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sador
Gondolin
Nov 18 2008, 10:07pm
Post #1 of 6
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The Land of Shadow, part IV - The White Queen's Knight
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The first two threads are going nicely, and the third hardly at all. Well, here comes the fourth.
If only the Lady could see us or hear us, I’d say to her: ‘Your Ladyship, all we want is light and water’.... But it’s a long way to Lorien.
As a matter of fact, this is not the first time Sam invokes the Lady; he did so also when he left Frodo in ‘The Choices of Master Samwise’:
And if the Lady could hear me and give me one wish, I would wish to come back and find you.
1. Is Sam actually praying to Galadriel? Does he believe she help him from afar - and how does he reconcile this faith with his feeling that the distance prevents her from hearing him?
2. What does this say about the religion of Sam? Of hobbits in general? Of Tolkien?
Sam’s prayers are actually answered: when morning comes, it brings indeed light with it. But it must be pointed out that the wind has changed already the night before: “The easterly wind that had been blowing ever since they left Ithilien now seemed dead”.
The change in the wind was noticed already by Ghan-buri-Ghan, and later by Widfara (who has pointed out the new wind will come from the southwest, which is the shortest way from the sea). This feeling was expressed in the most striking by Gimli, in ‘The Last Debate’:
Heavy would my heart have been, for all our victory at the havens, if Legolas had not laughed suddenly. “Up with your beard, Durin’s son!” he said. “For thus is it spoken: Oft hope is born, when all is forlorn”... But at midnight hope was indeed born anew.
This was the night in which Frodo and Sam escaped. And at this very time, Denethor gave in to despair.
3. If change was already on it’s way, was the invocation Lady Galadriel in vain?
Sam is encouraged. Later, when they hear the Lord of the Nazgul’s death-wail – he realises the War is going the right way, and quotes Gorbag as being right again; but Frodo still has no hope:
We’re going east not west. And I’m so tired. And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire.
4. An aside – in what else was Gorbag right?
5. Sam’s previous mention of Shagrat: “If Shagrat himself was to offer me a glass of water, I’d shake his hand”, together with this, imply that he sees Shagrat as the epitome of cruel stupidity. Do you agree? When we did ‘The Choices of Master Samwise’, Dreamdeer thought otherwise.
6. Frodo brings four reasons for despair: they are going in the wrong direction, out of help and hope’s way; he is physically exhausted; the Ring is pulling him down; and it is eating up his mind. How do these four relate to each other?
7. The light is no more than a grey dusk, and grows no stronger as the day advances: the fumes and smokes of Orodruin defeat it. If we see the light as connected to the Lady, is this a foreshadowing of the Phial’s failure in the Sammath Naur?
Of course, if we ask the Lady for light, we should consider the phial; wasn’t Frodo given it for just such a case - ‘May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out’?
Actually, after Frodo’s first confrontation with Shelob, Sam is the one who uses the phial – once against Shelob herself, and twice against the Watchers at the Tower of Cirith Ungol; and he also tried to in in the Sammath Naur. Here, in Mordor, while Sam asks the Lady for light, Frodo says (later in this chapter): “It’s dark, and we cannot use the Lady’s glass”
8. Are Frodo’s words merely a caution, to avoid discovery – or do they imply that he cannot use the phial any more?
It is tempting to see Sam as the new phial-bearer. However, in the end of ‘The Grey Havens’, Frodo takes it with him over the Sea, “and the light of the phial of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost”.
But while the Lady’s gift to Frodo is lost, her gift to Sam continues to bear fruit. In a way, Sam becomes Galadriel’s heir in Middle-Earth, and his invocations of her are but a part of a long connection between them:
· It is Sam who wishes she would take the Ring.
· Sam carries her token on the gift he received from her – ’Here is set G for Galadriel,’ she said; ‘but also it may stand for garden in your own tongue’. In a way, Sam is the true heir of Galadriel in Middle-Earth – he even grows a mallorn!
· Sam’s connection with the rope: It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel.
· Sam’s understanding of Boromir: It’s my opinion that in Lorien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner. Compare to what Faramir told Frodo: ‘You passed through the Hidden Land,’ said Faramir, ‘but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealing with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golgen Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow.’
· At the end of ‘Many Partings’: Sam turned away and sighed: ‘I wish I was going back to Lorien!’
· And at their last meeting, in ‘The Grey Havens’: Sam bowed, but found nothing to say. He had forgotten how beatiful the Lady was.
9. It seems an overfetched idea, but considering that the other member of the Fellowship who became Lady Galadriel’s ‘knight’ and bore her token, was granted passage over the Sea because of his love for her – is it possible she was also a reason for Sam’s passage?
About the two knights idea – I just want to point out that Sam and Gimli are the only members of the Fellowship which we know how they reacted to Galadriel in their first meeting.
Sam was reminded of the Lady by the Elven-cloak. “It don’t look quite orc-fashion, but it’ll keep you warmer; and I daresay it’ll keep you from harm better than any other gear. It was made by the Lady”.
10. Is this a case of Sam ‘casting his mantle’ over Frodo, trying to renew his hope, and to grant him grace? Does it succeed?
So here we have Sam, the White Queen’s Knight – wearing the Lady’s mantle, bearing her blessings of light and earth, bearing her name as well. And of course – there is the special mark of honour, the gift of Lembas. Sam offers it to Frodo, saying “it may hearten you”.
11. Comments? Consider Melian’s gift of Lembas to Beleg.
The other thing Sam asked for (and was granted) is water. The fact is that there are water in this part of Mordor. Does this make the Land of Shadow more like the lands of the living? We will turn to that question on the next thread.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 19 2008, 2:03am
Post #2 of 6
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Is Sam actually praying to Galadriel? Does he believe she help him from afar - and how does he reconcile this faith with his feeling that the distance prevents her from hearing him?
I don't read this as Sam *praying* to Galadriel so much as his voicing his awareness of her strengths which could conceivably assist the Hobbits in sucessfully completing the task.
2. What does this say about the religion of Sam? Of hobbits in general? Of Tolkien?
hmmm...I don't know that I've read anything related to any *formal* religion with regards to the Hobbits. I'll stick with the above opinion and add to it that an awareness and acknowledgement of "higher" powers might exist in the culture.
3. If change was already on it’s way, was the invocation Lady Galadriel in vain?
No, not if it brought Sam some comfort.
4. An aside – in what else was Gorbag right?
Well-that there was more than one intruder?
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 19 2008, 9:15am
Post #3 of 6
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Again, artificially increasing the number of replies...
[In reply to]
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This is the link to Dreamdeer's discussion (question H).
But she was more explicit in the thread I have already linked to previously, on this post.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2008, 11:47pm
Post #4 of 6
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1. Is Sam actually praying to Galadriel?
Only loosely. I also find it interesting that he says the "Lady." There is another "Lady" who might hear him -- Elbereth Gilthoniel.
Does he believe she help him from afar - and how does he reconcile this faith with his feeling that the distance prevents her from hearing him?
I think he wonders if his wish was somehow heard -- and I happen to think it was, although I doubt that Galadriel was responsible.
2. What does this say about the religion of Sam? Of hobbits in general? Of Tolkien?
Very little about Sam's religion, but a great deal about his faith. Sam readily believes that someone heard him, even if he isn't sure who. It doesn't say much about other hobbits, who are mostly very different from Sam. It says something about Tolkien, I suppose, but this is hardly an autobiography. Tolkien was much more overtly religious than Sam.
3. If change was already on it’s way, was the invocation Lady Galadriel in vain?
That's hard to say. What would have happened if Sam had not made a wish? Perhaps nothing different -- but it meant a great deal to Sam that his wish seemed to be answered.
4. An aside – in what else was Gorbag right?
I don't know.
5. Sam’s previous mention of Shagrat: “If Shagrat himself was to offer me a glass of water, I’d shake his hand”, together with this, imply that he sees Shagrat as the epitome of cruel stupidity. Do you agree?
Well, Shagrat hurt his master. I think that's enough for Sam.
6. Frodo brings four reasons for despair: they are going in the wrong direction, out of help and hope’s way; he is physically exhausted; the Ring is pulling him down; and it is eating up his mind. How do these four relate to each other?
The Ring has a great deal to do with Frodo's exhaustion and mental stress. I'm not sure it has anything to do with going in the wrong direction, but the added miles certainly don't help Frodo.
7. The light is no more than a grey dusk, and grows no stronger as the day advances: the fumes and smokes of Orodruin defeat it. If we see the light as connected to the Lady, is this a foreshadowing of the Phial’s failure in the Sammath Naur?
Sometimes the darkness seems to overcome the light, but it is only temporary. I don't connect the light of the Sun to Galadriel, though. I connect this light to Manwe, who helped break up the Great Darkness, and perhaps to Varda/Elbereth Gilthoniel, another Lady who may have heard Sam's wish.
8. Are Frodo’s words merely a caution, to avoid discovery – or do they imply that he cannot use the phial any more?
I take them as a caution, to avoid discovery.
9. It seems an overfetched idea, but considering that the other member of the Fellowship who became Lady Galadriel’s ‘knight’ and bore her token, was granted passage over the Sea because of his love for her – is it possible she was also a reason for Sam’s passage?
As I understand it, Galadriel and Arwen both argued for the passage of the Ringbearers, but Gandalf was the judge who granted such passage. I don't think Sam is any different from Frodo, though, in this respect. And I think Gimli is different, since he was not a Ringbearer.
10. Is this a case of Sam ‘casting his mantle’ over Frodo, trying to renew his hope, and to grant him grace? Does it succeed?
I think it has less to do with Sam than with the inherent goodness of an elvish cloak.
So here we have Sam, the White Queen’s Knight – wearing the Lady’s mantle, bearing her blessings of light and earth, bearing her name as well. And of course – there is the special mark of honour, the gift of Lembas. Sam offers it to Frodo, saying “it may hearten you”.
11. Comments? Consider Melian’s gift of Lembas to Beleg.
Sam is bearing the gifts because Frodo has his own burden. But it is Frodo who is the Master here. Sam, with the help of the gifts of the elves and perhaps the blessing of Higher Powers, offers Frodo all the support he can, not as a priest, but as a disciple.
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 21 2008, 8:07am
Post #5 of 6
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"Going in the wrong direction" meant East towards the Shadow, and not West, where hope is being born.
At the moment, Frodo is still looking for a gully to lead hm up and over the Morgai; only once that fails, he will start making the real long detour.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 22 2008, 11:31pm
Post #6 of 6
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An idea occurs to me, with the suggestion that Sam may be praying to Galadriel. Might Galadriel be treated here as a saint, of sorts?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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