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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 17 2008, 6:43am
Post #1 of 12
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Many Partings III: "Welcome to Treegarth of Orthanc!"
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 The traveling company is smaller now with Arwen, Eomer, Faramir and Imrahil remaining in Edoras. During the two day stop at Helm’s Deep (August 18 and 19) Legolas makes good on his word and visits the Glittering Caves with Gimli. Then the group continues on and arrives at Isengard on August 22.
After praising the deeds of all the travelers (and I can only imagine how long that account lasted), Treebeard asks Gandalf two questions.
Where now would you be going? And why do you come here?
1) Did Gandalf deliberately not answer the first one?
“Here then at last comes the ending of the Fellowship of the Ring” (sigh!)
2) I wonder-- is Gimli’s apparent reluctance to leave related to this ending or his dread of visiting the “deep place of the Entwood” which Legolas seems so eager to see?
Comments on Legolas being “eager” as opposed to Gimli agreeing “with no great delight”?
A matter of he said/she said--
Twice in this chapter Galadriel and Celeborn’s statements seem to be in opposition to each other. First, in response to Treebeard’s “I do not think we shall meet again”
C: “I do not know.” G: “Not in Middle-earth…”
and then in their leaving taking of Aragorn
G: …you have come to your hope, and now have all you desire. Use well the days!
*C: May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!”
I noted a couple of other examples of this in “The Mirror of Galadriel” such as--
C: “…maybe there has been some change in council…”
G: “Nay, there was no change in council…”
and
C: “…at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly…”
G:” Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.”
3) Any opinions about the Lord and Lady’s fairly frequent contradicting comments?
How, if at all, may this be related to Celeborn’s *above comment to Aragorn.
Any thoughts on additional events happening in this section of the chapter are welcome.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 18 2008, 3:28pm
Post #2 of 12
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A few thoughts, some to the point
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1) Did Gandalf deliberately not answer the first one?
He could answer pretty innocently 'to Rivendell'. No, I think this is more of a rhetorical question from Treebeard.
2) I wonder-- is Gimli’s apparent reluctance to leave related to this ending or his dread of visiting the “deep place of the Entwood” which Legolas seems so eager to see?
Yes.
But it interesting that after all he went through, Gimli still hasn't conquered his fear of the trees.
Comments on Legolas being “eager” as opposed to Gimli agreeing “with no great delight”?
That's probably a reason they didn't film this chapter; looking eager would overstrech Orlando's facial muscels.
3) Any opinions about the Lord and Lady’s fairly frequent contradicting comments?
Elves are like 19th century men - they like their wives beautiful, wise and obedient.
Celeborn got two out of three; he probably was a young romantic, and made light of the difficulties.
But like most young romantics, he didn't realise these problems will stay for a whole lifetime.
And a High Elf's lifetime is pretty long.
How, if at all, may this be related to Celeborn’s *above comment to Aragorn.
You're right! 
But once you go in this direction, you can't blame me for a post full of silliness.
"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 18 2008, 5:31pm
Post #3 of 12
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Oh gosh, you're right! I had always assumed that Celeborn referred to losing Lothlorien. But now that you mention it, the context is, after all, Aragorn's marriage to Arwen. The various accounts of Galadriel in "Unfinished Tales" vary widely, yet they do seem to have a common thread of her spending long periods of time separated from Celeborn. And though Celeborn was a scholar among his own people, he seems to have completely fallen into Galadriel's shadow. She pointedly and repeatedly ignores everything that he says. And ultimately, she goes to Elvenhome and leaves him behind!
Elves mate for life. That doesn't necessarily mean that the match always works out. No wonder Gimli felt free to openly flirt with her, however platonically.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Dec 18 2008, 5:32pm)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 18 2008, 8:02pm
Post #4 of 12
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since she was standing in Lúthien's shadow! 
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 18 2008, 9:26pm
Post #5 of 12
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But Galadriel never married Luthien. //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 19 2008, 2:26am
Post #6 of 12
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The first few times I read the line...
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I thought Celeborn was simply saying his hope for Aragorn is that his *treasure* (Arwen) remains with him until the end. Is that it?
Or is the implication more like I hope she stays with you until your end-- it's better to leave than be left?
Or can we separate Celeborn's word into two distinct statements:
"May your doom be other than mine" (yeah she's wise and beautful but tends to contradict me in public)
and
"your treasure remain with you to the end" (hope your wife stays with you-always!)
Whatever the case--I do feel some sympathy for Celeborn now. In one sentence Tolkien has taken Celeborn from a pretty wooden/one-dimensional/background character in this story to one worthy of deeper consideration.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 19 2008, 5:50am
Post #7 of 12
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...it would be a might queer if Galadriel had married Lúthien, now, wouldn't it?
*ducks*
I had always understood that statement to be only one component: i.e. Celeborn loves Galadriel, and doesn't like being separated from her, and wishes that Aragorn not be separated from his wife. I otherwise don't think it would make sense if the meaning were that Celeborn is resentful that his wife is Galadriel for him to put the two comments into one sentence like that.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 19 2008, 4:11pm
Post #8 of 12
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I don't see Celeborn as resentful, merely underappreciated. It seems as though in those initial, heady days in Doriath the conversation never seemed to stop, as the two found each other immensely intellectually stimulating. But Galadriel eventually plumbed the limits of Celeborn's knowledge of Middle Earth, that originally had seemed so strange and fascinating to her, and perhaps became bored. Whereas her own knowledge ultimately exceeds his, because she studied under both Aule and Yavannah, and knows Arda as a whole like he never can. I get the impression that she studied him like an anthropologist might study the wise man of a primitive tribe, becoming close for a time, but then leaving to discuss her quaint findings with other anthropologists. And they, being young (for elves) mistook this for love. And maybe it really was love, but not of a lasting kind. Galadriel strikes me as cavalier to him.
Maybe Celeborn's still passionately, achingly in love with her, and calls her his treasure, yet cannot entertain her hungry mind enough to keep her home. His home is not, after all, entirely hers, from her point of view. Oh, she tried to make it so, to the best of her ability, but even with the ring she knew it was something of a sham, and without it the difference became unbearable. He, for his part, is not yet ready to leave his beloved Middle-Earth--the only home that he has ever known. They must part ways. He does not know if he can ever force himself to abandon everything he knows and loves, to cross the sea.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Elros
Ossiriand
Dec 19 2008, 5:02pm
Post #9 of 12
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how I interpreted Celeborn's words as well.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 20 2008, 12:31am
Post #10 of 12
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I was thinking from a "world order" standpoint
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I guess the thing that I am objecting to is the assumption that Galadriel doesn't love Celeborn anymore.
Galadriel has made a promise to go into the west so that she is not corrupted and turned evil by the taints and temptations of Middle Earth. She has to leave. Celeborn, meanwhile, has obligations in Middle Earth - but, that said, I also had the impression that it was his ultimate intention to sail to Aman himself one day, just that he and his love would be separated for a long period of time.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 20 2008, 2:06am
Post #11 of 12
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1) Did Gandalf deliberately not answer the first one?
Yes, Gandalf did deliberately not answer the first one, focusing on the second one. Treebeard is being coy here, and knows quite well what brings Gandalf to Isengard, but Treebeard dances around the fact that he has breached his trust and released Saruman without permission. Gandalf is not fooled.
“Here then at last comes the ending of the Fellowship of the Ring” (sigh!)
Indeed, for me this chapter is full of sighs, and perhaps more melancholy than The Grey Havens.
2) I wonder-- is Gimli’s apparent reluctance to leave related to this ending or his dread of visiting the “deep place of the Entwood” which Legolas seems so eager to see?
Gimli may be in no hurry to break up the Fellowship, but I think he also genuinely dreads Fangorn Forest. Remember that he carries an axe, and, in the absence of Ents, Fangorn Forest would be more dangerous than the Old Forest. Also, he may enjoy teasing Legolas, who is so obviously eager.
Comments on Legolas being “eager” as opposed to Gimli agreeing “with no great delight”?
What is there to say? What's remarkable is that they are friends at all, wood-elf and mountain-dwarf. But they still have their differences.
A matter of he said/she said--
Twice in this chapter Galadriel and Celeborn’s statements seem to be in opposition to each other. First, in response to Treebeard’s “I do not think we shall meet again”
C: “I do not know.” G: “Not in Middle-earth…”
I don't see this as contradiction. Celeborn is staying in Middle-earth, and may meet Treebeard again. Galadriel is leaving Middle-earth, and will not return, although she expresses her faith that they will meet again when Arda is Remade.
and then in their leaving taking of Aragorn
G: …you have come to your hope, and now have all you desire. Use well the days!
*C: May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!”
...
3) Any opinions about the Lord and Lady’s fairly frequent contradicting comments?
How, if at all, may this be related to Celeborn’s *above comment to Aragorn.
Again, this is not a contradiction. Celeborn simply comments on Galadriel's imminent departure. When Tolkien wrote this dialogue Celeborn might not have been allowed to sail West, for as originally conceived Celeborn was not one of the High Elves. But after finishing the text Tolkien relented, and in the Prologue he implies that Celeborn eventually did follow Galadriel to Elvenhome, after what for an elf would be a brief delay. That later change makes this dialogue less poignant.
Any thoughts on additional events happening in this section of the chapter are welcome.
More melancholy:
We meet Fangorn, and learn that Treebeard has broken his trust and released Saruman. Gandalf worries that Saruman, although without magic, still has the power of his voice, and knew Treebeard's weak spot.
Aragorn wishes Treebeard well, but Treebeard becomes sad. "‘Forests may grow,’ he said. ‘Woods may spread. But not Ents. There are no Entings.’"
Legolas and a reluctant Gimli agree to visit Fangorn with Treebeard, which means, as Aragorn notes, "at least comes the ending of the Fellowship of the Ring."
Treebeard says a melancholy farewell to Celeborn and Galadriel. "'For the world is changing: I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think we shall meet again.’" Galadriel offers a rather bleak response: "‘Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!’"
Aragorn says farewell, and the "hobbits were grieved."
Celeborn offers Aragorn a melancholy farewell. "‘Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!’"
What happened to the Happy Ending? What happened to "and they all lived happily ever after"? Do we really want to live in the Age of Man, if it means the end of Faerie? Why does Tolkien do this to us? Why must the fairy tale end, and the Age of Man begin? Didn't Tolkien believe his own theories of Escape and Consolation? Why, then, is Tolkien letting all the air out of the Consolation of the Happy Ending?
Is it because, in his heart of hearts, Tolkien believes that history is a long decline, and happy endings are ephemeral and transitory, at least until, as Galadriel says, Arda Marred becomes Arda Remade? Maybe we have caught a "far off gleam of evangelium," but it's only a gleam, and a far-off gleam at that. Maybe they do live happily ever after, but not necessarily all in the same place, and not before many sad farewells.
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