have a history of leadership. It's just that the Shire hasn't experienced trouble for many years. I'm not sure that Pippin will have any duties as Thain, other than greeting the King when he comes to visit and that sort of thing. It's apparently an office that lies dormant until a time of trouble.
Frodo is blood-kin to the offending upstart. His role is to apologize to the community on behalf of the Baggins family, and to rein in his cousin. Far from taking leadership, his most gracious role is to renounce the Baggins Chiefdom and restore the mayorality. While he sits in for the real mayor until Wil Whitfoot recuperates, he remains strictly a steward--he can hardly sue for leadership when his cousin has tainted the position for his family.
That's an interesting theory, backed up by Frodo's promise to the Gaffer to set things right. I never thought about it that way, but it seems to makes sense. I'll have to mull this over when we get to that part of the story.
Sam has no hereditary claims whatsoever. He's an uppity peasant, and getting uppitier by the minute. The perfect choice, in other words, to become mayor of a democratic Shire.
Well, he's also a personal friend of the heirs to Tookland and Buckland and one of the heroes of the hour. And when Frodo leaves, he'll be rich. But I still don't think the Mayor has any authority over the Thain, especially now that the King has returned. Eventually, though, Sam's heirs get their own semi-autonomous territory, and royal office, in the Tower Hills.
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Jan 12 2009, 9:24pm
Post #6 of 23
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Are you suggesting that Merry is following Dernhelm's example?
Not exactly, but there is a definite parallel between the two. Merry wanted to fight, Theoden would not let him, and it was Dernhelm who told Merry to come with him/her into battle. Theoden might have inspired Merry, but ultimately, he would not let Merry fight, he said that none of the Rohirrim could take him with them, and Merry could not ride a horse on his own. It was Dernhelm who gave Merry the opportunity to fight, and the means. That's more what Merry is doing for the hobbits, isn't it?
Theoden might have inspired Merry, but ultimately, he would not let Merry fight, he said that none of the Rohirrim could take him with them, and Merry could not ride a horse on his own. It was Dernhelm who took Merry into battle, whi
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Traveling Journal Official Site
"Who needs drugs when you spend all your money on books?"
-Menelwyn
"A friend helps you find your Silmaril. A true friend helps you slay kin, cross icy wastes, battle your rellies, lose your hand to a Dark Lord and cast yourself into a fissure in the earth."
-Ataahua
"...But life has thus far failed to adjust itself to my liking, so I soldier on."
-Magpie
"I just thought I would share this story, because today is a great day."
-Hobbiton
"True nerddom/geekdom/dorkdom does not kick in until you are in your 50s taking a nerd/geek/dork test on the discussion board of an internet fan site for a fantasy novel/film."
-Squire
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 12 2009, 11:04pm
Post #7 of 23
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When Frodo come marching home again, hurrah!
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In the Scouring of the Shire, Sam does not hesitate before shouting back to the gatekeeper, whereas in CoE, Sam waits until he is “unable to contain himself any longer”. What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam?
The Shire is home. Frodo is master. Home is eternal. Masters change. Foreshadowing came at the Mirror of Galadriel, where Sam felt torn in two between accompanying his master and going home to put things right. Galadriel helped him realize that the road forward with Frodo was the way back to the Shire.
`No, I'll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all,' he said. `But I hope I do get back some day. If what I've seen turns out true, somebody's going to catch it hot! '
One might say that Frodo was secondary.
I realize that the situations are different; how much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam?
To a large extent it’s the situation. At CoE the obstacles and threats on Sam’s road were still vague and in the future. Now the obstacles on his road to get home are immediate and right in front of him. It’s a lot easier getting worked up to fight something you can see, especially if it’s a last minute obstacle near the end of a long journey.
What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
Dreamdeer puts it nicely. Like all the other stout hobbits such as Farmer Cotton Sam would have been “itching for trouble” but would have “needed a call”.
Merry uses the Horn of Rohan and the Horn-cry of Buckland (which we’ll discuss later) to summon all the hobbits. I thought it was interesting to compare this to Merry’s encounter with Dernhelm, who secretly smuggled Merry into battle under her cloak. In SoS, Merry uses the Horn that Eowyn “begged him to receive….as a memorial of Dernhelm and of the horns of the Mark at the coming of the morning.”
Pippin, on the other hand, clearly uses his own memories to stand up for the Shire:
Quote
This was too much for Pippin. His thoughts went back to the Field of Cormalled, and here was a squint-eyed rascal calling the Ring-bearer ‘little cock-a-whoop’. He cast back his cloak, flashed out his sword, and the silver and sable of Gondor gleamed on him as he rode forward.
How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain?
Indeed. It wasn’t Theoden.
“'King's man! King's man!' his heart cried within him. 'You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, you said.' But his will made no answer, and his body shook. He dared not open his eyes or look up.”
But it was Dernhelm who awoke his courage.
“Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate At least she should not die alone, unaided.”
It was not only Bilbo’s pity that ruled the fate of many.
How do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?
He’s the military leader to Frodo’s political leader.
Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
I think Pippin’s influence comes from a sense of righteous indignation that the heroism of Frodo is so disrespected by stay-at-homes. Of course, after any war most returning veterans feel the same outrage. Again, the Scouring has always seemed to me a polemic about how homecoming veterans are disgracefully treated when they get home, and so Tolkien indulges himself in a little personal fantasy about giving all those draft dodgers and 4Fs a good drubbing. One can almost hear Tolkien himself raging “I have not passed through the fire and death of the Somme to bandy crooked words with a witless worm!”
How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
Merry is the military leader, Frodo the political commissar, and Pippin is the energetic aide-de-camp. Sam is the stolid no-nonsense non-com.
One other thing I’d also like to address in this post is the way that the phrase “tearing down” is used. Sam, Merry, and Pippin all use it. Sam threatens to tear down the sign, Merry actually does tear down the sign, and Pippin tears down the Rules. The phrase “tear down” is used in all three of these instances. I saw tearing down as implying returning something back to its natural state, taking away something unnatural.
Any thoughts on this idea?
If one wants to go that direction one might imagine staunch Catholic Tolkien doing a little bit of fantasizing about tearing down Martin Luther’s theses off the Castle Church door.
But I’m thinking more of the iconoclasm that accompanies any revolution, where statues of tyrants are overturned, records of the secret police are thrown into the streets, and walls are torn down.
Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire?
“Mr. Sharkey, tear down this wall!” (Well, it *is* an Evil Empire!)
How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
It’s interesting that Isengard was “scoured” with water.
If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules?
Yep.
Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
I bet they like pie.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Jan 13 2009, 4:41am
Post #8 of 23
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reminds me of what you said about catalysts. I think the requirement for a literary catalyst is that they must have something(s) that the other characters don't have, and need, whether that thing(s) is physical or not. The hobbits come back with memories of their journey and experiences in battles and victories and good and evil, and they have grown up. They have seen things outside of the Shire, and in understanding that their Shire is not the only place in the world, they have a confidence and pride in the Shire that they didn't have before. So, the sight of four familiar hobbits marching in wearing armor and bearing swords definitely made a big impression on the rest of the Shirefolk, I think.
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"Who needs drugs when you spend all your money on books?"
-Menelwyn
"A friend helps you find your Silmaril. A true friend helps you slay kin, cross icy wastes, battle your rellies, lose your hand to a Dark Lord and cast yourself into a fissure in the earth."
-Ataahua
"...But life has thus far failed to adjust itself to my liking, so I soldier on."
-Magpie
"I just thought I would share this story, because today is a great day."
-Hobbiton
"True nerddom/geekdom/dorkdom does not kick in until you are in your 50s taking a nerd/geek/dork test on the discussion board of an internet fan site for a fantasy novel/film."
-Squire
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Jan 13 2009, 4:45am
Post #9 of 23
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He didn't strike the Witch King until he realized that he couldn't let someone so brave stand alone.
Do you think that he influenced the hobbits in that way, as well? That they had any thoughts as to Merry's safety when they answered his Cry?
********************************
Traveling Journal Official Site
"Who needs drugs when you spend all your money on books?"
-Menelwyn
"A friend helps you find your Silmaril. A true friend helps you slay kin, cross icy wastes, battle your rellies, lose your hand to a Dark Lord and cast yourself into a fissure in the earth."
-Ataahua
"...But life has thus far failed to adjust itself to my liking, so I soldier on."
-Magpie
"I just thought I would share this story, because today is a great day."
-Hobbiton
"True nerddom/geekdom/dorkdom does not kick in until you are in your 50s taking a nerd/geek/dork test on the discussion board of an internet fan site for a fantasy novel/film."
-Squire
(This post was edited by Laerasëa on Jan 13 2009, 4:46am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 13 2009, 10:14am
Post #10 of 23
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The Shire is home. Frodo is master. Home is eternal. Masters change.
I think Sam's problem is that they're both eternal. Or at least, his particular master-as-father-figure is eternal, because he's part of home, part of what the world means to him.
Sam chooses to "go home by the long road, with Mr. Frodo" not because he's putting Frodo temporarily first, but because it wouldn't be home without Frodo - so he has to get back there with Mr. Frodo. Don't forget that when Frodo "dies", Sam chooses to let the Shire go hang, and chooses to die defending Frodo's dead body instead!
That's what the real tragedy is at the end of the story - when you lose someone who is a part of 'home', you lose a part of yourself that can never be replaced. It's what we all experience when our parents die (and Tolkien experienced it as intensely as anyone). After that, you never really can go 'home' again. Which is perhaps why Sam (as legend has it) chooses to leave the Shire at the end of his life and travel across the Sea himself.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 13 2009, 10:49am
Post #11 of 23
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Glad to see you back in this Room!
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How did you ever get to Valinor without our help?
"A sign of affection, possibly" - Saruman
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 13 2009, 12:22pm
Post #12 of 23
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A few answers, some to the point
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What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam?
Up to this chapter, we see the Shire as meaning the Gaffer, as opposed to the more benevolent, exciting, lovable alternative father-figure that Frodo is.
Towards the end of the chapter we realise that the Shire means much more than just Master Home-fast - it is Rosie. It is not staying at home, it is building a home - which later extends to rebuilding the whole Shire.
How much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam?
You don't talk back to Elrond and Gandalf the way you do to an unidentified shirrif.
What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
He would have been married already.
And I guess that like her mother (and Mrs. Maggot), Rosie would have tried to keep him out of trouble.
How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain?
Darkstone and FarFromHome quoted his being awakened to courage by Dernhelm.
But I don't quite think so - Merry is mentioned as being a fighter in The Uruk-hai and Flotsam and Jestsam - he did fight Ugluk's troop, against really hopeless odds! So I think he was a fighter before (unlike Pippin, who waited until the troll nearly ate Beregond). Dernhelm inspired him to a higher level of courage, that of striking the Witch-king - but that was not quite necessary for taking the ruffians.
Before reading their answers, I assumed you asked about his taking the military leadership and planning, as opposed to hot-headed courage, which Pippin is the one to show first (depends on how you read the confrontation with Ferny and that with the half-dozen ruffians at the Green Dragon) - in which case I would vote for his three days ride with Theoden from Helm's Deep to Harrowdale, as a period in which he did learn quite a bit about strategy and tactics.
How do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?
Pippin is younger, Sam is shorter. Frodo simply can't fight.
Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
Oh; I've answered that already.
How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
I agree with Darkstone on this.
Any thoughts on this idea? Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire?
No, it is to tear down the years of stagnation in the Shire, long before Saruman ever entered the picture.
How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
It's one word longer.
If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules?
I guess the Master of Buckland keeps a sort of semi-autonomy like the Thain does, and that Pippin and Merry would be with their fathers. Sam would itch for trouble, but he would have Rosie to think of.
Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
As far as I remember, they had pie on their previous visit to The Pony. And Bilbo had pie in his larder - although it was Bombur who ended up eating it. Do yes, I guess Darkstone's right.
"A sign of affection, possibly" - Saruman
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 13 2009, 1:50pm
Post #13 of 23
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In the Scouring of the Shire, Sam does not hesitate before shouting back to the gatekeeper, whereas in CoE, Sam waits until he is “unable to contain himself any longer”. What does the Shire mean to Sam, versus what Frodo means to Sam? I realize that the situations are different; how much of the difference in Sam’s reaction is due to a change of situation or a change in Sam? What might Sam’s reaction have been if he had never accompanied Frodo on the quest, coming back to the Shire after leaving Rivendell, to find it in the same state as he does in SoS?
I think one big difference is that Sam is now on his home turf, and he feels entirely entitled to speak his mind with other ordinary hobbits. What doesn't come out clearly, but I think is implied, is that the Gamgees are a fairly prominent family within their own class - working for the Bagginses gives them some status, even if the Bagginses are seen as a bit odd. Sam was already courting Rosie, the daughter of a prosperous farmer, before he went on the quest. He may come across as servile and reticent at first when he's with his "betters" - that's a whole new world to him. But when he's at home, I think he always did show some of that "cocksureness" that Tolkien mentions in his Letters. And after all, speaking up in the Council of Elrond, challenging an Elf lord in the presence of so many other powerful people, is pretty cocksure in itself! If he waits until he sees what's happening to Frodo and just has to say something, who can blame him? Here in the Shire, he can see right away what needs to be done (he more than anyone is prepared for this, through his vision in Galadriel's Mirror), so he goes ahead and does it.
How do you think Dernhelm has influenced Merry’s role as a captain? How do you think the other hobbits compare with Merry?—just as he was, they are being swept into a battle of a cause that they believe in.
I agree with sador that Merry had this in him all along (it wasn't me, sador, who thought it was all down to Dernhelm!). Dernhelm certainly brought it out, but Merry has a natural, quiet courage that only comes to the fore when it's needed. Even back in the Old Forest, he was the one who kept everyone's courage up with his matter-of-fact, can-do attitude. He makes a great leader. But I'm sure his experience of riding with the Rohirrim helped a lot in teaching him military attitudes and tactics, which stand him in good stead now.
Any thoughts to the way that Merry’s influence seems to stem from his battle experiences (ie, using the Horn of the Mark to rally hobbits), while Pippin’s seems to stem from thought of praise in times of peace?
Merry uses his Rohirric horn and the experience he gained in Rohan. Pippin acts as a soldier of Gondor, revealing his Gondorian livery as he comes to defend the hero of Cormallen. So they are both falling back on the knowledge they gained during their adventure.
How do they complement each other as captains? Any differences between them that you notice, or any similarities?
Well, Merry has more battle experience, although Pippin did get to go with the army to the Black Gate, so he has some experience of battle too. Pippin still seems younger and subordinate to Merry - in WWI terms, if Merry is the Captain, Pippin would be his Lieutenant. Frodo would be the Colonel, I suppose. And Sam the Sergeant-Major.
Any thoughts on this idea? Is this what the role of these hobbits is, to tear down what Saruman has built and created in the Shire? How does the phrase "tear down" compare with the word "scour"?
Tearing down is only the start. Scouring would involve rooting out and cleansing away every trace of the invaders. But more important than these, I think, is the rebuilding - and the regrowing, the most important part of all.
If Sam, Merry, and Pippin had never left the Shire, would they have followed the Rules? Any other thoughts or comments on these hobbits in general?
I suppose they would have been like everyone else, gradually getting more and more frustrated and unhappy with changes that had happened slowly and imperceptibly at first. Unlike a frontal attack, an insidious gnawing away at freedom can be much harder to deal with, because at first it doesn't seem too bad, and you hope it's just temporary. It takes a while before you start to realize that something has to be done.
Maybe if the young heirs of Buckland and Tuckborough had been around, an organised opposition would have happened sooner (and maybe with less bloodshed?). Their friend Frodo would have made a good leader of the townspeople, and Sam (with his friends the Cottons) would have been very influential with the ordinary folk. But as was, the return of the travellers was just the spark needed to set the resistance going.
So overall, although I think the four hobbits have all learned a lot during the quest, I don't think their adventure changed them so much as it brought out what was inside them all along.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 13 2009, 3:11pm
Post #14 of 23
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That reminds me of an old joke.
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Sam is the stolid no-nonsense non-com.
How does a lieutenant get a flag up a hundred-foot pole with a fifty-foot rope?
"Sergeant, get that flag up that pole!"
And welcome.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 13 2009, 3:13pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 13 2009, 3:43pm
Post #15 of 23
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It was Darkstone and Dreamdeer, apparantly.
I hope neither of you feels offended by my mixing you up.
"A sign of affection, possibly" - Saruman
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 13 2009, 3:50pm
Post #16 of 23
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feel offended at being mistaken for either Darkstone or Dreamdeer. Quite the opposite!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
Jan 14 2009, 3:54am
Post #17 of 23
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in HoME, the first version of the Scouring
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shows Frodo as the strategic and tactical leader rather than Merry, wearing the mithril-shirt and killing several ruffians himself with Sting
Christopher Tolkien writes:
It is very striking that ...the story when [my father] first wrote it down should have been so different from its final form (or that he so signally failed to see 'what really happened'!).... most of all because Frodo is portrayed here at every stage as an energetic and commanding intelligence, warlike and resolute in action
I'm glad that JRRT took that second look.
ElanorTX
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 14 2009, 4:30am
Post #18 of 23
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 16 2009, 8:39pm
Post #19 of 23
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Frodo is portrayed here [in the first version] at every stage as an energetic and commanding intelligence, warlike and resolute in action
Thanks for that information!
It sheds new light on exactly what Tolkien must have had in mind when he decided, early on in the writing process, that there had to be a Scouring of the Shire. It sounds like he was going for the full-on fairytale ending, with Frodo as the conquering hero who is about to live "happily ever after". That rather changes my impression of just why Tolkien did want to include the Scouring in the first place - because it sounds as if it wasn't originally intended to introduce the bittersweet ending with its emphasis on loss, but to be a final flourish of triumph.
Unless there's more in HoMe to suggest that the loss was to come later anyway? Would you, or anyone else who's read HoMe, be able to shed any further light on just how the Scouring was originally meant to play out?
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 18 2009, 4:58am
Post #20 of 23
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Sorry to be coming in a bit late here! Here's an overview of the original Scouring.
Early notes show Tolkien thinking that the Hobbits should return to find the Shire at war. Christopher Tolkien noted that in the original draft of the Scouring, Frodo played a "far more aggressive and masterful part".
Gandalf starts out accompanying the four Hobbits, and it is he who tears down the notice at the Bridge, but 'Gandalf' is immediately changed to 'Frodo', and it is Frodo who threatens Bill Ferny, and makes the Shirriffs walk before them on the road, then leaves them with "We'll break a good many things yet...".
The ruffian who insults Frodo is named Sharkey. After he and his men run away from the brandished weapons, Frodo reveals that he'd been talking with Gandalf, who had revealed to him that Saruman sent these ruffians to entrap Cosimo (Lotho).
Deciding that they must find cover for the night, Sam suggests they go to Jeremy Cotton's - and the four head down to his farmhouse (two-storied), where they are stealthily admitted. They discuss the ruffians quartered at Bag End, and that Cosimo's ma has been taken to the lockholes. Farmer Cotton says "We'd clear'em out of the country if only we'd get together."
Suddenly there's banging at the door: Sharkey and his men have come. They open the door, and Frodo kills Sharkey. They then battle around the farmhouse, killing several of the ruffians, then Frodo orders them to rouse the hobbits of Bywater, who cheer him. Pippin sets off to get the Tooks, and Frodo sends out messengers to other places in the Shire. In the morning they begin to arrive: "Whole country's up, like a fire...It's grand! Right glad we are you came back, Mr. Frodo. That's what we needed."
Leaving the troops in Pippin's command, the other three head to Bag End. Encountering Ted Sandyman on the bridge near the Mill, Sam initially hits him on the nose and throws him into the water, but this was changed to an exchange closer to the one in the book.
Coming to the ruined Bag End, they encounter an orc-like ruffian named Sharkey (yes, again!) who claims he's the Boss, since Cosimo ran off when he realized he was going to be killed. Frodo and Sharkey then go at it one-on-one, with the expected result, followed by this exchange:
"When Gandalf and I sat here long ago, I think that at least one thing I could never have guessed would be that the last stroke of the battle would be at this door."
"Why not?" said Sam. "Very right and proper. And I'm glad that it was yours, Mr. Frodo. But if I may say so, though it was a grand day at Kormallen, and the happiest I have known, I never have felt that you got as much praise as you deserve."
"Of course not, Sam,", said Frodo. "I'm a hobbit. But why grumble? You've been far more neglected yourself. There's never only one hero in any true tale, Sam, and all the good folk are in others' debt. But if one had to choose one and one only, I'd choose Samwise."
"Then you'd be wrong, Mr. Frodo," said Sam. "For without you I'm nothing. But you and me together, Mr. Frodo: well, that's more than either alone."
Meanwhile Pippin and the other hobbits dispatched the ruffians who had gone up to Bywater. No hobbits were killed, but Pippin was wounded. The Dunlanders who gave themselves up after being hunted down were sent home, with stories of the "warlike" and "ferocious" hobbits.
And the text continues with "Even Sam could find no fault with Frodo's fame and honour in his own country...it was plain that the name of Baggins would become the most famous in Hobbit-history."
It was while Tolkien was working on a second draft, titled "The Mending of the Shire" (I'd forgotten this alternate title!), that Christopher says "my father perceived that Frodo's experience had so changed him, so withdrawn him, as to render him incapable of any such role in the Scouring". And thus that subsequent text was emended, and Frodo's leadership was divided among the other three.
Unfortunately, we do not get to see the "aha!" moment!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 18 2009, 12:16pm
Post #21 of 23
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"The famousest of the hobbits"
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And the text continues with "Even Sam could find no fault with Frodo's fame and honour in his own country...it was plain that the name of Baggins would become the most famous in Hobbit-history."
So Sam's predictive powers were spot-on until events overtook the author's original plan!
Thank you very much for all these extra details, dernwyn. Am I right in assuming that there was no trip to the Grey Havens after this, and that Frodo really did live "happily ever after to the end of his days"?
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 18 2009, 1:43pm
Post #22 of 23
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There was a trip to the Havens
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But it was not quite the same, and many details were not yet in place...but I think I shall save that for this coming week's discussion! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 18 2009, 2:43pm
Post #23 of 23
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I think I shall save that for this coming week's discussion!
I was forgetting that we're just about to get to the Grey Havens. I'm looking forward to what you have to tell us!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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