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Elenedhel
Ossiriand
Nov 24 2008, 10:35pm
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Mount Doom I-- Lightening the Load
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Hello Everybody!
My name is Elenedhel, and I'm very excited (and nervous!) to be leading this weeks discussion of Mount Doom. Thanks to sador for an excellent discussion last week!
I'm going to be posting questions four times this week, with about eight questions per post. Then we'll wrap things up on Friday with an Open Discussion. I'm pretty busy, so I may not participate much in the actual discussions, but I'll drop in occasionally to see what you all have come up with.
When we join Frodo and Sam at the beginning of the chapter, they have just managed to escape from a troop of orcs. The next morning, they get their first glimpse of Orodruin, aka Mount Doom:
"Smokes were pouring from it, and while those that rose into the upper air trailed away eastward, great rolling clouds floated down its sides and spread over the land."
I have attached three pictures of Mount Doom. The first is a still from the movie. The other two are paintings by John Howe and Jeremy Bennett, respectively. I really hope they show up, but if not, I'll figure something out. 
1. Which picture do you think best fits the description above?
2. What do you find lacking in the others?
Sam contemplates the distance and difficulty of the journey towards the mountain.
3. What do you think Sam means when he says, "That'll take a week if it takes a day, with Mr. Frodo as he is"?
Frodo and Sam begin to crawl towards their destination through crevices in the Gorgoroth. Soon, however, Frodo tires, and Sam decides to chance the road.
4. Why does the narrative say that Sam is "taking a far greater risk than he [knows]"? Sam knows that they could easily be spotted by Sauron or the Nazgul. Is the narrative implying that he has forgotten about Gollum? Any ideas?
They meet nothing on the road, and the next day the hobbits continue on. Unfortunately, the food and especially the water are running very low. Sam suggests that they throw away anything they won't later need in order to get rid of any extra weight.
5. Why do you think Frodo makes a decision to "bear no weapon, foul or fair"?
Sam knows that he must throw away his pots and pans, but hates to part with them, if only because of the memories.
6. Have any of you ever had a similar experience? I know I have.
Frodo goes on to make a statement to Sam that is worth contemplating:
"I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."
7. What do these few sentences mean to you?
The two hobbits carry on, and Sam notices something rather interesting:
"That day it seemed to Sam that his master had found some new strength, more than could be explained by the small lightening of the load that he had to carry."
8. What do you think is giving Frodo his extra strength?
Not too many terribly exciting questions today, but I hope you'll all have fun anyway. 
"Though you should find all barren and laid waste, there will be few gardens in Middle-earth that will bloom like your garden, if you sprinkle this earth there. Then you may remember Galadriel, and catch a glimpse far off of Lorien, that you have seen only in our winter. For our spring and summer are gone by, and they will never be seen on earth again save in memory."
-Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 7:03am
Post #2 of 30
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Thanks for leading this week -- your first post looks good!
I only have time to tackle one aspect of your first question, concerning the three images of the Mountain. None of them match the first description of Mount Doom in this chapter --nor were they necessarily meant to-- and what immediately makes them "wrong" is the distance: all three have the mountain too close to the viewer. Frodo and Sam are about 50 miles away from Mount Doom, which rises 4,500 from the Plateau of Gorgoroth. By comparison, here is an image of 5,200-foot-tall Mount Katahdin seen from 50 miles away. That picture from Maine is a bit hazy, but Tolkien's description that you quote includes both smoke and "great rolling clouds". Howe's painting shows a scene from a few days later, after the hobbits turn south from the road on their final leg. The film image is Orodruin's summit as seen from its very slopes, as when the hobbits complete their quest. And Bennett's picture is an aerial shot of the mountain, maybe as seen by Gandalf and the Eagles.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 24-30 for "Mount Doom".
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And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 4:09pm
Post #3 of 30
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Could they really have seen Mount Doom?
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The mountain is hard to see in the picture in your link, and that's a sunny day, if a bit hazy. Mount Doom is apparently filled with smoke and dust, so much so that the overhang blocks out the sunlight, so how realistic is it to suppose that they could see Mount Doom, let alone Barad-dur, from a distance of fifty miles through the dark and the dust? And it's not as if flowing or spurting lava is lighting up the scene; Mount Doom is belching smoke and ash, not lava, at least not at the moment.
Nor do we hear anything about ash falling from the sky, as I would think it would in such an eruption. And then there's the way the darkness spreads in all directions from the volcano, instead of in the direction of the wind. The whole scene borders on being artificial -- but then the implication is that the volcano's eruption is artificial, a device of Sauron's instead of a natural eruption. Somehow the ash goes up and spreads in all directions to the borders of Mordor, but doesn't come down. And somehow, despite the darkness and ash, the hobbits can see or sense both Mount Doom and Barad-dur.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 5:01pm
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It must be a clear day, for Mordor.
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It seems to be clear overhead ("a grey light came again, for in the high regions the West Wind still blew") and the "great rolling clouds [that] floated down [Mount Doom's] sides and spread over the land" needn't spread for 50 miles. I think it's just believeable that the hobbits could see the mountain, as a partially obscured, distant cone across the relatively clear air of the plateau: more defined but smaller than Katahdin in the picture I found.
Alternatively, perhaps the hobbits are being shown a vision of Mount Doom.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 24-30 for "Mount Doom".
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And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 6:25pm
Post #5 of 30
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1. Which picture do you think best fits the description above?
2. What do you find lacking in the others?
I suppose the movie still comes closest to the book description, with smoke rising high but also rolling down the side of the mountain, but the movie still manages that effect by clearing off one side of the volcano and lighting the scene with erupting lava, which is not mentioned in the book. Jeremy Bennett does something similar to the movie still, although the smoke does not really roll down the side of the mountain. John Howe has the smoke rise straight up and then seemingly hover like claws over the heads of the hobbits. That's not how it is described in the book.
3. What do you think Sam means when he says, "That'll take a week if it takes a day, with Mr. Frodo as he is"?
It is more likely to take a week than a day to go 50 miles. (Note, however, that it isn't really 50 miles, because Sam overestimates the size of Mount Doom.)
4. Why does the narrative say that Sam is "taking a far greater risk than he [knows]"? Sam knows that they could easily be spotted by Sauron or the Nazgul. Is the narrative implying that he has forgotten about Gollum? Any ideas?
No, I don't think the narrator refers to Gollum. I think the narrator means that because of the approach of Aragorn's army, this road between Barad-dur and the Black Gates is full of messengers at this time, and so Sam was taking a very great risk indeed.
5. Why do you think Frodo makes a decision to "bear no weapon, foul or fair"?
Frodo was the most valiant warrior among the hobbits during FotR, threatening the Witch-king and wounding a Barrow-wight and troll. His long burden has changed him, and I think his newfound pacifism is an important part of his battle with the Ring, which surely is urging him to use it as a weapon against Sauron. The battle has moved from the physical plain to the spiritual plain, where weapons, fair or foul, will do no good. So Frodo chooses the pacifism of Bombadil, who was immune to the Ring. But Frodo still bears the Ring. He says he will bear no weapon, but he still bears the most deadly weapon of all.
Sam knows that he must throw away his pots and pans, but hates to part with them, if only because of the memories. 6. Have any of you ever had a similar experience? I know I have.
Of course.
"I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades." 7. What do these few sentences mean to you?
Frodo's battle has moved to the spirit plane. Frodo is describing his vision to Sam, and complains that even when he is awake he continues to see the vision, and not the physical world. Sam will catch his own glimpse of the wheel of fire later.
But how can Frodo be naked in the dark and also see a wheel of fire? Wouldn't the fire light the darkness? Tolkien seems to mix his metaphors a bit.
8. What do you think is giving Frodo his extra strength?
Frodo lightened his physical burden a little, but lightened his spiritual burden a great deal by shedding the orc gear and weapons and declaring his new pacifism. Since the Ring is a spiritual weight, and Frodo is fighting a spiritual battle, shedding that spiritual burden made a big difference.
(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 25 2008, 6:26pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 6:44pm
Post #6 of 30
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About the "claws" in Howe's painting.
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I think Howe's picture actually shows the scene in "The Land of Shadow" that sador discussed here, in which Frodo and Sam gaze out from the Morgai, and realize they can't go straight east to the mountain.
The long "claws" of smoke that appear to extending from the clouds above in Howe's painting would thus be the "fumes [that] leaked from fissures in the earth" in that scene, rising to the sky. Though no doubt Howe intended the claw-like effect you describe.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 24-30 for "Mount Doom".
****************************************
And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 6:46pm
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By the way, it's not really 50 miles.
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I believe Sam discovers that Mount Doom is smaller and closer than he thought. That, plus your mention of relatively-clear skies, might explain why they can see it. And maybe there is some bright lava not mentioned in the text -- it seems the illustrators think so.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 25 2008, 6:57pm
Post #8 of 30
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In defence of Tolkien's metaphor
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But how can Frodo be naked in the dark and also see a wheel of fire? Wouldn't the fire light the darkness?
Wouldn't the wheel of fire be so dazzling that everything else would seem even darker in comparison? The Eye itself reminds me of the lights interrogators use, blinding their victims and making it impossible for them to see anything beyond it. And the Eye "ringed with fire" is surely at the origin of this torturous vision that Frodo has now. It's as if he's a victim of interrogation, stripped and defenceless, pinned in the enemy's light and unable to see anything else.
(This description of what Frodo is going through reminds me of the interrogations in dystopian fantasies such as 1984. I think Sauron and Big Brother have a lot in common.)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 11:28pm
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By the way, by the way, by the beautiful way.
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According to Tolkien's detail map in Volume III, Sam's guess at the distance is eerily accurate.
Later on their journey, when they begin to climb the mountain, Sam overestimates its height. As you correctly remember, he discovers that the mountain is not as high as it seemed in its terrible isolation - it's about 4500 feet. Perhaps due to additional hunger and fatigue at that point he may have lost some of his gift for reading landscapes, compared to this clever guess at the chapter's beginning, where it's almost as if the author, not Sam, is letting us know how far they still have to go.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 26 2008, 4:01am
Post #10 of 30
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Why do you think Frodo makes a decision to "bear no weapon, foul or fair"?
First thing that went through my mind was...Frodo doesn't trust himself to carry a weapon.
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Elenedhel
Ossiriand
Nov 26 2008, 5:49am
Post #11 of 30
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he's afraid he'll attack Sam?
"Though you should find all barren and laid waste, there will be few gardens in Middle-earth that will bloom like your garden, if you sprinkle this earth there. Then you may remember Galadriel, and catch a glimpse far off of Lorien, that you have seen only in our winter. For our spring and summer are gone by, and they will never be seen on earth again save in memory."
-Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 26 2008, 5:52am
Post #12 of 30
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does that sound too far-fetched?
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Elenedhel
Ossiriand
Nov 26 2008, 5:57am
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I think it's a very good idea.
"Though you should find all barren and laid waste, there will be few gardens in Middle-earth that will bloom like your garden, if you sprinkle this earth there. Then you may remember Galadriel, and catch a glimpse far off of Lorien, that you have seen only in our winter. For our spring and summer are gone by, and they will never be seen on earth again save in memory."
-Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 26 2008, 6:00am
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But kind of scary and sad to consider//
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2008, 6:22am
Post #15 of 30
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1. Which picture do you think best fits the description above?
Scary!
Clouds of ash rolling down the slopes of the mountain can only be pyroclastic flows, avalanches of hot ash and volcanic gasses that roar down the slopes of the mountain at a hundred kilometers per hour or more and utterly consume anything in their path. This is the most dangerous type of volcanic eruption: Herculaneum and Pompeii were both destroyed by pyroclastic flows, and the explosion of Mt. Saint Helens that came out the side and flattened tens of kilometers of forest was also. Orodruin is, without question, the most physically dangerous object in all of Middle Earth, surpassing the Dark Tower itself - and it's exactly what Frodo and Sam are trying to get to.
3. What do you think Sam means when he says, "That'll take a week if it takes a day, with Mr. Frodo as he is"?
It's just Sam being practical: Frodo can't walk very fast or very far.
5. Why do you think Frodo makes a decision to "bear no weapon, foul or fair"?
It's a moral choice: he can't win by might at arms. He can only win by courage and character.
7. What do these few sentences mean to you?
He's turning into a wraith again. It instils a further sense of urgency...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2008, 6:24am
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I find it ironic that Sam originally guesses Caradhras to perhaps be Orodruin way back in Book II, and yet now is guessing correctly how far it is to this mountain now that he actually sees it.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2008, 6:31am
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French, "glowing clouds"
I suggest, although Sam may not realize it and think that it is actually the light from the dim illumination from the northern and western sky, that the ash clouds are themselves luminous. Pyroclastic flows often are, hence their exotic French name.
Obviously, the ash cloud is not collapsing, or else it would be impossible to see (and, very shortly, to survive). I'm envisioning a cloud similar to Mt. Pinotubo in 1991 - which looked like a giant cauliflower about 30 km tall.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 26 2008, 7:56am
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Nuées Ardentes I think you mean
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(Sorry, just correcting your French...  )
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 8:34am
Post #19 of 30
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It's interesting in a different way, too
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If we accept your answer to question no. 2 here, Sam might have been very much out of his reckoning then, but correctly recognised the nearest parallel to Mt. Doom in Middle-Earth!
And regarding your previous post
Orodruin is, without question, the most physically dangerous object in all of Middle Earth, surpassing the Dark Tower itself Do you think that answers my question last week, why is Orodruin called 'a beast' and the Dark Tower 'a shadow'? It is less physically dangerous, but in both times Frodo sees it (the first was on Amon Hen) - it is Barad-dur which dominates the landscape, and destroys all hope in his heart, even before he sees the Eye.
(Of course, there is a third time, at the end of this chapter - but with a totally different effect)
"I do not chose now to do what I came to do" - Frodo
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 3:32pm
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I came away with the impression that 50 miles was wrong, an overestimate. We have to resort to the map to discover it is accurate. The fact that it is so accurate therefore makes no impression on me when I read the text.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 4:04pm
Post #21 of 30
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I don't remember anything in the text that gives that impression. If anything, to me it feels like more than 50 miles, since it will take Frodo and Sam more than six days to go from the Isenmouthe (March 19) to the Cracks of Doom (March 25).
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 24-30 for "Mount Doom".
****************************************
And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 5:02pm
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that Mount Doom is shorter than he thought, and closer. But obviously my impression is not universal, since you thought perhaps he underestimated the distance. Still, the text apparently did not leave either of us with the impression that Sam's calculation of distance is exact -- it took squire's eagle eye to point that out.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 6:04pm
Post #23 of 30
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Maybe Christopher Tolkien drew the map
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...with Sam's figure in mind. Even within the story, the map could be based on Sam's guess, never checked against the work of professional Gondorian surveyers.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 24-30 for "Mount Doom".
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And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 10:06pm
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I still have a hard time picturing it.
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On the one hand there is lots of ash and dust apparently flying in all directions for days, darkening the sky for miles around; yet on the other hand Sam can make out Mount Doom from fifty miles away and there's no mention of falling ash. It all seems a bit contradictory in the text, even if it is possible to rationalize.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2008, 1:01am
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Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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