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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 18 2008, 5:16am
Post #1 of 6
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Many Partings IV: "Mine, mine, yes and dearly bought!"
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Early morning=early night="early" post...
On August 28, the (now even smaller) group of travelers meets up with Saruman and Grima, a bit west of the Misty Mountains, somewhere in Dunland, I believe.
Saruman seems to be a mere shadow of his former grand self. His pettiness and distrust make me think of Gollum.
1) Does anyone else see similarities between these two?
2) When Saruman refers to his “poverty” in this section is he simply referring to materials goods?
Gandalf really does some downplaying of what Saruman might be up to next with his “…he could do some mischief still in a small mean way” remark.
3) Is he returning to being the *close* Gandalf the Grey?
From September 6-13 the travelers linger near the Gates of Moria.
4) Hey, Elrond is here! We haven’t heard a word of or from him since way back in Edoras-almost one month ago! No conversation with Treebeard, no goodbyes to Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli? I would guess that this could be Tolkien’s way of letting us know Elrond is mourning the loss of his daughter.
Comments?
What about those Dunlendings that fled and hid themselves as the travelers passed through? Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-Earth reports that these people (described as “tall and somewhat swarthy…dark hair…primitive, uncultured, and superstitious”) once occupied the valleys of the Ered Nimrais (in Rohan). Some were noted to have moved north during the Second Age-- with the men of Bree being the northernmost surviving branch.
5) Is Butterbur a member of that northernmost surviving branch?
Saruman in a *snit*
Now maybe I’m way off base but the following sentence jumped out at me as *different* in its style (?)-maybe the use of “and”:
“One thief deserves another,” said Saruman, and turned his back on Merry, and kicked Wormtongue, and went away towards the woods. Is this typical Tolkien writing? Is there a *typical* with Tolkien?
Bonus: Did Merry get his pouch back?
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 20 2008, 3:46am
Post #2 of 6
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Saruman seems to be a mere shadow of his former grand self. His pettiness and distrust make me think of Gollum. 1) Does anyone else see similarities between these two?
I see more similarities between Wormtongue and Gollum than between Saruman and Gollum. But perhaps Saruman is to Gandalf as Gollum is to Frodo -- in which case I can see why the exchange between Saruman and Gandalf reminds you of Gollum.
2) When Saruman refers to his “poverty” in this section is he simply referring to materials goods?
Yes. Certainly he is not acknowledging a poverty of spirit, or power. Instead he is acting the victim; all his possessions have been stolen from him, and he is now begging from those who did the stealing.
Gandalf really does some downplaying of what Saruman might be up to next with his “…he could do some mischief still in a small mean way” remark.
3) Is he returning to being the *close* Gandalf the Grey?
I think, rather, Gandalf has become more like the elves or Bombadil, no longer responsible for the peoples of Middle-earth. So although he is far more aware of the danger Saruman poses than the hobbits, he merely mentions it in passing, and does not say more until weeks later, when he warns the hobbits that the Shire may be much changed.
From September 6-13 the travelers linger near the Gates of Moria.
4) Hey, Elrond is here! We haven’t heard a word of or from him since way back in Edoras-almost one month ago! No conversation with Treebeard, no goodbyes to Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli? I would guess that this could be Tolkien’s way of letting us know Elrond is mourning the loss of his daughter.
Comments?
I find it particularly strange that we did not witness Elrond's good-bye to Aragorn, his foster son. But then that might have placed too much emphasis on the icky foster sibling relationship between Aragorn and Arwen. I don't know if Elrond knew Treebeard, and he wasn't close to Legolas or Gimli.
And by the way, what happened to Arwen's brothers? Did they stay with Aragorn? Did they say good-bye to their father? That's one loose end Tolkien never ties.
I'm not sure Tolkien did this to show that Elrond was in mourning. I think Elrond just didn't have much to say to Treebeard or Saruman.
What about those Dunlendings that fled and hid themselves as the travelers passed through? Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-Earth reports that these people (described as “tall and somewhat swarthy…dark hair…primitive, uncultured, and superstitious”) once occupied the valleys of the Ered Nimrais (in Rohan). Some were noted to have moved north during the Second Age-- with the men of Bree being the northernmost surviving branch.
5) Is Butterbur a member of that northernmost surviving branch?
Yes. Which I like -- it shows that the Dunlendings aren't all bad.
Saruman in a *snit*
Now maybe I’m way off base but the following sentence jumped out at me as *different* in its style (?)-maybe the use of “and”:
“One thief deserves another,” said Saruman, and turned his back on Merry, and kicked Wormtongue, and went away towards the woods. Is this typical Tolkien writing? Is there a *typical* with Tolkien?
It's not the high style we might expect in a discussion of Saruman. It's more like the narration involving the hobbits, and may prepare us for the way Saruman presents himself in the Shire, not as one of the Istari, but as a petty, and seemingly very human, tyrant.
Bonus: Did Merry get his pouch back?
It's possible that they found it later. Whether Merry wanted it back at that point I don't know.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 20 2008, 5:20am
Post #3 of 6
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Yes. Certainly he is not acknowledging a poverty of spirit, or power. Instead he is acting the victim; all his possessions have been stolen from him, and he is now begging from those who did the stealing.
I think Saruman's playing-the-victim is why I see him as *like* Gollum, although maybe he did actually purchase the pipe-weed and does have a valid reason to cry "thief".
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 20 2008, 5:25am
Post #4 of 6
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see themselves as victims.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 21 2008, 8:21am
Post #5 of 6
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A few thoughts, some to the point
[In reply to]
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1) Does anyone else see similarities between these two?
As far as I remember, Tom Shippey does, seeing them both as being on a process of 'wraithing'.
2) When Saruman refers to his “poverty” in this section is he simply referring to materials goods?
I think so, although not because of the reasons Curious mentioned; Saruman has a pretty low opinion of hobbits (based on his Shire-experience, quite rightly!) and thinks that is the only thing they will understand. Note his last words to Frodo, in 'The Scouring of the Shire'.
3) Is he returning to being the *close* Gandalf the Grey?
Well, Sam was quite right in guessing what Saruman might have done, but he didn't realise how long and deep it went.
And Gandalf was also quite right in supposing the hobbits could deal with it by themselves.
4) Hey, Elrond is here! We haven’t heard a word of or from him since way back in Edoras-almost one month ago! No conversation with Treebeard, no goodbyes to Aragorn, Legolas or Gimli? I would guess that this could be Tolkien’s way of letting us know Elrond is mourning the loss of his daughter.
Comments?
I'm not sure about the mourning part. It's simply that Tolkien doesn't record all the conversations.
Treebeard needed a closure with Celeborn and Galadriel, and with Pippin and Merry.
However, I agree that his farewell to Aragorn is missing.
5) Is Butterbur a member of that northernmost surviving branch?
I suppose so.
Is this typical Tolkien writing? Is there a *typical* with Tolkien?
I'm pretty sure there is a 'one good turn deserves another' somewhere, but can't remember where; and in 'The Scouring of the Shire', Saruman says: 'one ill turn deserves another'. At the very least, there is the 'third time pays for all' between Sam and Gollum.
Saruman is parodying hobbit's style, to make them feel sorry for him. Another (unnoticed) instance of the power of hos voice.
Bonus: Did Merry get his pouch back?
Need to read 'The Scouring' again. Merry wished he would have stuffed the pouch down Saruman's throat, but did he recover it? Don't remember.
"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2008, 7:52pm
Post #6 of 6
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(and this thought is likely heavily film-influenced)--orcs, for the most part, make me think of a group of teenagers in a state of arrested development-no sense of accountablility, no empathy, bad behavior is someone else's fault...
Are they victims? Maybe-- if this state is part if their *doom* --the biological/emotional inability to develop into the more discerning, thoughtful, heroic, "good" characters.
On the other hand--Saruman certainly *knew* better and his choices resulted in his being a *victim* of, if anything, the circumstances--but that doesn'tet him "off the hook".
Smeagol/Gollum--questionable--how mature/developed (would he have been considered a 'tween in the Shire?) was he when he came into possession of the Ring?
Grima...hmmm. As a Man with a pretty "high" position in the King's court I would think he *knew* better too but as Dreamdeer noted in her reply (MP part 6) the Rohirrim have had a mistrustful attitude towards the Elves. No doubt that Saruman played on this to *turn* Grima. Still he's not "off the hook" either.
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