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ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
Dec 13 2008, 3:50pm
Post #1 of 10
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VI.5. The Steward and the King #4 The Lovers
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At NEB's suggestion, I am putting days 2 through 4 up as open discussion and will chime in as able.
Eowyn Aragorn, Faramir
age 24
last seen in the Houses of Healing, March 20
Arwen Aragorn
age 2778
last seen in Rivendell October 24, 3018, the night before the Council
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 16 2008, 8:02am
Post #2 of 10
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- How did Faramir learn so much from Merry? Did he jump to the guess Eowyn wished to be loved by the lord Aragorn on the spur of the moment, based on her saying she wished to be loved by another? Consider Merry's first view of her in 'The Muster of Rohan':
'All is well,' she answered; yet it seemed to Merry that her voice belied her. - A tear sprang in her eye and fell down her cheek, like a glistening rain-drop. Is this Eowyn's first tear - since when? In 'The Passing of the Grey Company', it seems to those near her that she wept, if it was possible (and to Merry in the passage quoted above). Did she?
- What is the significance of the mantle of Finduilas? Note that Eowyn, 'The White Lady of Rohan', becomes veiled by her dark blue mantle at the same time Aragorn is robed in his white one; and that it is called 'her starry mantle'.
- Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. Which?
- Eowyn does not go to the field of Cormallen. However, she does go to Edoras, to prepare King Theoden's funeral - as closure to what? To her relation with her second father, or as a farewell to the country and people she grew up in?
- Most important: where is Darkstone? We are discussing his favourite heroine!
That's all I could think about; I'm not such a romantic soul, alas!
About Arwen, I have even less to say - but Frodo's words about her are extremely interesting:
At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day alone shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away! - This is the ending is a striking sentence, in my opinion. The ending of what? I would suggest, of the two short chapters of eucatastrophe, of 'joy beyond the walls of the world'. We return to the last four disappointing (only in terms of our hopes for Frodo!) chapters.
- An aside: do you think my last suggestion is a religious, or actually a cynical one?
- Considering that Frodo's hopes will not be fulfilled, at least not for himself - does this spoil the eucatastrophe for you?
"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Dec 19 2008, 5:52pm
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I've got a question...towards the beginning, when Eowyn is first meeting Faramir, what makes her doubt herself "for the first time"? What, exactly, is Faramir telling her that is making her finally collapse on herself a bit?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 21 2008, 3:45am
Post #4 of 10
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"...and saw the grave tenderness
[In reply to]
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in his eyes, and yet knew...that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle." Including herself! It was one thing to complain to the "commoners" running the Houses; but now she's met her match - and here he is, under care as well, and not fussing about it.
She's not only doubting, she's feeling a bit embarrassed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Dec 21 2008, 4:01am
Post #5 of 10
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1. How did Faramir learn so much from Merry?
All Merry had to do was give his eye-witness account: little things like Éowyn's reaction to Aragorn's letting them know he must take the Paths of the Dead, his impression of her face when he first saw her in disguise, etc. Faramir is very good at putting two and two together to make four...and putting words and actions together to make one despairing nurse-princess.
2. A tear sprang in her eye and fell down her cheek, like a glistening rain-drop. Is this Eowyn's first tear - since when?
It probably was at Aragorn's departure; afterwards, she would have hardened her heart, and concentrated on seeking death.
3. What is the significance of the mantle of Finduilas?
It is appropriate for visiting royalty to be allowed to wear a late queen's garment, but I can see two deeper meanings. First, that Faramir is bringing Éowyn into his household, and she is accepting this; and second, this is symbolic of the Nighttime, which, from the coming presence of Arwen, will be "beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away".
4. Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. Which?
Both. She now understood what her heart had been, and why; and allowed it to change.
5. Eowyn...does go to Edoras, to prepare King Theoden's funeral - as closure to what? To her relation with her second father, or as a farewell to the country and people she grew up in?
Yes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 21 2008, 7:25am
Post #6 of 10
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the White Lady of Rohan is about to be covered by the mantle of Nighttime.
Doesn't it sound as is her light is about to be dimmed, or quenched?
"I had so much to do here; and packing is such a bother" - Bilbo
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Galadriel1a
Lindon
Dec 29 2008, 3:18pm
Post #7 of 10
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I think the significance of the mantle is that it once belonged to Faramir´s mother. So it is his way of saying, to Eowyn, I am serious about this, not just flirting with you to make the stay in the Houses of Healing more fun.
An as for stars on the mantle I guess its the Evening Star that is first on the night sky .......
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dernwyn
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Dec 30 2008, 3:46am
Post #8 of 10
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Hers had been the blinding light of harsh days; it is now to be replaced by the soft, warm light of star-filled night.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 30 2008, 5:24am
Post #9 of 10
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Are you sure you're not forcing some rather strained images down Tolkien's throat? "Blinding light of harsh days"? "Soft, warm light of star-filled night"? Not very Tolkienian, I say.
Rather than try to answer the question by making day into night and vice versa, let's take the approach that the question is flawed.
"Doesn't it sound as if her light is about to be dimmed, or quenched?"
Yes, the mantle represents a dark and starry night - and grief - as well as royalty in the Numenorean style. But remember that in this scene there is doubt about the future of the world. It is very cold and drear as they wait for who knows what news from the North. Even under the warmth of the mantle Eowyn is shivering. The cloak isn't dimming or quenching Eowyn's light; to the degree that the mantle symbolizes the darkness (as opposed to Numenor), it represents Eowyn's still-strong doubts about life and love.
And remember, she is not even called the "White Lady of Rohan" until after the mantle is described. When he calls her that, Faramir perceives her inner light as a symbol of the victory that must come, even when all signs are still pointing to their doom. Soon enough his prophecy comes true, and the hair is flowing and the juices too, and we never hear about that cloak again. Looked at this way, the question has become:
"Doesn't it sound as if her light is about to be revealed?"
In the right kind of movie, that cloak would puddle at her feet just before the cutaway.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 30 2008, 12:12pm
Post #10 of 10
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I'm forcing some strained, melodramatic images into sador's response!  (I'd actually written more, but it was starting to read like a badly-written romance novel, so I deleted it before posting.)
Good point about that mantle never being seen again - as if, beyond this point, it's own ability to shield the Shieldmaiden is no longer required. A manifestation of transition, then!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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