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sador
Gondolin
Nov 21 2008, 8:21am
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The Land of Shadow, part IX - Going North
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After the orcs have gone (or at least the tracker did), Sam tells Frodo all about his adventures – starting with Gollum’s treachery, and up to the rescue of Frodo from the Tower. When he had finished, Frodo said nothing, but took Sam’s hand and pressed it.
1. Is that all? Is nothing else necessary, or is Frodo beyond doing anything else?
The day of the 17th passes with Frodo trying to remember the map; but despite saying he remembers it only vaguely, he seems to have quite an accurate memory.
2. Isn’t that quite impressive of Frodo do remember that much, after all he’s been through? Of course, remember Pippin said (in ‘The Ring Gooes South’) that Frodo has a good head for maps.
3. Did he entertain any hope of continuing the Quest, or was he trying to make sense of the orc’s stories about ‘the lovely Lugburz’ (Gorbag’s phrase)?
4. Earlier in this chapter, Frodo complained about being unable to remember the Shire. Why can’t he, when he does remember old maps he glanced at in Rivendell?
Consequently, Sam decides to go even shorter on water. On that day, And Shagrat brought Frodo’s mail-shirt to the Dark Tower.
On the 18th they get to Carach Angren, the Isenmouthe. A few miles north, high up in the angle where the westren spur branched away from the main range, stood the old castle of Durthang, now one of the many orc-holds that clustered about the dale of Udun.
5. “The old castle of Durthang” – does ‘old’ mean from Sauron’s first realm? Numenorean – if so, what was it’s purpose? The name is Sindarin, isn’t it?
A strong wing from the West was now driving the fumes of Mordor from the upper airs.
6. Again, the wind seems to be a good omen. Does it reassure you?
7. After the reminder of Varda’s concern for Middle-Earth, does this wind recall Manwe?
Looking at the calendar again – the Host of the West marched from Minas Tirith on that day. Everything is ready for the showdown at the end of book V.
Frodo, exhausted, lies down to sleep, with Sam guarding his sleep.
Sam did not tell him that he had drunk the last drop of their water, and eaten Sam’s share of the food as well as his own. When Frodo was asleep Sam bent over him and listened to his breathing and scanned his face. It was lined and thin, and yet in sleep it looked content and unafraid.
8. Such a beautiful moment of intimacy! Does it remind you of a previous one?
However, Sam must leave Frodo, as the water simply isn’t enough – and once they leave the trough, finding more is going to be even more difficult. But his sacrifice is rewarded – he finds water, and cathches Gollum on time. Later, he wakes Frodo up, and warns him Gollum is around – to which Frodo replies that Gollum is better than orcs.
9. Why does Frodo believe that, even after Sam’s tale of Gollum’s treachery?
Sam goes to sleep, and while he slept Frodo fell asleep too; but it appears even in sleep he has no rest. However, Gollum did not reappear. Luck again.
10. Regarding the previous moment of intimacy – compare and contrast it to this one.
The next thread will be the penultimate one, in which we will meet orcs again.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 22 2008, 11:35pm
Post #2 of 18
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We know full well that the Valar are hard at work in the War of the Ring, even if They are not Themselves physically present. I wonder what Melkor is up to? How much of this darkness and all that do you think is merely Sauron's doing?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 23 2008, 11:54pm
Post #4 of 18
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When he had finished, Frodo said nothing, but took Sam’s hand and pressed it.
Is that all? Is nothing else necessary, or is Frodo beyond doing anything else?
For me-- that was enough. One of those *touching* moments were words would not add (much of) anything to what was expressed here.
As for Frodo's *selective* memory at this point in the story--he seems to be operating in a *crisis* mode...only those things that will help in achieving the task at hand are of importance...one of these being which direction he should take.
(This post was edited by batik on Nov 23 2008, 11:54pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 24 2008, 4:52am
Post #5 of 18
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I see Frodo's memory as being all of head and none of heart. He knows everything that has taken place in his life, but he cannot emotionally re-experience it. He knows that flowers have bloomed, but cannot take refuge in any memory of their beauty.
And yes, I found that scene of nonverbal communication exquisitely touching, too!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 24 2008, 2:49pm
Post #6 of 18
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Remember that Sauron wanted to accept amnesty, but could not do so because of his oaths to Morgoth. Morgoth cannot be killed as long as Arda remains marred. And according to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, Morgoth will return at the end of time. There are several references in LotR to Sauron's old master, and to the place where evil has been banished until the end of time.
I agree that Morgoth does not act directly in LotR, but he may act indirectly through his agents, and his continued relevance is hinted at from time to time. Certainly Gandalf implies that the downfall of Sauron does not mean that evil itself is vanquished.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 7:44pm
Post #8 of 18
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Indirect action is still action.
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I would not discount the importance of Morgoth's indirect effect on events in Middle-earth. All of his minions continue to work on his behalf, whether they realize it or not, and whether they want to or not. Sauron may appear to be a new Dark Lord, but in fact he is still Morgoth's slave.
I don't want to belabor the point. I just think Beren IV has a point when he wonders what Morgoth is up to. Morgoth is up to something -- he wants to escape, and ultimately all of his minions are working to make that happen, at least if we accept the Second Prophecy. Morgoth is still Sauron's Master.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 8:25pm
Post #9 of 18
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Need Sauron be Morgoth's slave?
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As Saruman harbors secret desires to set himself up as the leading figure in Middle-earth, deposing Sauron, couldn't Sauron be hoping for the same with regard to Morgoth? Is Morgoth the force behind all evil? Or just the most powerful evil figure?
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 25 2008, 11:01pm
Post #10 of 18
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Bewitched, belabored, and bewildered
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Right, we're just talking past each other.
Well, OK. One last time. As I understood him, Beren IV was speculating exactly about direct action by Morgoth in causing the darkness at the end of the Third Age.
Not indirect action. Not working through Sauron, etc. Direct action, just as the Valar are perceived to be doing from behind the scenes. My answer was that Morgoth is not balanced against the Valar in directly affecting events on Middle-earth any longer. He is gone, though he may return. His creations are still active and serve his cause; they do not serve his will, because he has none that can reach them; they do not serve him any longer, because he does not exist in the world.
The Valar, when they do directly intervene in worldly affairs (winds, Istari, finding Rings, stars peeking through clouds, etc.), are contesting the will of Sauron, not Morgoth. The only reason that this is an even contest is that the Valar have decided not to extend themselves very much, for fear of possible catastrophic effects on the world, based on past experience.
To answer such an argument with "indirect action is still action" is to ignore the distinction both Beren IV and I made between action and direct action. Obviously both direct action and indirect action are forms of action. Obviously Morgoth was the prime evil at the beginning of the world. Obviously he is the spiritual origin of the Darkness that Sauron represents.
None of those points were being discounted, as you seem to think. They just don't apply to the actual, specific, question at hand: is Morgoth himself directly responsible for the Great Darkness that Frodo and Sam and the rest of the West are laboring against? As I said, I don't see how he can be, given what we know about his present state of being.
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Elros
Ossiriand
Nov 26 2008, 12:00am
Post #11 of 18
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And it's nice to be back! The evil Melkor introduced into the world will continue to be present until the Dagor Dagorath, despite his banishment to the Void, but he no longer controls this evil anymore. He can no longer swear curses or spread false hopes in order to determine specific events in Middle Earth any longer. Accepting Melkor's evil and doing his will depends on an individual's ability to overcome the fear and despair he brought to Arda. Some, like Aragorn, have the strength and character to resist evil, while others, like Saruman, are not able to overcome their temptation.
I guess this ties into the free will discussion several months back. I know Tolkien makes several references in the LOTR about the intervention of the Valar to aid our heroes, but I think because of this we sometimes look for other possible instances where this might have happened without Tolkien pointing it out. I love the Sil more than any of Tolkien's works for it's mythological feel, as well as the incredible backstory it gives to Middle Earth. That said, sometimes we have to ignore it and focus strictly on LOTR when we analyze the characters and events. I know that I'm probably in an overwhelming minority with that thinking, but I think if we attribute too much of the good or evil of characters purely to the will of Melkor vs. Manwe, then the great story of LOTR turns into nothing more than a video game being played by the gods.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2008, 6:12am
Post #12 of 18
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I think we need to define direct and indirect. Morgoth - the physical form of Melkor - is in the Void and cannot affect Middle Earth during the War of the Ring except indirectly. But can he act indirectly? It is implied that Théoden channels Oromë, for example, on the Pellenor. Could Sauron similarly be channelling Melkor? Could Melkor act indirectly, through a champion or vassal?
I would suggest that he can, but not through Morgoth. As you've noted, Melkor's essence, indeed the greater part of it, is infused with Arda. How much of the WK's sorcery consists of casting spells through Melkor's essence in Arda, even if Melkor cannot, of his own volition and without servants to do his will. But I'm just posing a question.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 26 2008, 7:54am
Post #13 of 18
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Posing a question is one thing
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How much of the WK's sorcery consists of casting spells through Melkor's essence in Arda, even if Melkor cannot, of his own volition and without servants to do his will. But I'm just posing a question.
But assuming that there is an answer - a real, meaningful answer - is quite another. Who is the Authority who can tell us exactly who is doing what? We only have the chroniclers' own report to go on, and they seem not to know, since they don't attempt to answer questions such as these. We are left to base our understanding of events on intuition, or faith, just as we are in the real world.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 8:18am
Post #14 of 18
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I wouldn't consider sending the Istari 'direct' action
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Or the star seen above the clouds. By the way, what do you make of the comparison of it to the star Frodo sees in Rivendell, in 'The Ring Goes South'?
Neither are the Eagles necessarily sent by the Valar, not even at this point. As I've argued before, their coming to Frodo's rescue could be explained by looking at the larger picture (although to those involved in the fight before the Morannon, it seems a Deus ex Machina).
Sauron controlls the weather to a certain extent too, so the winds are not necessarily controlled by Manwe himself.
However, in 2003, when NZ Strider and hatster argued the Valar did nothing in the third age after of sending the Istari (see my summary thread), they did not claim no Deus ex Machina existed; rather that things were controlled by Eru himself - although they were talking about Gandalf's return from death, and not necessarily the finding of the Ring. Your point about Gandalf's words "there is more than one power at work" seems correct; they do imply another power, comparable to Sauron (which is likely to mean another Ainu, rather than Eru), which 'competes' with his designs. I am not sure whether it is utterly convincing or not.
However, what you wrote about the Valar's not interfering because of fear for the consequences to Arda (I recall Curious writing something in this vein sometime ago), seems contradicted by the account of the Akallabeth in appendix A:
But when Ar-Pharazon set foot upon the shoers of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. How do you understand that?
So to sum up - the end of the Silmarillion notwithstanding, in what are the Valar more 'present' in Arda than Morgoth is?
"I do not chose now to do what I came to do" - Frodo
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2008, 3:58pm
Post #15 of 18
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Are the Valar acting directly?
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It seems to me the Valar act indirectly, although I think they act frequently. They act by giving aid to the heroes of the tale, aid which skeptics call luck. Why can't Morgoth, or Melkor's lingering spirit in Middle-earth, or both, act in the same way?
Note that the Ring seems to have a will of its own, a will that originated with Sauron. If Middle-earth is Morgoth's Ring, couldn't it also have a will of its own, a will that originated with Morgoth? And couldn't Mount Doom, the source of the Great Darkness, also be a strong source of Morgoth's taint?
It is Morgoth's taint that keeps the other Valar in check, by the way. It is that taint that drove them out of Middle-earth in the first place, and it is because of that taint that they cannot just crush Sauron like the petty little Maia he is. It is because of Morgoth's taint that they could only win the War of Wrath by drowning Beleriand under the sea, and I submit that it is because Morgoth's taint infected Numenor that they called upon Eru to drown Numenor under the sea. But they can't or won't just go around drowning all of Middle-earth under the sea. They have to find another more indirect way to act through the unlikely heroes of Middle-earth rather than for them.
And if the Valar continue to act indirectly from a distance, why not Morgoth? If the East Wind favors Sauron, is that all Sauron's doing, or could he be calling upon a Higher Evil? The Ring, made with the fires of Mount Doom, seems to give Sauron a direct pipeline to this Higher Evil, thus magnifying his powers expodentially. But even without the Ring, might Sauron still do his best to tap the resources available to him, starting with that fount of evil, Mount Doom? And who is responsible for Mount Doom if not Morgoth?
I'm not claiming any of this is correct, or that you are wrong to say that Morgoth's creations do not serve his will because he has none that can reach him. Perhaps you are right. But I don't think it is clear. As long as Middle-earth remains Morgoth's Ring, and Morgoth remains imprisoned but not dead, I think there is at least a possibility that he continues to exert his will in Middle-earth much as the rest of the Valar may do so, from a distance.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 27 2008, 3:13am
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If Melkor infused the greater part of himself into Arda, just as Sauron infused the greater part of himself into the Ring, then, even as Sauron acts through his Ring without any conscious will, so Morgoth acts through Arda without any conscious will. This theory is sort of a perversion of the "Clockmaker God" of the Theists--a clockmaker devil. That is, one who sets up a machine into motion to do his will long after he has gone on to other things. Except there always seemed to be something nastily sentient about the Ring. I would not call Arda the least bit nasty, but confused, delirious, maybe, in a Manchurian Candidate sort of way.
So--would you consider that direct or indirect? One can act directly and unconsciously at the same time, as in the case of a crime of passion. If the machine does exactly what Morgoth wants it to, in his absence, isn't that more direct than merely having once led Sauron astray? It's the difference between having been a bad influence on a kid who grows up to be a criminal (indirect) versus deliberately implanting hypnotic suggestions and brainwashing to make him do your will when you can't be there (closer to direct, possibly crossing the line.)
Anyway, it might not be an either/or question. Indirect and direct might play out as whole spectrum of degrees between absolute directness and absolute indirectness.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 29 2008, 5:11am
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rather than 'Theist' (and I should know!).
But otherwise, yes, the line between direct and indirect gets blurry!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 29 2008, 5:32pm
Post #18 of 18
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Thank you for teaching me--Deist it is! //
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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