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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Dec 7 2008, 12:12am
Post #1 of 27
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Lonely Mountain, Crowded Expectations
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There is a great essay at www.thecimmerian.com about expectations of The Hobbit movie. TheCimmerian is dedicated to the life and writing of Robert E. Howard but there is a good deal of related material including these interesting opening thoughts that feel a little familiar.
"Too many of my waking hours are given over to thinking about the Hobbit films due in December of 2011 and December of 2012; no sooner is my attention directed elsewhere than the voluble and value-adding Guillermo del Toro is interviewed again and — sproing! – my thoughts ricochet back to the movies he’s about to make."
You can follow the link above for the whole text which also includes a lot of the classic Hobbit covers from around the world.
I have no choice but to believe in free will.
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 7 2008, 4:17am
Post #2 of 27
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"This whole post *is* just a selfish attempt to rip a beloved book out of small, innocent grasps"
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Tompkins makes as impressive a case as can be made for the full transformation of The Hobbit into something "higher, deeper, darker". He knows his Tolkien, and he knows what he likes: High Fantasy, with mammoth armies, soaring evil beings, and epic proportions for everything from the dwarves' forearms to the heroine's bustline. The fact that the latter is entirely missing from the text of The Hobbit should be his first clue that he is twisting the book too far in one direction.
The charm of The Hobbit is its intersection of bourgeois humility (Bilbo) and epic fantasy (everyone else). This is an even match, because the book is called The Hobbit, not The Hobbit and the Dwarves or The Hobbit and the Dragon. Bilbo is the hero; the story is about Bilbo. Secondly, Tompkins like so many others who read The Hobbit as an afterthought to The Lord of the Rings, is not satisfied with the fatherly narrator or the general childishness of the tone of the story. But as perceptive analysts have pointed out, The Hobbit is not what Tompkins wants it to be: a children's book that has somehow got out of hand. Rather, it is a children's book that truly understands a child's view of the world. Bilbo starts as a hobbit: a man who lives in a child's body with childish needs, but suffers from an adult's unwillingness to fantasize. By the end of the story, Bilbo has both grown up and grown down. He has matured into an adult - defined as a grown-up who understands the importance of fantasy. Every child longs for and dreads maturity, because children perceive that most grown-ups lose their interest in fantasy, which is one of the things that makes childhood bearable. The Hobbit reconciles this conflict for children, reassuring them that it is possible to grow up and still remain whole.
This is not the theme of The Lord of the Rings. It is its own theme. Tolkien himself in later years, long after his children had grown and seduced by the magic of the way that The Lord of the Rings seemed to complete the Silmarillion cycle, almost forgot that the connections between The Hobbit and LotR/Sil are not at heart consistent with his legendarium. The Hobbit is not about loss, but gain. Not tragedy, but comedy. Not Dwarves, Elves and Dragons - but a fussy, hungry, comfort-seeking Hobbit. I thank God that he had the sense to submit his tentative "rewrite" of The Hobbit to a reader (I wonder if it was Aunt Jane) who reminded him that The Hobbit, like a Leaf by Niggle, has a charm all its own. And had this advice not rung true with him, had it not awakened some small part of childishness still left in him after the writing of a massive epic romance, he certainly would have finished the rewrite that John Rateliff slobbers with TORnlike anticipation for, in the quote that Tompkins provides from The Return to Bag End.
Tompkins makes the most of his feeling that, like himself, the film audience has already seen The Lord of the Rings, and so they must be served more of the same stuff. I have heard this before, and more and more of it lately. Ironically, the early comments by fans about The Hobbit was that, because of the success of LotR, the studios would not be able to prevent Peter Jackson from making The Hobbit as it should be made, without any fake Hollywood changes and generic set pieces. I suggest that this is still true. Let The Hobbit be The Hobbit. A misplaced emphasis on the epic stuff, with massive tie-ins to the LotR cycle and vast prologues based on the LotR Appendices and "Quest of Erebor", as Tompkins suggests, will be just as fatal to the film's authenticity as would be the Hollywood-style addition of female dwarves and a love interest for Bilbo! If the film Hobbit is different from the LotR film cycle, so what? Do you really think that would destroy it at the box office, if it was a well-made and high-quality adaptation of this first-rate property? It could be a truly great film, because it will be based on a truly great story. Word of mouth alone would be, "It ain't Lord of the Rings - but it's terrific! Go see it!"
Oh well. Based on my sense of the fandom here on TORn, combined with Tompkins' well-argued piece, I have less and less hope for an independent, stand-alone Hobbit. My only remaining hope is that Mr. Del Toro, having read The Hobbit first and long before he ever got through LotR, will remember the difference, and honor this book that should stand alone, rather than become a bastardized doormat to some other masterpiece.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Dec 7 2008, 5:03am
Post #3 of 27
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Hall-of-fame post there Squire {NT}
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I have no choice but to believe in free will.
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 7 2008, 7:09am
Post #4 of 27
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Rather, it is a children's book that truly understands a child's view of the world. Bilbo starts as a hobbit: a man who lives in a child's body with childish needs, but suffers from an adult's unwillingness to fantasize. By the end of the story, Bilbo has both grown up and grown down. He has matured into an adult - defined as a grown-up who understands the importance of fantasy.
I read The Hobbit as an adult, after reading LOTR, and I have never been able to take to it; but your comments have helped me find the shape of the story at last.
I may have to read it again with this point of view in mind.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2008, 8:44am
Post #5 of 27
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The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Dec 7 2008, 8:46am)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Dec 7 2008, 12:50pm
Post #6 of 27
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How do you do it? Once again, you've help put things into perspective and eased my mind.
I was growing increasingly anxious as I read Tompkin's article, but I couldn't articulate what specifically was causing me concern... admittedly intimidated by his proficiency and knowledge. I started responding to MrCere's post a few times, but ended up just sitting here with my fingers on the keyboard home row... stalled. But you've hit my concern on the head for me, and I found my eyes (once again) beginning to burn with tears as you put our dear Bilbo (and Tolkien) back on his feet as THE purpose of the story. Not the dragon. Not the hype of a sequel/prequel (which all too often suffers from over-exaggeration of what's perceived as popular in the original). Not a film about war. Not a film about dwarves.
I'm so glad I've read (and will re-read) Mr. Tompkin's article, because it's probably going to be the mindset of too many people and it shows how mis-directed anticipation can be. So has Tompkins, while his knowledge of all things Tolkien is firmly established, fallen into the quagmire of filmdom? His interpretation of The Hobbit adapted to film is already Hollywoodized in his mind and expectations. Thankfully, your post is what I've copied/pasted/inserted into my copy of The Hobbit where I can revisit and enjoy the simple clarity of what I love about The Hobbit, LotR, and your most appreciated sensibilities.
Thank you... more than you can know.
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Dec 7 2008, 1:30pm
Post #7 of 27
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I agree. 
I'm so glad I read The Hobbit first. I can love the story for what it is, not what it portends for LOTR. I do have confidence that Jackson and Del Toro not only love The Hobbit as a stand-alone story, but they also understand that it should never be a "prequel" (shudder!).
I wonder if that's one of the motivations behind making two movies. There's the obvious motivation of money, but if Peter and Guillermo had just made The Hobbit, someone else would have come in and made the prequel movie that many commenters appear to think is necessary. By taking on both the movies allowed in the contract, they can make The Hobbit as it should be, and satisfy the market need for a prequel to LOTR (also serving as a bridge between the two) while retaining the integrity of Tolkien's story.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 7 2008, 1:33pm
Post #8 of 27
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It's Bilbo's story. It's Bilbo's adventure.
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Amen, squire.
I was starting to get a bit queasy, as Tompkins brought more and more of the Sil into The Hobbit! Yes, there's bits of material from other writings which could find their way in a movie adaptation - but they need to be properly included, complementing the material rather than distracting from it.
And you're quite right, the material is all about Bilbo. I want to see him: to see his flustering at Gandalf at the door, to see his reaction and bustling about with all those Dwarves, to hear them chanting in the dark of Bilbo's parlor as the romance sweeps him away - and then reality sets in again. I want to get creeped out as he riddles with Gollum. I want to find my heart racing as he confronts Smaug.
I want to go there and back again with a comfortable Hobbit as he discovers the maturity that comes from discomfort, yet still remains himself.
After reading GdT's comments about how they are writing the screenplay, I do have hope that he will do honor to the book. His task is formidable; let us pray, that he is guided.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Dec 7 2008, 4:28pm
Post #9 of 27
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For I, like everyone else, think that this is a wonderful post.
I also agree with entmaiden; it seems that this second film is to satisfy the market who wants more LOTR but will not "get it" with the Hobbit. Granted, I do not wish for a Narnia-like "Hobbit"... but there is something about Bilbo's childlike innocence that is quite endearing. The humor, too, is absolutely a wonderful part about the book.
My LJ
My art site
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Dec 9 2008, 3:29am
Post #11 of 27
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The squirenator strikes again!
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Hark, what light breaks upon the forest floor to reveal the little blue flower*.
It is the quest of the human spirit to attempt to grasp the sublime attached to the grand. Climb the mountain to the summit and catch the four winds, see the sunrise and sunset and the majesty of the subtle changing hues of the mountains to the horizon adored with the rainbow with the chance thunderstorm.
But then one day unbeknowst from ones wanderings, in the midst of the forest, revealed within a moted shaft of light upon the moss, there appears a little flower. It's simple humble beauty takes your heart and you weep. In the end one realizes that the sublime and the profound is found in the small, simple and the humble.
Squire is right. I thank him for returning me to my senses to realize that the foundation of it all, from all that is eventually revealed through the grand scope of time, is the beauty of a single humble spirit by the name of Bilbo.
Yes, this is what this story is about, Bilbo Baggins of the shire:).
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forget-me-not
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu (From the website: 'The realm of Manwe')
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silneldor
Gondolin
Dec 9 2008, 3:35am
Post #12 of 27
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for a thought provoking thread. And also for finally showing up after a long 'walk-about' .
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu (From the website: 'The realm of Manwe')
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Laitholiel_the_SeaElf
Menegroth
Dec 9 2008, 5:57am
Post #13 of 27
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The words "fantasy" and "epic" do not have to be inextricably tied together.
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Like everyone else, I loved squire's reply on the topic.
My heart never really belonged to The Hobbit in the way that it belonged to Tolkien's other work. I read it prior to LOTR in about 9th grade and I got through it alright, but it wasn't my cup of tea. It actually put me off reading LOTR for a while.
Now, of course, being so in love with all things Middle Earth, I have a new appreciation for the story and am looking forward to getting lost in that world again when the movies are released. It will never be a favorite, but they can't *all* change your life. Even I know that it is supposed to be a different experience and will actually be put off if it's too LOTR. We already have over 10 hours of epic, it is quite alright if we try something with a different tone.
Captain Jack: Who has a sonic screwdriver?
The Doctor: I do!
Captain Jack: Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks, "Woo, this could be a little more sonic."?
The Doctor: What, you've never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?
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Jazmine
Dor-Lomin
Dec 9 2008, 12:50pm
Post #14 of 27
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I wholeheartedley agree. I absolutely hate hearing The Hobbit movie called the "Lord of the Rings prequel". To me, it is something entirely different. And that's no bad thing.
*Jazminatar the Brown*
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Dec 9 2008, 3:57pm
Post #15 of 27
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I concur with all you have to say, though I still have hope. I see The Hobbit as a fairytale growing into epic fantasy. It starts out as a comic children's walk-about and grows into a tragic story about greed, corruption of the spirit and war. (Incidentally It provided a the launchpad for The Lord of the Rings.) I am sure GDT can see this clearly. Listening closely to him and looking at his volume of work I see his sensitivity to the issues involved. He will deliver the Hobbit as the Hobbit. There is enough in the story to satisfy both camps. This is why I love it so much.
Kangi Ska
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Dec 9 2008, 4:08pm
Post #16 of 27
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I was seeing lots of praise for this post but didn't have time to open it up and read it. I'm glad I found the time. I think you've made some great points and I will agree with your hopes for what the upcoming movie will bring. You've helped put a few things in perspective for me and I'm thankful for that.
I know I hear people wanting Shore to follow right up on all he's created for LOTR. He might do that and I might be happy. But I'm also hoping he understands the difference between the two works and lets himself start fresh. I think they will be compatible because I think Shore's bright enough and talented enough not to let them 'clash'. But I think something fresh could be just as brilliant, if not more, than something that meshes more obviously with LOTR's score.
LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
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Madmartigan
Registered User
Dec 9 2008, 5:59pm
Post #18 of 27
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Movies and books are never the same
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I think Del Toro was brought in to give it a different perspective, almost child like. Del Toro has stated that The Hobbit is the tale he has love for, not LOTR. He read it as a boy and will likely bring a boyish enthusiasm to the final product. I expect that film one will be a bit more innocent, ending with the death of Smaug. Film two will have the "battle of five armies" and have will likely evolve into a tone that is similar to LOTR. No matter what they do, the book is still the book. Given what was done with the LOTR trilogy I think we should cut some slack to PJ and GDT until we see what they give us. Movies are different animals. General audiences want a contuniation of LOTR, but hardcore fans want an authentic version of the book. I think making it into two films can give us both.
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Jettorex
Menegroth
Dec 9 2008, 8:51pm
Post #19 of 27
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good talk!
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Glaurung63
Menegroth
Dec 10 2008, 12:19am
Post #20 of 27
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I agree that The Hobbit is a stand alone book....I read it first, so had no idea of the true nature of the Ring until I read LOTR....and that is the connection....the One Ring....Bilbo finds it and uses it in innocence....but Gollum shows us the nature of its corrupting ways....and other examples of greed, Smaug and the desire for gold or power, tie the story to LOTR.
But The Hobbit is Bilbo's coming of age story....hobbits were still young in their 30's and Bilbo's story is of him becoming the Hobbit....from being a hobbit....I want that story to be central, but the themes of greed and lust for power, the adult themes Bilbo encounters on his quest, these are central to the whole story arc between The Hobbit and LOTR....so if I can have my coming of age story with my morality tale (cake and eat it) I think I'll be satisfied with the wonderful cinematic creation by all the geniuses down there in NZ!
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Dave
Registered User
Dec 12 2008, 9:21pm
Post #21 of 27
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I am definitely in the minority on this but here's my opinion nevertheless: the greatest tragedy of the Tolkien legendarium is that he didn't have a laptop computer. Why? Because apart from his fans endlessly slavering over the works that were completed in the state in which they ended up, there is great sadness in Tolkien's letters because he never got to finish his first and last love. We all know what that was. The frustration, the palpable draining away of his mental and physical abilities with each passing year must have been a torture because he lacked the modern organizational tools with which to complete the Silmarillion, including the rewrite of the Sun, stars and moon's creation, the empowering of Morgoth etc. Yes, he was no fan of "modern" technology. But if a time traveler could've handed him a Mac, what would we have in our hands today? A longer, richer LOTR ("my only problem with LOTR is that it's not long enough"--JRRT); a Silmarillion that would've dwarfed LOTR in scope, grandeur, emotion and depth of philosophic thought, becoming perhaps the greatest work of English literature, making the former shine even that much greater. And (and this is my last point) a completely rewritten or perhaps an additional adult version of the Hobbit, to enrich the world with the fully realized and shining genius of his mind--and not carry it to the grave as a dream unfulfilled.
Now don't get me wrong--the Hobbit is a fantastic book. But it's done. It's finished. It's been read by millions a billion times. And it is probably not what Tolkien really wanted in the end before his creative powers and endurance failed him. A younger man would've taken the negative criticism of his abandoned rewrite and plunged forward with even better material--because that's what made Tolkien a literary giant--he constantly reworked and improved the manifestations of his dreams.
And so, we have a different medium here--film--and a once in a lifetime opportunity with brilliant film makers to express something that was definitely on Tolkien's mind towards the end of his life. As Tompkins so aptly puts it, the guts of the unrealized Hobbit are all there for the shooting, in the LOTR appendices, and in Chis Tolkien's other books---all suggested anyway even if the rights to the Silmarillion are not available. Like I said, the Hobbit--the original book--has already been here for decades. But JRRT is gone forever. The remnants of his vision and passion still remain, unrealized, but potentially re-animated---like Beren and Luthien--in a different format that may live on alongside the old children's book as a testament to what might have been.
And for those who say "but it won't be The Hobbit!"...so what? The film trilogy has major changes from the books yet creates that world so profoundly that very few can refrain from calling them masterpieces. When will we ever get a duo like Jackson and del Toro again?
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Glaurung63
Menegroth
Dec 12 2008, 11:08pm
Post #22 of 27
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Although I think Tolkien would still have enjoyed a good pipe smoke over learning how to use a Mac or PC, he may have enjoyed the editing abilities of Word and such...
It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on this particular modern technology and how it helps people communicate and create, seeing as how it would help him write....would he choose to use it?
I am envisioning a commercial with the "Mac and PC dudes", and Tolkien....debating computers vs. pen and paper....lol....
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 12 2008, 11:19pm
Post #23 of 27
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Thanks for joining the conversation. Nice comments, even though I disagree strongly. But squire has already said most of what I would say, and better, so I'll just add a couple brief remarks.
("my only problem with LOTR is that it's not long enough"--JRRT)
You're paraphrasing the foreword to the second edition of LotR, where Tolkien said that being "too short" was the only flaw that he would name, but not the only one that he saw.
Also, I wonder if it is so clear that Tolkien died still wanting to rewrite The Hobbit for adults, or if his failure to do so was primarily a function of age: there are many unfinished works that the "younger Tolkien" never finished.
Finally, I'm not sure you are in the minority here -- or if you are, it represents a recent shift in TORN opinion, which long favored making The Hobbit more like LotR.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 8-15 for "The Steward and the King".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 13 2008, 8:23pm
Post #24 of 27
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We do know, that he would be delighted with certain features of word-processing programs! From Letter #257 to Christopher Bretherton, 16 July 1964:
"Also I like typewriters; and my dream is of suddenly finding myself rich enough to have an electric typewriter built to my specifications, to type the Fëanorian script..."
My Word fonts include two kinds of Cirth and seven styles of Tengwar - and there's lots more out there! You'd hardly be able to get Tolkien away from his computer... !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Dec 16 2008, 8:38am
Post #25 of 27
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I just find it wise to be quiet more often.
I have no choice but to believe in free will.
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
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