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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 12:37am
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The Field of Cormallen #3: The End of All Things
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The Shadow that was Sauron has blown away in the wind, and Gandalf asks Gwaihir and company to bear him once more to bear him on a rescue journey:
"The North Wind blows, but we shall outfly it," said Gwaihir. And he lifted up Gandalf and sped away south, and with him went Landroval, and Meneldor young and swift.
1. Why are only two Eagles accompanying Gwaihir? Does Gandalf know only two will be needed? Does he know Gollum is not there to be rescued?
It is just interesting to see what Hammond & Scull (in LOTR Companion) note about the shadow of Sauron blowing away in the wind:
"Hugh Brogan, in 'Tolkien's Great War', Children and Their Books: A Celebration of the Work of Iona and Peter Opie (1989), compares Tolkien's description of the shadow of Sauron with that of a First World War shell-burst as written by Siegfried Sassoon in Memoirs of a Fox-hunting Man: 'Against the clear morning sky a cloud of dark smoke expands and drifts away. Slowly its dingy wrestling vapours take the form of a hooded giant with clumsy expostulating arms. Then, with a gradual gesture of acquiescence, it lolls sideways, falling over into the attitude of a swimmer on his side. And so it dissolves into nothingness.' Brogan comments: 'The similarities between these passages cannot be coincidental....It is possible that Tolkien used Sassoon's description as a model, but it is surely much likelier that he, as well as Sassoon, could remember what a shell-burst looked like, and exploit it for literary purposes'".
"I am glad that you are here with me," said Frodo. "Here at the end of all things, Sam." But Sam is not quite ready to abandon hope; he wants to get Frodo out a little bit away from the fire, because he's not ready to "give up yet".
"Yes, I am with you, Master," said Sam, laying Frodo's wounded hand gently to his breast. "And you're with me. And the journey's finished. But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."
"Maybe not, Sam," said Frodo; "but it's like things are in the world. Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall, and there is no escape."
"Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place here, from this Crack of Doom, if that's its name. Now couldn't we? Come, Mr. Frodo, let's go down the path at any rate!"
2) I'm struck by Frodo's readiness to die, here. He seems past despair and simply resigned to death. Comments on how Sam is helping Frodo, at this point? Why do you think Tolkien sent two to Mt. Doom, and not just one?
The two hobbits move away as best they can from the belching fire and smoke and ash, and settle on a little hill from which they can go no farther, where they stand, hand in hand. Sam also seems to accept the fact that his part in the story is done, and wonders how it will "go on after our part".
And so it was that Gwaihir saw them with his keen far-seeing eyes, as down the wild wind he came, and daring the great peril of the skies he circled in the air: two small dark figures, forlorn, hand in hand upon a little hill, while the world shook under them, and gasped, and rivers of fire drew near. And even as he espied them and came swooping down, he saw them fall, worn out, or choked with fumes and heat, or stricken down by despair at last, hiding their eyes from death.
Side by side they lay; and down swept Gwaihir, and down came Landroval and Meneldor the swift; and in a dream, not knowing what fate had befallen them, the wanderers were lifted up and borne far away out of the darkness and the fire.
These are my favorite words in all of LOTR. I usually close the book, at this point, and leave it closed for a bit. It wasn't until many years later, when I read On Fairy-stories (OFS) for the first time, that I recognized this passage as the "joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief", and caught a glimpse or glimmer or hint of the reason for the tears that prick my eyelids when I know that Frodo and Sam have been lifted up out of the darkness and the fire.
3) It is interesting to be discussing OFS and this chapter of LOTR at the same time, and I hate to duplicate any questions or discussions. I would have asked about eucatastrophe, and the consolation of happy endings in Fairy-tales, but that discussion is already taking place on the board! So I'll just ask if anyone has a comment on this part of LOTR, and if you also find it moving.
And if you have a glimmer of why--or why not.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 2 2008, 4:47am
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we all have sorrow but if we are wise...
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Why are only two Eagles accompanying Gwaihir? Does Gandalf know only two will be needed? Does he know Gollum is not there to be rescued?
Well now, there are three Eagles and I suppose if need be Gwaihir could handle both Gandalf as well as a Hobbit. We're not told in the story which Eagles had passengers, eh? Was the 3rd just an extra (lookout, set of eyes, wings). The question of the eagles came up during September in a LotR thread and being heavily under the film influence I assumed that Gwaihir took Frodo, another Eagle took Sam, and the 3rd -no one. But Tolkien did not specify this, did he? I don' think Gandalf was certain about who he was going to rescue, but he hoped...
I'm struck by Frodo's readiness to die, here. He seems past despair and simply resigned to death. Comments on how Sam is helping Frodo, at this point? Why do you think Tolkien sent two to Mt. Doom, and not just one?
Lean on me, when you're not strong
and I'll be your friend
I'll help you carry on...
Bill Withers, 1972
It is interesting to be discussing OFS and this chapter of LOTR at the same time, and I hate to duplicate any questions or discussions. I would have asked about eucatastrophe, and the consolation of happy endings in Fairy-tales, but that discussion is already taking place on the board! So I'll just ask if anyone has a comment on this part of LOTR, and if you also find it moving.
Whew! Moving...it's such a relief! After all *we've" been through -especially after Tolkien's awesome build to the climax in Mount Doom. Now they are being brought back or being (re)born.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 2 2008, 5:58am
Post #3 of 27
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that Gandalf does not expect Gollum to be alive even if he did ultimately repent in the end. Gollum has, after all, been kept alive for centuries beyond his normal life expectancy by the power of the Ring - if it is destroyed, then yes, he will turn to dust.
However, I also agree: there are three eagles, not two, and I suspect Gandalf is indeed planning on rescuing all three of them, if he can.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 2 2008, 7:00am
Post #4 of 27
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Three eagles, three passengers: Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam.
Only the film's sloppy insistence on Gandalf personally "rescuing" Frodo, leaving the 3rd eagle with nothing to do, has raised in countless sentimental hearts the idea that Gandalf hoped to rescue poor little Gollum. But there's nothing to support that in the book. And we're talking the book here.
Three eagles, three passengers: Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam.
"Gollum's dead, you twit."
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 8:50am
Post #5 of 27
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The book's Gandalf is much more hard-hearted and clear-sighted that the movie version. He foresaw what Gollum's role was likely to be at the end, I think, although as ever he keeps the details under his hat. There's a telling line in the book that is missing from the film - when Gandalf tells Frodo that Bilbo sparing Gollum's life "may rule the fate of many", he goes on, "...yours not least." A pretty clear hint, I always think - but missing from the film.
(Not many people even think the third Eagle in the film was meant for Gollum anyway, I don't think. It certainly never occurred to me. And I can't help thinking that Gollum would have been a little de trop in the death scene on the rock!)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Dec 2 2008, 8:54am)
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 11:15am
Post #6 of 27
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I agree that Gandalf never expects to pick up Gollum. I confess I've never noticed which eagle picks up which hobbit in the movie.
Must get a bigger TV set.
LOL
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 11:19am
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Gandalf does not expect Gollum to be alive even if he did ultimately repent in the end. Gollum has, after all, been kept alive for centuries beyond his normal life expectancy by the power of the Ring - if it is destroyed, then yes, he will turn to dust.
Maybe not literally "to dust", but I can see that Gandalf would expect that if Gollum was still alive to be on the scene when the Ring went down, Gollum would not survive that.
And so, I then don't agree that there are three eagles in order to pick up the three hobbits: there is one for Gandalf to ride, and one each to pick up Frodo and Sam. And Gollum is just either not even thought of, or assumed to be dead.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 11:36am
Post #8 of 27
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we know that there's not a tomorrow (or so we think)
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Lean on me, when you're not strong
and I'll be your friend
I'll help you carry on...
Although we all see different things when we read a fictional scene with interacting characters, I see Sam using some very specific skills here with Frodo: he talks like a parent, here...or a nurse or rescue worker coping with someone who must be moved out of one situation into another for their own benefit or protection. Sam is no longer acting as a servant, although it's subtle. He's totally "in charge" of Frodo, at this point. He isn't taking any orders or directions from Frodo, simply calmly talking him step by step out of one place into another. And maintaining calm in the face of panic by his words and demeanor.
Maybe a better question to ask (rather than why Tolkien sent two to Mt. Doom instead of just one) is why Tolkien sent a servant and master, rather than two equal friends?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 2 2008, 3:55pm
Post #9 of 27
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A few thoughts, some to the point
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1. Why are only two Eagles accompanying Gwaihir? Does Gandalf know only two will be needed? Does he know Gollum is not there to be rescued?
I don't think for Gollum. If anything, once Gwaihir has to race to Mt. Doom before the Nazgul get there, he might expect a battle.
Btw, did you ever notice that the eagles didn't (get there before the Nazgul)? Why can't the good guys ever make good one boast?
2) I'm struck by Frodo's readiness to die, here. He seems past despair and simply resigned to death. Comments on how Sam is helping Frodo, at this point? Why do you think Tolkien sent two to Mt. Doom, and not just one?
One would never get there.
But yes, Frodo is resigned to death. Urged by Sam, he tries to live a couple of years longer - but it's useless; and he goes with the Three.
3) It is interesting to be discussing OFS and this chapter of LOTR at the same time, and I hate to duplicate any questions or discussions. I would have asked about eucatastrophe, and the consolation of happy endings in Fairy-tales, but that discussion is already taking place on the board! So I'll just ask if anyone has a comment on this part of LOTR, and if you also find it moving.
I like the 'hiding their eyes from death'. Even Sam finally guves up.
And yes, we needed to get to the stage before the eucatastrophe could be complete.
"It is a long way, is it not, from Bree, where you did not like the look of me?" - Aragorn
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 2 2008, 3:57pm
Post #10 of 27
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1. Why are only two Eagles accompanying Gwaihir? Does Gandalf know only two will be needed? Does he know Gollum is not there to be rescued?
I think the simplest answer is Gollum's own prediction of what will happen to him if the Ring is unmade. "'And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.'" I think Gandalf knew that if the Ring was unmade, Gollum would be beyond rescue. Bilbo did not die because he was not quite beyond the lifespan of a hobbit, although he did age dramatically. The Nazgul winked out. Gollum would have turned to dust.
2) I'm struck by Frodo's readiness to die, here. He seems past despair and simply resigned to death. Comments on how Sam is helping Frodo, at this point? Why do you think Tolkien sent two to Mt. Doom, and not just one?
Yes, Frodo long ago despaired, but kept on going in a fatalistic way. He never expected to return, and still doesn't. Sam never gave up hope of rescue, despite all the evidence against it. Sam did come close to giving up hope when he thought Frodo was dead, but as long as Frodo was alive, that kept Sam going as well. That's why, in an early draft, Gandalf named Frodo Bronwe athan Harthad, Endurance beyond Hope, and named Sam Harthad Uluithiad, Hope Unquenchable. We see a similar distinction between Merry and Pippin, I judge, with Merry more naturally somber, and Pippin more naturally optimistic.
I'm not sure why Tolkien chose to send two to Mount Doom, but I'm glad he did. It gave him a chance to develop a beautiful relationship between Frodo and Sam. Also, as his suffering transformed Frodo, Sam took over Frodo's role as protagonist; as Frodo grew more distant, Sam maintained the hobbit relationship with the reader. The reader travels to the Hill of Seeing with Frodo, travels to Cirith Ungol with Sam and Frodo, but travels to Mount Doom with Sam.
3) It is interesting to be discussing OFS and this chapter of LOTR at the same time, and I hate to duplicate any questions or discussions. I would have asked about eucatastrophe, and the consolation of happy endings in Fairy-tales, but that discussion is already taking place on the board! So I'll just ask if anyone has a comment on this part of LOTR, and if you also find it moving.
Hmm, I wonder if NEB planned the schedule this way. I wouldn't put it past him.
One interesting thing about eucatastrophe in LotR is that this is not the end of the book -- it's not even close! Thus Tolkien departs from the blueprint he laid out in "On Fairy-stories" by adding a long, bittersweet dénouement, rather than a quick dénouement such as we see in The Hobbit, or the even quicker "happily ever after" ending Tolkien praises in "On Fairy-stories."
Also, it's not completely unexpected. After all, ever since the Prologue Tolkien has been dropping hints that the quest will succeed and that the hobbits will survive. And the Eagles have come to the rescue twice before in LotR and twice before in The Hobbit, and Pippin has already reminded the reader of the role the Eagles played in The Hobbit.
True, Tolkien deliberately chose not to explain how and why the Eagles appeared at the Black Gates. So there's a hint that perhaps a Higher Power was involved. But those hints are all over LotR as well. Gandalf is constantly dropping such hints, and Gandalf's resurrection is more than just a hint -- it's direct evidence. It's evidence Frodo and Sam don't have, but the reader does -- so although Frodo and Sam may despair or come close to it, I'm not convinced that the readers ever really despair.
Furthermore, the Eagles rescue the heroes after the Ring has been unmade, not before. So because the Eagles are not completely unexpected, and because they do not personally toss the Ring into the fire, their appearance is not deus ex machina in the worst sense, i.e. a cheat by an inept author. But it is deus ex machina reimagined as eucatastrophe, a word Tolkien coined. In one of his letters Tolkien even calls the Eagles a "dangerous 'machine'" which he used "sparingly." Like the Greek machines of old, the Eagles swoop out of the air to rescue the heroes. But unlike the worst kind of deus ex machina, the Eagles are a part of Tolkien's Secondary World, in hindsight we can see that this rescue has been foreshadowed, and they only rescue Frodo and Sam after the Ring has been unmade.
Does this passage move me? Sure it does. But another passage moves me more -- the one at the Grey Havens. The genius of LotR is that the heroes don't just live happily ever after in the Shire -- first Frodo must say good-bye to Sam. It's like the end of Casablanca, when Rick sends Ilsa away. It defies expectations -- and exceeds them.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 4:40pm
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Why did Tolkien choose the servant to outshine Frodo's peers? When Tolkien went to war, the British still divvied up rank based on the class system; he became an officer because that was his station in life. He might have been poor, but he still came of good pedigree. However, Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that WWI brought him face-to-face with the potential courage and nobility of the lower class, lower ranking men that he led, and whom he ultimately depended on to get him out alive when he fell sick. He basically said that he saw, again and again, the small step in and accomplish what their supposed betters could not. I don't quite remember for sure, but I think that he actually said that he wanted to honor such men through Sam.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 4:54pm
Post #12 of 27
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Sending a servant and a master
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is probably one of the most crucial plot decisions that Tolkien came up with. I believe that it was soon after the creation of Sam that Tolkien really got going with the story, which before that had been advancing fitfully and getting stuck.
For me, the importance of this unequal relationship is that it allows Frodo to be the moral leader of the Quest from start to finish, while allowing Sam to develop his own courage and insight as well (a development that owes much to the moral leadership of Frodo, so that even when Frodo is out of it, his legacy - not just his mercy to Gollum, but also his moral education of Sam - lives on and saves the Quest).
With two friends on an equal footing, it would have been hard to convince us of the ever-weakening Frodo's continuing importance. But as it is, it's made very clear that only Frodo can bear the burden of the Ring - Sam realises this as he tries to take up the burden himself: "I can't help it....I can't be their Ring-bearer. Not without Mr Frodo." Sam can move mountains out of love for Frodo. But only Frodo can do the more austere and difficult task, which must be done out of faith alone.
Sam is no longer acting as a servant, although it's subtle. He's totally "in charge" of Frodo, at this point. He isn't taking any orders or directions from Frodo, simply calmly talking him step by step out of one place into another.
I don't think Sam's take-charge behaviour is particularly different in this scene than it has been throughout. Right from his eavesdropping at Bag End, he's been following his own heart in his decisions for Frodo's welfare. In fact, on one reading I noticed that there is hardly a single example of Frodo actually giving Sam an order. One of the few I came up with is when he tells Sam to untie the rope after Gollum swears his oath. Frodo's main need with Sam is to prevent him from protecting him too much out of an excess of zeal. But that adds another level of nobility to Frodo's character - all he would have had to do is say nothing (like Henry II and the "turbulent priest") and he could have been rid of Gollum without needing to incriminate himself at all. Instead he deliberately puts himself in harm's way by refusing to allow Sam to kill on his behalf. He saves Sam's soul as well as his own.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 2 2008, 5:38pm
Post #13 of 27
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It's about time!
As for the conclusion of "On Fairy-stories" schedule coinciding with this part of LotR, that was unplanned.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 1-7 for "The Field of Cormallen".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 2 2008, 7:49pm
Post #14 of 27
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and long on upperclass masters, at least among the good characters with substantial speaking parts. The evil characters, on the other hand, are mostly slaves and servants, and the orcs speak in lower-class dialects.
Sam both redeems and exemplifies Tolkien's classism. On the one hand Sam has a central role in the story, rivaling even Frodo's. On the other hand Tolkien depicts Sam as somewhat simple-minded and obedient, a stereotypical "good servant" as portrayed by nonservant authors.
An author who had been a servant might have a different take on Sam. Commissioned officers of World War I, including Tolkien, developed an affection for batmen who served them, but I wonder what the batmen thought of the commissioned officers. After all, it was very much in the batman's interest to make sure his officer developed an affection for him.
Sam is rewarded for his good service by becoming Frodo's heir and, through his daughter, founding a new aristocratic and fair-complexioned family, the Fairbairns of Tower Hills. Tolkien even gives Sam a golden-haired sister, Marigold, to show that there was a hidden strain of Fallohide blood in Sam's family. Galadriel's magical dirt apparently brings out this fair complexion and golden hair in Sam's family and other families.
Americans, who have a long history of racism, tend to worry that Tolkien was racist, but I think Englishmen, who have a much longer history of classism, might be more concerned that Tolkien was classist or a snob. If LotR were written today, perhaps Sam and Frodo would have been friends, or perhaps the Ringbearer would have been the servant, not the master.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 2 2008, 8:07pm
Post #15 of 27
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“What do I have to be grateful for, Captain? Your tolerance? You think that just because you and Colonel Brandt are more enlightened than most officers that I hate you any less. I hate all officers.”
-Sergeant Steiner, "Cross of Iron" (1977)
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 2 2008, 8:40pm
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These are my favorite words in all of LOTR. I usually close the book, at this point, and leave it closed for a bit. It wasn't until many years later, when I read On Fairy-stories (OFS) for the first time, that I recognized this passage as the "joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief", and caught a glimpse or glimmer or hint of the reason for the tears that prick my eyelids when I know that Frodo and Sam have been lifted up out of the darkness and the fire.
3) It is interesting to be discussing OFS and this chapter of LOTR at the same time, and I hate to duplicate any questions or discussions. I would have asked about eucatastrophe, and the consolation of happy endings in Fairy-tales, but that discussion is already taking place on the board! So I'll just ask if anyone has a comment on this part of LOTR, and if you also find it moving.
And if you have a glimmer of why--or why not.
a.s.
Your words reminded me of the time a few years ago when I read LotR in Spanish, which gave it a freshness after all the readings that had come before. I was teaching classes at a campus a mile and a half from my house, so I was walking to work. I read during my walks that summer, and I clearly remember walking along reading that part and weeping, and some people pulled up alongside me to ask me for directions. I had to pull myself together in a hurry, and I don't think I was very coherent. For some reason, maybe because I had to take it so slow, I found the Spanish reading to be especially moving.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Dec 2 2008, 8:41pm)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 2 2008, 8:48pm
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A "chance meeting", as they say in Middle Earth.
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As for the conclusion of "On Fairy-stories" schedule coinciding with this part of LotR, that was unplanned.
There are no coincidences ;-)
And let my add my welcome to yours: Welcome to Valinor, Curious!
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 2 2008, 9:36pm
Post #18 of 27
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"If LotR were written today...
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...perhaps Sam and Frodo would have been friends..."
That's pretty much where Peter Jackson took the relationship, I guess.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Vaemyr Arandur
Registered User
Dec 2 2008, 9:44pm
Post #19 of 27
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While we're at it,
I find Gandalf very respectful of the authority of kings (Aragorn, Theoden) or their equivalent (Denethor to a degree, and Gwaihir certainly). Here, I feel that Gandalf would not have presumed to direct Gwaihir with regard to how many or whom should be ordered to accomplish mission.
Three makes sense from Gwaihir's perspective. Two eagles (four sets of talons) could carry two hobbits and a gollum [if necessary] leaving one "wingman" talons free for aerial combat.
The army of the dead arrives
Heimdal blows his horn
Calling Gods out to die
Before the world can be reborn -- Amon Amarth
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Elros
Ossiriand
Dec 3 2008, 12:01am
Post #22 of 27
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With all the talk about why Tolkien sent 2 heroes into Mordor and why there were 3 Eagles, how about this one. Why did Gandalf need to accompany the Eagles at all? Surely, Gwaihir can spot the hobbits without Gandalf's help. Frodo and Sam would recognize the Eagles as friends rather than enemies without Gandalf perched atop. Earlier in the story, Gwaihir could only bear Gandalf so far, but I don't recall if this was due to being a burden or if Gwaihir had some other errand. (I've only read the books a few times, so things like this don't always stick in my brain yet. ) Is Gandalf reverting back to his Hobbit ways where he shows up just in time to take credit?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 3 2008, 12:19am
Post #23 of 27
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Eagles provide good transportation, but not medical attention. Gandalf knew that even if the hobbits had survived, they wouldn't be in good shape. And sure enough, he sees them pass out even as he zooms to the rescue. We have no account of what Gandalf did when he scooped him up, because of the POV characters' unconsciousness, but we can pretty much figure that they would have needed immediate first aid that couldn't have waited for transport. Frodo had lost a lot of blood, both of them had inhaled way too much vaporized sulfuric acid, they suffered malnutrition, exhaustion, and severe dehydration, and Frodo additionally suffered a dramatic degree of soul-loss which would have made other healings difficult-to-futile if not addressed swiftly, not to mention lingering poisoning and his chronic morgul-knife issues.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 3 2008, 1:58am
Post #24 of 27
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If they counted number of words instead of number of posts
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you'd have been there long before me ;-)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Elros
Ossiriand
Dec 3 2008, 3:04am
Post #25 of 27
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That's what I was thinking as well
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The only reason I wasn't certain that Gandalf was there to heal Frodo and Sam was the fact he neglected to mention it to Frodo and Sam upon their awakening, as he did in a nearly identical scene in Rivendell after Frodo's flight from the Nazgul. It struck me as something Tolkien wouldn't neglect, but perhaps it was so obvious he felt it needed no mention. Thanks Dreamdeer.
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