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weaver
Gondolin
Jan 9 2009, 2:21pm
Post #1 of 30
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Homeward Bound 5 -- " The travellers stayed in Bree all the next day, and Mr. Butterbur could not complain of his business next evening at any rate."
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The returning hobbits prove to be a popular attraction at Bree:
"Curiosity overcame all fears, and his house was crowded. For a while out of politeness the hobbits visited the Common Room in the evening and answered a good many questions."
News about Frodo's book is welcome...
"Bree memories being retentive, Frodo was asked many times if he had written his book.
'Not yet,' he answered. 'I am going home now to put my notes in order.' He promised to deal with the amazing events at Bree, and so give a bit of interest to a book that appeared likely to treat mostly of the remote and less important affairs 'away south'."
But a song is not…
"Then one of the younger folk called for a song. But at that a hush fell, and he was frowned down, and the call was not repeated. Evidently there was no wish for any uncanny events in the Common Room again."
We see the impact of the hobbits and Gandalf on Bree as they depart:
"The Bree folk were all out to see them off, and were in merrier mood than they had been for a year; and those who had not seen the strangers in all their gear before gaped with wonder at them: at Gandalf with his white beard, and the light that seemed to gleam from him, as if his blue mantle was only a cloud over sunshine; and at the four hobbits like riders upon errantry out of almost forgotten tales. Even those who had laughed at all the talk about the King began to think there might be some truth in it."
Butterbur wishes them well and warns them about the Shire:
"'Well, good luck on your road, and good luck to your home-coming! said Mr. Butterbur. 'I should have warned you before that all's not well in the Shire neither, if what we hear is true. Funny goings on, they say. But one thing drives out another, and I was full of my own troubles. But if I may be so bold, you've come back changed from your travels, and you look now like folk as can deal with troubles out of hand. I don't doubt you'll soon set all to rights. Good luck to you! And the oftener you come back the better I'll be pleased.'"
Questions:
1. What kind of questions do you think the Bree-folk asked the hobbits? Why is it merely "out of politeness" that the hobbits tell their tale – wouldn’t Pippin at least like an audience?
2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
3. Butterbur’s comments about the Shire, and the hobbits' ability to handle things there, are similar to what Gandalf voices later. What other examples can you cite of times in LotR when the same observation is made multiple times? How well does this technique work for you, in terms of how Tolkien tells his tale?
4. If the hobbits are now returning to the Primary World, are the Bree folk being given, through the hobbits, one last glimpse into the Secondary World?
5. How realistic is the response of the Bree folks in this part of the chapter?
6. Any other comments or questions?
Weaver
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 9 2009, 3:57pm
Post #2 of 30
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1. What kind of questions do you think the Bree-folk asked the hobbits?
Mostly questions relating to local concerns, I imagine, such as the return of the Rangers, Strider being the new King, the expectation of more travellers and safer roads, everything Gandalf said about Fornost and Lake Evendim in the north and the wilderness in the south -- i.e., all that they have been discussing with Butterbur. Maybe they'll ask a polite question or two about what the hobbits have been doing, but they clearly don't consider that as important as what has happened and is about to happen in Bree. I doubt very much that Frodo will explain what really happened when he disappeared in Bree, or the significance of the Ring, or the nature of the Black Riders -- it's enough to say there was a big war down south and the good guys won, and maybe that the Black Riders won't ever come back again.
Why is it merely "out of politeness" that the hobbits tell their tale – wouldn’t Pippin at least like an audience?
I think because the questions are likely to be repetitive and of local interest, and the tales the hobbits could tell are of little interest. The last time here Pippin got carried away telling the story of Bilbo's party, but that was a story about hobbits in a hobbit setting. Stories about ents and orcs and trolls won't be of much interest here. And like many war veterans and world travellers, the hobbits may feel unable or reluctant to tell their stories to non-soldiers and non-travellers who simply can't understand what the hobbits have experienced, or how they have changed.
But back in the Shire, there may be some young, impressionable hobbits who will find stories about ents and orcs and trolls and giant spiders and elves fascinating, hobbits like Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Sam when they were children. The untravelled elders will shake their heads and hope no trouble comes of it, but I'm sure that's the audience Merry and Pippin and Sam will seek out. Sadly, I'm not sure there are any more elves to visit in Middle-earth, and fewer monsters to slay, but perhaps some young hobbits will continue to disappear from time to time, in search of adventure.
2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
What was I just saying about young, impressionable hobbits? The elders, and many of the younger folk as well, don't want any magic, even though they have been saved, at least in part, by magic. I'm not sure what the younger person was thinking when he called for a song. Perhaps he simply forgot what happened a year ago. Or perhaps he remembered what happened, and was secretly eager for a repeat performance.
3. Butterbur’s comments about the Shire, and the hobbits' ability to handle things there, are similar to what Gandalf voices later. What other examples can you cite of times in LotR when the same observation is made multiple times?
Gosh, there's foreshadowing all over the place. It's not just Butterbur and Gandalf, but Elrond, Galadriel, and Aragorn who have also raised concerns about the Shire. The hobbits themselves have a premonition of trouble, and they should, because Saruman personally promised to cause trouble.
Other examples? How about the warning, from several sources, not to use the Ring? How about the premonition that Gollum would play a part in the fate of the Ring? How about all the talk of "luck," as people call it in Middle-earth? How about all the discussions of Aragorn's destiny? How about all the foreshadowing of the elves sailing west? Of Boromir trying to take the Ring? Of Saruman causing trouble? Heck, can anyone name anything that happens in LotR that isn't foreshadowed, outside of the Prologue and first couple of chapters?
How well does this technique work for you, in terms of how Tolkien tells his tale?
Obviously I have no problem with it, or I wouldn't be here. For me, foreshadowing builds suspense, and also raises the question of whether Higher Powers are involved. But Tolkien does a masterful job of foreshadowing without, on the one hand, giving away the plot, or on the other hand making the reader feel manipulated. Tolkien is a great tease! But he also knows how to deliver the payoff.
More later.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 9 2009, 5:17pm
Post #3 of 30
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4. If the hobbits are now returning to the Primary World, are the Bree folk being given, through the hobbits, one last glimpse into the Secondary World?
Most of the Bree folk don't want a glimpse into the Secondary World -- no uncanny events welcome, thank you very much. There may be one or two youthful exceptions. As I discussed in my previous post, I think the Bree folk probably reacted to the hobbits' tales much as Butterbur did -- with polite interest in tales of elves, monsters, and war, and real interest in matters of more local concern, like whether the roads will ever be safe again, when peace and peaceful visitors will return to Bree, and whether Strider is really King and really remembers Bree and, if so, what he plans to do for Bree.
5. How realistic is the response of the Bree folks in this part of the chapter?
To me it sounds very much like the reaction returning war veterans might have experienced in World War I and II, i.e., polite interest in tales of war and real interest in more local matters. Perhaps Tolkien is being unfair. Perhaps Breelanders should be a little more interested in war stories, especially if they are full of glory for the hobbits. But many old warriors find themselves reluctant to tell such stories anyway, from what I understand, because non-warriors simply don't understand war -- and also because it may mean reliving old traumas.
6. Any other comments or questions?
For all their lack of interest, Butterbur and the Breelanders welcome Gandalf and the hobbits much more enthusiastically than they would if they had not encountered their own troubles in the meantime. Compare their reception to Bilbo's in The Hobbit, where many hobbits were downright resentful that he returned, and all considered him much less respectable than before. Still, even this relatively-enthusiastic reception is a dramatic come-down from the honors the hobbits were given in Gondor and Rohan, and doubtless in Rivendell as well. The parade out of town also forms a nice counterpoint with previous events, when the Breelanders lined the streets to watch Strider and the hobbits leave town.
From what I can tell, the hobbits did not ride ponies from Rivendell to Bree, but Gandalf did bring Shadowfax. Did Gandalf and Shadowfax carry any supplies? Did Gandalf ride while the hobbits walked under heavy loads? Did the elves give them lembas and miruvor?
I think Gandalf walked along side the hobbits at, for him, a slow pace. I think Gandalf carried a pack, as I think he did on their journey to Moria. I think Shadowfax carried nothing, unless perhaps he agree to carry Frodo when he was feeling his wounds. Now they've given their supplies to Bill the pony, but I think Bill is proud to carry his load. And after all, Gandalf and Shadowfax are not making the trip to the Shire, but will turn off the road very shortly.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 9 2009, 5:26pm
Post #4 of 30
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I forgot there will be some elves around.
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Sadly, I'm not sure there are any more elves to visit in Middle-earth, and fewer monsters to slay, but perhaps some young hobbits will continue to disappear from time to time, in search of adventure.
Legolas and his people will settle Ithilien for a while, and will remain in Greenwood as well. Celeborn and Elrond's sons will remain in Rivendell for a while. There are probably still some elves in Lothlorien. And I'm sure there are still monsters out there as well, somewhere. One can hope so, at least. But it is clear that in a few generations elves and monsters of the non-human variety will be hard to find.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 9 2009, 7:13pm
Post #5 of 30
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1. What kind of questions do you think the Bree-folk asked the hobbits? Why is it merely "out of politeness" that the hobbits tell their tale – wouldn’t Pippin at least like an audience?
It shows how much the hobbits have changed that now they only visit the Common Room out of politeness (i.e., I suppose, as a favour to Butterbur), whereas last time they couldn't resist doing some socializing. They are certainly more subdued and, I'd guess, feeling out of step with the Bree locals whose interests will be quite naive and mundane compared to what the hobbits now know. (I wonder if this is where the filmmakers took their inspiration for the Green Dragon scene at the end of RotK?)
2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
I'd guess it's someone who was too young to be at the inn last time. So either he's so naive that what happened at Frodo's last visit completely passed him by, or (maybe more likely) he heard about it and wants to see it for himself. Those who actually did experience that night, however, definitely don't want to experience it again.
3. Butterbur’s comments about the Shire, and the hobbits' ability to handle things there, are similar to what Gandalf voices later. What other examples can you cite of times in LotR when the same observation is made multiple times? How well does this technique work for you, in terms of how Tolkien tells his tale?
I can't think of too many examples of this from earlier in the story. There are certainly lots of echoes between scenes, like the two blindfolding scenes (Lothlorien and Ithilien), but I'm getting the impression that the drip-drip of small observations repeated like this may be unique to this part of the story, and may be a way of building up a sense of disquiet by incremental revelations. As the hobbits leave Faerie, it's one small remark after another that gradually undermines their sense of happily-ever-after.
4. If the hobbits are now returning to the Primary World, are the Bree folk being given, through the hobbits, one last glimpse into the Secondary World?
I don't think the Bree folk are receptive enough to enter the Secondary World through the hobbits' stories. It's more that the Secondary World is gradually fading away from the four hobbits - or at least from the three hobbits who are capable of making the transition.
5. How realistic is the response of the Bree folks in this part of the chapter?
I guess it's what Tolkien experienced a lot during his lifetime - he had his intensely imagined world, but most people were deaf to what he had to say about it. Bilbo's guests felt much the same way - "they rather dreaded the after-dinner speech of their host (an inevitable item). He was liable to drag in bits of what he called poetry; and sometimes, after a glass or two, would allude to the absurd adventures of his mysterious journey." Most people, in fact, don't want to make the effort to understand something that's foreign to them - they are much more interested in local events. So the Bree folk, who are mostly interested in what Frodo intends to write about Bree in his book, and don't care at all about all that foreign stuff that happened "away south", are probably portrayed pretty realistically!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 9 2009, 8:25pm
Post #6 of 30
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We must be working with different definitions.
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I'm getting the impression that the drip-drip of small observations repeated like this may be unique to this part of the story, and may be a way of building up a sense of disquiet by incremental revelations. As the hobbits leave Faerie, it's one small remark after another that gradually undermines their sense of happily-ever-after.
As you will see, my answer was at the opposite end of the spectrum from yours, suggesting that almost nothing happens in LotR without foreshadowing of exactly this type. I can't help thinking we interpreted the technique differently -- I don't think you are suggesting that this is the only example of foreshadowing in LotR. Instead you seem to suggest a difference between the foreshadowing before Aragorn's marriage and the foreshadowing after, when Tolkien slowly undermines the reader's expectations of a happily-ever-after ending. I'll certainly buy the distinction between the two parts of the story, before and after Aragorn's marriage, as long as we agree that both parts of the story are full of foreshadowing.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 10 2009, 5:30am
Post #7 of 30
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sure would have liked to hear a song...
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What kind of questions do you think the Bree-folk asked the hobbits? Why is it merely "out of politeness" that the hobbits tell their tale – wouldn’t Pippin at least like an audience?
Certainly not "what's taters?" 
I wonder if the Hobbits just go throught the motions because they know nobody in the audience is really going to *get it*.
And I like FFH's idea that this might have been suggested in the film's Green Dragon scene.
2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
Oh-those young folk-just living in the moment-no fear, no sense of taboo topics!
Really, this is probably the saddest moment of this chapter for me. Don't sing! Something *bad* might happen. And I wonder I Frodo if would have--if the suggestion hadn't been met with such a lousy reaction.
3. Butterbur’s comments about the Shire, and the hobbits' ability to handle things there, are similar to what Gandalf voices later. What other examples can you cite of times in LotR when the same observation is made multiple times? How well does this technique work for you, in terms of how Tolkien tells his tale?
It works for me. Makes those observations less of a "ta da-I said it so it must be true" moment and more of well here's something we need to think about then later we revisit the idea and sure enough there's more to it.
4. If the hobbits are now returning to the Primary World, are the Bree folk being given, through the hobbits, one last glimpse into the Secondary World?
I don't think the Bree folk have ever been much interested in anything other than the Primary World.
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 10 2009, 6:11am
Post #8 of 30
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5. How realistic is the response of the Bree folks in this part of the chapter?
Not very. "Realistic" is a bad word to start bandying about this late in the game, wouldn't you say?
This episode is only part of Tolkien's larger scheme of bringing the hobbits "homeward" to a place where the War of the Ring belongs to legend. So the Breefolk are treated uniformly, to the last woman, man, and child, as bone-headed peasants without a thought except for their bellies and their beds. There are no institutions - no merchants - no leaders - no men of distinction or wise women with any education or curiosity at all. All those rare tales the Rangers and Dwarves have told for generations have had no effect on the burg's culture or worldview. All the legacy of cosmopolitanism you'd find in any trading town at a major crossroads is missing. The wealthy and worldly-wise Butterbur is the "mayor" of this town from our point of view, but he has no social peers or business associates. He is the only one during 36 hours in Bree with any dialogue. As one who is clearly the smartest man in Bree, his stupidity is offered as a source of great fun. His ability to see through a stone wall in time, mentioned at a different point in the story, is not wanted here and so does not appear.
Tolkien is more gifted as a sketch artist than as a fully committed painter, especially for social situations. Bree started as a quick sketch for the hobbits' early adventures, and served well in that regard. Now we are back to inspect it more closely, we've been here before, and we stay twice as long in far more relaxed circumstances. If we look for "realism", we discover that that quick sketch is all that Tolkien ever did or meant to do. The entire town is nothing more than a pretty backdrop, as thin and frayed and unsatisfying up close as any papier-mache rock or tree on a provincial theater's stage. The people are only dumb actors with no voice but what the penny-dreadful one-page script gives them.
No, Bree is not really nice - or rather, not really real. Let's move on to the Shire, where Tolkien puts some heart into his work.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 10 2009, 6:32am
Post #9 of 30
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All the legacy of cosmopolitanism you'd find in any trading town at a major crossroads is missing.
It hasn't been a major crossroads for hundreds of years.
As one who is clearly the smartest man in Bree, [Butterbur's] stupidity is offered as a source of great fun.
Don't you find it ironic that Sam is the one making fun of Butterbur for not recognizing the King, since Sam was just as befuddled as Butterbur a couple of chapters ago? And I think there is a difference between simple and stupid, as Sam also exemplifies, and Saruman exemplifies in a different way. Who's more foolish, Sam and Butterbur or Saruman and Denethor? Butterbur isn't stupid, he just isn't well-travelled, and isn't much interested in foreign affairs. He strikes me as realistic, especially in Tolkien's time or before, when travel and communications were much harder than today.
As for the people of Bree, I don't fault Tolkien for treating them like a chorus, and the fact that we don't know all their names doesn't make their parochial reaction to news from Outside unrealistic, in my opinion.
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 10 2009, 2:00pm
Post #10 of 30
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For another perspective on a parochial village's reaction to fantastic events. With more time and a need to focus on the villagers as the hero's protagonists, Tolkien gives us more social "realism" or depth, even though the work is a parody.
Of course villagers were simpler, on the whole, in medieval times. Some would say they still are. But Tolkien is manipulating and simplifying the concept of Bree for effect, rather than to achieve "realism". All the people of Bree do this, and then all the people of Bree say that. Even in villages, there is a range of personality and curiosity and perception, which is missing here. And Bree is still at a major crossroads, even though as you note there is far less traffic than there once was. From the map, there is no other way to get around eastern Eriador except through Bree. So even compared to nearby Archet or Staddle, Bree's folk still have many opportunities to meet and listen to strangers' tales, as is clear from the episode in Book I.
In his stories, whether epic or parodical, Tolkien's social realities are certainly based on medieval models. Then they are romanticized and simplified, and then manipulated for emotional or narrative effect. Why not? He writes a great story. But I was answering the relatively minor question about how much "realism" remains after all that authorial processing (or scene painting!).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 10 2009, 4:03pm
Post #11 of 30
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Yes, I totally agree about the foreshadowing
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...you seem to suggest a difference between the foreshadowing before Aragorn's marriage and the foreshadowing after, when Tolkien slowly undermines the reader's expectations of a happily-ever-after ending.
Foreshadowing, as you say, is a fundamental part of the storytelling throughout LotR. It's just that I sense something different about the hints and warnings that we're getting now. Before, the foreshadowing seemed mystical, full of strange possibilities whether for good or ill. But now the cryptic remarks seem less like foreshadowing (if we think of foreshadowing as something rather mysterious and magical), and more like the mundane, slowly-recognized symptoms of a growing unease.
So I guess you're right that I was defining "foreshadowing" quite narrowly, and that's what allowed me to distinguish it from the hints and signs we're getting now. But maybe I'm reading too much into the difference, because I already know what's coming!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 10 2009, 4:23pm
Post #12 of 30
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I was answering the relatively minor question about how much "realism" remains after all that authorial processing (or scene painting!).
Tolkien rarely if ever attempts "realism" in the hard-edged, twentieth-century literary defininition of the term. It's pretty much inimical to his whole project, I'd say.
All the people of Bree do this, and then all the people of Bree say that. Even in villages, there is a range of personality and curiosity and perception, which is missing here.
This is what I would call impressionistic writing, and it's one of many examples where it's useful to bear in mind that this is the story as seen, and later told, by the hobbits themselves. Of course not everyone in Bree reacted in exactly the same way, but the hobbits would have received an overall impression of the reaction they encountered. I know you dislike the idea that this really is meant to be a story seen through the eyes of the protagonists, but it does provide a better perspective, I find, for looking at scenes such as this one.
So yes, the scene is romanticised and simplified exactly as you would expect a travellers' tale to be. But underlying that is a sense of how people really do react. I still remember when I got back from my first trip to France and Switzerland as a student. It was an overwhelmingly new experience for me, and I was full of impressions and memories that I wanted to share with my family. They listened politely for a bit, but what they were really waiting for was the chance to give me all the bits of trivial, local news that had happened while I'd been away! They had never been abroad themselves, and, even with the best will in the world, what I was trying to describe was just too foreign for them to get a handle on or care about.
Of course, since then it's become usual for everyone to travel, and my parents ended up loving France and Switzerland themselves. But the point is, a traveller returning from an unfamiliar place is still likely to encounter just such a reaction as the hobbits received in Bree - to that extent, in terms of the impression the traveller would get, there is an underlying realism to the scene.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 10 2009, 5:13pm
Post #13 of 30
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I am sure there are many in Bree with more wisdom and curiosity. They wisely keep their mouths shut in the company of their more boorish peers. Haven't you all experienced this reality in your lives? This is, after all, a pub, not the mayor's court, nor the town square, nor a library or some other hang-out for intellectuals. It's where people go to drink beer, gossip, and speculate on what the weather's going to do to the crops. There might be all kinds of Breefolk bursting with unasked questions who just can't see opening their mouths in this venue, and who later regret missing their chance. I am sure that Bree has as many Farmer Maggots and Sam Gamgees as the Shire does, big and little, keenly watching the traveling hobbits from the shadowy corners of the inn, not saying a word.
Just because we happen to meet no one more authoritative than the innkeeper in passing through doesn't make him the de facto mayor. How often do you pass through a town and meet the mayor? No, you meet the innkeepers and the unimportant folks along the road.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 10 2009, 8:04pm
Post #14 of 30
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Once again, I need to define my terms. I think this chapter is highly realistic.
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But I agree that it is also impressionistic. I think it is realistic as opposed to romantic and fantastic, and not in the sense of detailed and three-dimensional.
I contrast this chapter to those in Gondor where Frodo and Sam received their honors, or Aragorn was crowned and then wed. Those chapters gave us the more typical romantic and fantastic ending to the fairy-tale. Now, in Bree, we have begun the more realistic ending, in which heroes do not always receive honor, or if they do receive honor it's for lesser deeds.
I find the polite conversation between the Breelanders and hobbits priceless, because there is such a gap in understanding between the well-travelled warriors and those they left behind. The Breelanders ask questions politely, but skittishly, wanting nothing uncanny to take place. The hobbits answer politely, but probably with great frustration as the Breelanders express interest only when the topic turns to Bree itself, and away from the less important events down south. It all foreshadows the same thing happening in the Shire, of course.
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 12:46pm
Post #15 of 30
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From what I can tell, the hobbits did not ride ponies from Rivendell to Bree, but Gandalf did bring Shadowfax.
The Hobbits do ride to the Shire, and I suppose the whole procession between Minas Tirith and Rivendell was mounted. I agree, it would be a nice tying-up to have them ride Merry's ponies again - but remember that Tolkien consider Barliman to have 'bought' them (he compensated Merry for their loss, and afterwards Tom Bombadl sent him the ponies), and they are not mentioned anywhere. And I suppose that with the rider-steed bonding Tolkien seems to love, Merry should by rights be riding Stybba!
Tolkien doesn't say either way; but I would prefer thinking they did ride to Bree. And anyway, why would Barliman be calling for Bob when the hobbits came in?
"I am going home now to put my notes in order" - Frodo
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 12:54pm
Post #16 of 30
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If this was the old boards, I'd give you mods up
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Really, this is probably the saddest moment of this chapter for me. Don't sing! Something *bad* might happen.
Love this comment! May I add to it?
In the previous chapter (as you should remember), we encountered two (or three, if you count Treebeard's roll of living creatures) songs. Gleowine lamented for Theoden, and made no other song. And Arwen sang - immediately afterwards offering Frodo free passage to the Havens, foreshadowing his inability to heal in Middle-Earth and ending the eucatastrophe of the preceding two chapters.
On the way back from Faerie to the Primary world, bad things happen once you start singing. How terrible!
After that, the next song we meet is when the Elves (and Frodo) bid farewell to Middle-Earth - but at least Merry and Pippin can sing when they reach the Shire on their way home. Sam can't.
"I am going home now to put my notes in order" - Frodo
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 1:08pm
Post #17 of 30
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A few answers, some to the point
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1. What kind of questions do you think the Bree-folk asked the hobbits? Why is it merely "out of politeness" that the hobbits tell their tale – wouldn’t Pippin at least like an audience?
It's merely out of politness that they go to the Common Room. They don't really want to provide the Bree-crowd free entertainment; they would like to be by themselves, with the possible exception of Butterbur.
2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
Young rascal. Probably for nothing more than to frighten and annoy his elders.
3. Butterbur’s comments about the Shire, and the hobbits' ability to handle things there, are similar to what Gandalf voices later. What other examples can you cite of times in LotR when the same observation is made multiple times? How well does this technique work for you, in terms of how Tolkien tells his tale?
Discussed already.
Personally, I like best the obscure occasions, in which such an observation is only hinted at, creating an atmosphere without giving away the tale.
4. If the hobbits are now returning to the Primary World, are the Bree folk being given, through the hobbits, one last glimpse into the Secondary World?
They might have, but they refused it.
They hush the youngster who asks for a song, and steer the conversation to local gossip.
5. How realistic is the response of the Bree folks in this part of the chapter?
Regarding the discussion between Curious and squire above - I tend to agree with Curious.
But when I first read your question, I thought it was refering to the Bree-folk's reaction to the hobbits leaving - which I thought pretty realistic, and not very two-dimensional.
6. Any other comments or questions?
The book! If Breelanders are so trivial, and so focused on local interests - how would their memories be so retentive? Or was Frodo's suggestion a year ago, of writing a book about Hobbits out of the Shire so fascinating to them?
Ragarding Hobbits outside the Shire - how well would A Passage to India sell?
"I am going home now to put my notes in order" - Frodo
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 11 2009, 1:12pm
Post #18 of 30
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The Hobbits do ride to the Shire, and I suppose the whole procession between Minas Tirith and Rivendell was mounted.
I agree that the whole party was mounted all the way from Minas Tirith. They were certainly mounted as they left Orthanc: "The travellers now rode with more speed, and they made their way towards the Gap of Rohan..", and after parting with Aragorn when they "turned west and rode through the Gap into the waste lands beyond" (which is why they were able to overtake Saruman and Wormtongue, who were on foot).
There's another bit of evidence when they meet Saruman and he asks for pipeweed: "'You can have what I have got left,' said Merry, 'if you will wait a moment.' He got down and searched in the bag at his saddle."
All the above are from Many Partings, but there's more evidence in this very chapter: "When they came to the Ford of Bruinen, [Frodo] had halted, and seemed loth to ride into the stream...After that the journey went well, and the days went quickly by; for they rode at leisure...So it was that near the end of a wild and wet evening in the last days of October the five travellers rode up the climbing road and came to the South-gate of Bree.
So yes, I agree that they did ride to Bree, and I also think that Tolkien makes this fairly clear! (I also like your final piece of evidence, about Bob being called - nice catch!)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 11 2009, 1:27pm
Post #19 of 30
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If Breelanders are so trivial, and so focused on local interests - how would their memories be so retentive?
I can think of a number of reasons. First, Frodo's visit was the most exciting thing that had happened for ages. Second, the very idea of writing a book was astonishing to them: "...He said he was thinking of writing a book (at which there was silent astonishment)". Third, they are assuming this book will be focused on local interests - those "hobbits outside the Shire" are themselves, the hobbits of Bree, and they volunteered enough information "for several chapters" when Frodo was here before! Of course, they now realize that there's going to be some other boring stuff about battles in the south in there too, but still...
In those pre-printing days, a book with you in it would be as rare and exciting as a movie with you in it might be today. If Peter Jackson had filmed a few background scenes at your local pub while he was making LotR, wouldn't you be eagerly awaiting the release of the movie so you could see if you made the cut?
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 3:13pm
Post #20 of 30
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Thanks for the correction. However, my point about Shadowfax
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stands -- I can't imagine Shadowfax walking all the way from Rohan to Rivendell to the Barrow-downs at the pace of a pony!
And did Shadowfax carry supplies?
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 11 2009, 3:18pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 3:23pm
Post #21 of 30
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2. Why is it “one of the younger folk” who calls for a song?
Young rascal. Probably for nothing more than to frighten and annoy his elders.
LOL!
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 4:27pm
Post #22 of 30
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This "book" question is something I'd never thought about before. We know that "many" Shire hobbits never learn their letters (as opposed to most), suggesting that a fair-sized minority does. The above generalization can be qualified somewhat: the gaffer's suspicion of Sam's literacy compared to the vast correspondence Bilbo has with his extended kin tells us that the distribution of literacy in the Shire is tied to class. The Shire's thriving middle class of merchants, artisans, and restauranteers must be added to the landowning upper class in our estimate of who is "lettered", to account for a large minority of the population who can read and write.
Now, we next can observe that although Bree is more like the Shire in terms of cultural development than either group likes to acknowledge, Butterbur's pride in his ability to read indicates that relatively fewer of the Bree-folk are literate than in the Shire. This might follow from the Bree land being much smaller than the Shire, and so having a much smaller leisure or owner class.
Does either group, Shire or Bree, have a printing press for mass production of written material? Surely not, it wouldn't be in keeping with the general medieval setting. So what manuscripts do all these literate people read? Mostly letters, contracts and business accounts: short and/or sweet. Almost all the "literature" is preserved by oral tradition, only a few from the great families preserving written copies of tales and songs. There is also the peculiarly hobbitlike interest in geneology which was widespread even in the lower classes, but which was primarily expressed through the drafting of family trees rather than written accounts. If we think of "books" as large bound codices of handwritten pages, like what we know of Bilbo's book and the hypothetical Red Book, etc., then the number of books in the Shire must be relatively small, and in Bree, vanishingly small. Remember that the monasteries were the primary generators of books in medieval Europe, where a literate priest class had both free time, economic means, and a calling to accumulate and preserve learning. Middle-earth, except perhaps in Gondor and Rivendell, has nothing like this.
As Bilbo's heir, Frodo is a gentlehobbit of extraordinary means and education. His cover story of "writing a book" when he first visits Bree may make sense to him, but to the crowd in the Pony it is extraordinary. They may know what a "book" is, but it's not clear from the analysis given above that any of them have ever read, or perhaps, even seen one. Perhaps an ancient or two from one of Bree's landowning families, like those in the Shire, had written and bound an odd book of family lore or agricultural guidelines, to the mute astonishment of the lower orders.
Following this line of thought, I tend to doubt that the Bree folk (as crudely generalized here as anywhere else in this episode) would remember Frodo's book because of some interest in reading it themselves. Along with the low level of general literacy, remember that copies of books would be extraordinarily rare and expensive. Frodo's "book" is not exactly going to be on sale in Bree at the "bookstalls" because there is no such market in the pre-printing days. The Bree folk have no reason to expect him to bequeath them a copy. In fact, with books being so little a part of their lives, it's hard to believe this is the one thing they focus on when they see Frodo again.
To me, this all begs the question of why Tolkien added this detail of a clamor for news of Frodo's book, which I consider "unrealistic" on numerous levels. I guess that Tolkien himself, a lover and writer of books, projected himself into the story here. He made up Frodo's "cover story" in the first volume, and so he remembers it now (in any case, he probably re-read the earlier chapters carefully when writing "Homeward Bound"). You might say that had he lived in Bree, Tolkien would certainly have remembered Mr. Underhill and his local history researches!
Tolkien's willingness to mix and match the levels of the Shire's economic, technological and cultural development is part of the charm of The Lord of the Rings. Bree gets a similar treatment. The inconsistencies which most commentators (like me) point out are not really harmful to the story; in many ways, they enhance it by making Middle-earth so indeterminate. This collective recall of a book project that can't have any meaning to the collective, actually works primarily because the book is about local history. That ties into both the major chapter point about the Bree folk being only interested in local affairs, and the long-running gag about hobbits' books almost exclusively being geneological accounts.
Hidden to the Bree folk, but clearer to us, is how Frodo's cover story about an interest in hobbits that live outside the Shire is a literary expression of his quest -- a project that is the inverse of:
But in the days of Bilbo, and of Frodo his heir, [the hobbits] suddenly became, by no wish of their own, both important and renowned, and troubled the counsels of the Wise and the Great.
You might say that for Frodo as he left the Shire and entered the wild, "The Wise and the Great suddenly became important and known, and troubled the authors of the Shire and of Bree."
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 11 2009, 6:43pm
Post #23 of 30
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isn't really accurate because, as you point out, most of the Bree hobbits would never have been able to read the book for themselves, whereas we can all watch a movie. The analogy is accurate in one way, though, perhaps - there's a kind of glamour and power attached to the idea of books in the Middle Ages, even if you can't read them yourself (or especially if you can't, I suppose). Words read out of a book were practically magical - that's where the idea of the "spell" comes from. To know that words on a page were written about you, even if you had to rely on someone else to read them out to you, would probably have been pretty exciting back then.
Of course, as you say, Tolkien blithely mixes historic periods and registers, so that in some ways the hobbits are more like 19th century peasants than medieval ones. Even in the 19th century many of the peasants woujldn't have been able to read, and would probably have found the idea of being mentioned in a book something to feel proud about, but of course there would have been plenty of printed books in circulation by then. I guess the lack of realistic detail at this level actually benefits the fantasy, since it doesn't allow us to pin things down to any particular time and place in the Primary World. It's a place that's almost, but never quite, like the world we know.
Butterbur's pride in his ability to read indicates that relatively fewer of the Bree-folk are literate than in the Shire.
I don't think Butterbur would be considered of the normally lettered class. Publicans usually were usually seen as at the top end of the working-class, but no more than that, I think (that's how the BBC radio dramatization depicts him, anyway, judging by the accent). He's just high enough that he's acquired some basic reading skills, but he's really at the limit of his knowledge. Still, he's clearly more enlightened than the Gaffer, who actively rejects reading and writing as being something worrying and potentially dangerous for ordinary folk to meddle in.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 11 2009, 7:55pm
Post #24 of 30
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I don't think it is unrealistic for illiterate people to
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express interest in a book in which they may appear. On the contrary, in a world where books are rare, it may be all the more exciting to know that you will be included in one.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 11 2009, 10:13pm
Post #25 of 30
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Here I had begun to worry that I had mis-visualized the entire journey home for all these years!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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