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sador
Gondolin
Nov 23 2008, 8:19am
Post #1 of 8
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The Land of Shadow, part X - Trapped
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Sam is encouraged by the thought that luck hasn’t left him yet, and the hobbits take the road. But soon they are overtaken by orcs, marching from Durthang to the Isenmouthe. Frodo feels betrayed by luck:
1. What is the role of luck here? What is luck?
The hobbits sit down with their shields before them. But Sam still entertains a forlorn hope: “If only they are in a hurry and will let a couple of tired soldiers alone and pass on!”
2. Doesn’t this seem to be the ultimate case of ‘a fool’s hope’? Is there any possibility this will happen, or is Sam simply hanging on desperately to whatever straws he can think of?
It doesn’t help. The marching orcs might not notice them, but two large Uruks serve as slave-drivers, and one of them notices the Hobbits – but still, mistakes them for deserting orcs.
He took a step towards them, and even in the gloom he recognized the devices on their shields. ‘Deserting, eh?’ he snarled. ‘Or thinking of it? All your folk should have been inside Udun before yesterday evening.’
3. It’s a good thing Frodo did not cast away his shield when he cast away his armour! Did you notice he didn’t? Why would he keep the shield – for cover?
4. Is it surprising the smaller orcs do not notice them – or don’t they mind other soldiers deserting, as a solidarity among the lower ranks?
5. I used to think this forced march was not so much because the orcs prefered marching at night, but because the Captains of the West have passed by Minas Morgul and were heading to the Black Gate. But the slave-driver says the orcs of Shagrat’s company were supposed to be in Udun the night before. Were they relocated as a punishment for their failure, or comandeered for the Dark Lord’s next stroke?
6. A last point – why weren’t their feet noticed? If orcs are ‘iron-shod’ and hobbits walk nearly silently, and have no shoes – would they be caught if in daylight?
The slave-driver seems very pleased with his catching them:
Up you get and fall in, or I’ll have your numbers and report you...
‘There now!’ he laughed, flicking at their legs. ‘Where there’s a whip there’s a will, my slugs. Hold up! I’d give you a nice freshener now, only you’ll get as much lash as your skins will carry when you come in late to your camp. Do you good. Don’t you know we’re at war?’
No specific questions about this speech – but it is worth copying here in full. Any comments about it are more than welcome.
7. The orcs have numbers – does this apply only to the smaller breeds? Appendix F mentions the name Snaga meant ‘slave’, and wasn’t a personal name. in the book, we have already met two of those. So would Snaga have a number, as opposed to Shagrat?
8. In the encounter with orcs before, the soldier said he will report the tracker name and number; so they have both. In the previous chapter, we have heard of three other subordinate orcs, which do have a personal name: Lagduf, Muzgash and Radbug – and Radbug is names by Shagrat, who calls Frodo’s guard ‘Snaga’. Is Tolkien being inconsistent?
Frodo often falters on the march, and Sam is full on concern: “At any moment now he knew that the end would come: his master would faint or fall, and all would be discovered, and their bitter efforts be in vain. ‘I’ll have that big slave-driving devil anyway,’ he thought.”
9. Sam calls the slave-driver ‘a devil’. Are there any others? Devilry there is: and usually in connection with Saruman, or the Balrog of Moria.
10. How can Sam be so confident of ‘having’ the big Uruk? What does that say of him?
However, the Hobbits are saved by the mess at the Isenmouthe, in which different columns of marching orcs jostle for the right to enter first.
11. Is there no ‘boss’ in charge? After reading about the orderly Morgul-host, shouldn’t we expect it? Is this another indication of the Dark Lord being in a hurry, and gathering as many soldiers as possible as fast as he can?
With a last despairing effort Frodo raised himself on his hands, and struggled on for maybe twenty yards. Then he pitched down into a shallow pit that opened unexpectedly before them, and there he lay like a dead thing.
Once again, they drop over the edge of the road, and Frodo pitches down into a shallow pit. The chpater ends pretty much as it began.
12. Tolkien’s description of Frodo and Sam’s escape sounds far more realistic than the version Jackson filmed (and is in the EE). Could Jacksons’ implausible version be defended?
13. The whole detour which Gollum had suggested fourteen days ago is over. The hobbits are on the ‘right’ side of Udun, which was probably even more unpassable than the Morannon – Frodo rejected the idea of crossing Gorgoroth, and in Udun the Orcs and Men are ‘packed closer’ (Sam’s words earlier this chapter), and there is probably even less cover. So was the detour crowned with success? Was it a better way to take, even if Gollum had no intention of betraying them to Shelob?
Next time we’ll have a wrap-up.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 23 2008, 9:29pm
Post #2 of 8
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1. Feet. Uruk slavedrivers are not necessarily observant about those they drive. The commander only saw the devices on their shields, and desired no further identification than that. Oppression requires semi-invisibility. To see too much of the oppressed might risk empathy.
2. Desertion seems to be a major problem that Sauron has to deal with all the time. It's the first thing that comes to mind when the slave-driver sees two soldiers who aren't marching. Elsewhere various orcs make reference to rebels fairly often. Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation sounded to me, in part, like a plot to desert if the war went well enough that they'd be overlooked. And the tower at Cirith Ungol fences people in, not out.
(This feeds my fantasy of a few orcs slipping away and slowly regaining their souls, away from harmful influences. But that's just me.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 24 2008, 4:24am
Post #4 of 8
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Empathy, like language, is learned, yet human beings naturally incline to learn it with varying degrees of success or lack thereof, again like language. We are pack animals and need empathy to survive. Sociopaths reduce the survival odds of the group, and furthermore make terrible parents, reducing the survival odds of their offspring. Like language, empathy gives an evolutionary advantage; we are wired for it, ready for its installation, although the installation doesn't always take place.
So, whichever theory of orc-creation you prefer, Morgoth and Sauron had to start with creatures naturally inclined to develop empathy, if given a chance to do so. So they deliberately created (in my theory) the conditions necessary to nip empathy in the bud, which so many dysfunctional families have stumbled upon accidentally. Yet there will always be some risk of the program going awry. A human sociopath does not become confirmed in his pathology until ~25 years old. Young orcs might risk empathizing, if they're not careful.
But yes. The slavedriver didn't notice the hobbit feet because he didn't care to notice too much about slaves at all.
(Incidentally, did you know that the Roman Coliseum was not built, in the opinions of the Romans, as an expression of decadence, but as an effort to stave it off? They intented it as family entertainment, to kill empathy in young soldiers-to-be. It seems that Morgoth and Sauron had emulators.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 24 2008, 4:54am
Post #5 of 8
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But yes. The slavedriver didn't notice the hobbit feet because he didn't care to notice too much about slaves at all.
Maybe fitting the general "profile" was kind of in Frodo and Sam's favor?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 24 2008, 9:40am
Post #6 of 8
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...(and indeed those other "higher moral qualities" that squire mentions) being "wired" in all of us at birth, ready to be installed, along with a given language. You could call it a kind of instinct, perhaps, analagous to the "language instinct" (the term used by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker).
The thing about empathy though, is that it depends very much on another instinct, which is the urge to divide the world into "us" and "them". This too is a survival technique, and I think it's the boundary between us and them, between those we love and those we hate and fear, that is really what gets developed in the child as it establishes its worldview. This is always a fluctuating boundary, depending on perceived threats to the group. Which is what Frodo points out in this chapter, when he tells Sam that the orcs would leave off their quarrelling and join forces if they got wind of them.
So I agree that the orcs, brutalized as they are, would be capable of empathy, but it would be for very few - their boundaries would be drawn very tight, with very few of "us" - people they trust - inside it. Everyone else must be kept outside, which as you say means not looking at them properly - refusing to admit their full humanity. I have no trouble imagining the slave-driving orcs not looking at their victims except as objects. They don't care who Frodo and Sam are, except that they're a couple of extra creatures that they can express their hatred on.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 24 2008, 4:02pm
Post #7 of 8
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As someone currently struggling with the idea of actually killing and eating the sprouts and salad-greens that I have so carefully nurtured from seeds, I can certainly understand the need to discriminate in empathy! I'm surrounded by vegetarians who can't understand why I eat meat. It's because once I start worrying about eating not being a legitimate reason to kill, I won't be able to stop with animals!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Elros
Ossiriand
Nov 26 2008, 12:15am
Post #8 of 8
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What is luck? I think luck is merely whether events beyond our control work in our favor. For example:
1. What is the role of luck here? Sam is encouraged by luck because he was desperate to find water and did. The Isenmouthe was nearby, so he was fortunate to find water in such a desolate and vile land. Sam couldn't control the availability of water in Mordor, but was able to get some anyways. Frodo feels betrayed by luck due to the orcs marching by and forcing the hobbits to join their march. He couldn't control whether or not orcs would march by at that exact moment.
2. Doesn’t this seem to be the ultimate case of ‘a fool’s hope’? Is there any possibility this will happen, or is Sam simply hanging on desperately to whatever straws he can think of? Absolutely. He has seen enough of the behavior of orcs to know they would never pass them by and ignore them. Orcs are the ultimate playground bullies, constantly berating each other to make themselves feel more important.
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