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sador
Gondolin
Nov 18 2008, 8:29am
Post #1 of 11
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The Land of Shadow, part III - “Slowly and painfully they clambered down”
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The hobbits’ journey through Mordor begins with avoiding a sheer drop, at last, Frodo is forced to jump over the bridge. Sam bids farewell to his Master:
Well, here goes, Mr. Frodo,’ said Sam. ‘Good-bye!
1. Sam’s fatalistic comment seems to imply he abandons all hope. After all, he is afraid of heights – as was shown in crossing the Celebrant and in the Emyn Muil. Or is he just being ironic, jesting in this desperate condition? Remember, too, Sam “would have laughed” immediately once the fall is over. What do you think?
2. Later in the chapter, Tolkien notes: “Had they known, they could have reached it (the path between the mountain-ranges) quicker, for it was a track that left the main Morgul-road at the westren bridge-end and went down by a long stair cut into the rock to the valley’s bottom”. Is this an ironic comment on the Hobbits’ dash across the bridge? Could they simply have managed to avoid this fall?
While Sam would have laughed, Frodo remains grim:
When the sound of hoof and foot had passed he ventured a whisper. ‘Bless me, Mr. Frodo, but I didn’t know as anything grew in Mordor. But if I had a’known, this is just what I’d have looked for... Wish I’d a’put that mail-shirt on!’ ‘Orc-mail doesnt keep those thorns out,’ said Frodo. ‘Not even a leather jerkin is any good.’
The hobbits feel the valley between the Ephel Duath and the Morgai is the best way to avoid detection for the moment, and decide to follow it north at night. The first, and most acute, trouble they encounter is thirst.
Both were sweating. ‘If Shagrat himself was to offer me a glass of water, I’d shake his hand,’ said Sam. ‘Don’t say such things!’ said Frodo. ‘It only makes it worse.’
3. Is Sam again making jest of his actual sufferings?
4. Four months ago, when I was leading “The Black Gate is Closed”, I asked about the role of humour in Frodo’s decision to trust Gollum. Does Sam’s humour enhance his endurance? What does Frodo’s apparant lack of humour say about him at this point?
And of course, there is the dark. In Frodo’s words:
But this blind dark seems to be getting into my heart.
5. Is the dark here a physical torment, or does it oppress the hobbit’s spirits? Is it any different from the dark of Torech Ungol?
6. Why is this torment, alone of all their sufferings, described by it’s effect on him?
The physical torture they expeience will grow as they go on, reaching it’s extreme in the next chapter:
The last stage of their journey to Orodruin came, and it was a torment greater than Sam had ever though he could bear. He was in pain, and so parched that he could no longer swallow even a mouthful of food. It remained dark... Worst of all, the air was full of fumes; breathing was painful and difficult, and a dizziness came upon them, so that they staggered and often fell.
Next, we are treated to a rare occurance – for the only time between his watching the Morgul-army set forth and the end of ‘The Steward and the King’, in which we see with Frodo’s eyes (the above-mentioned sentence was heard by Sam):
Then he stretcehed himeself out, dizzy and weary, and he spoke no more for a while. At last with a struggle he got up again. To his amazement he found that Sam was asleep.
7. Apart of sheer wearyness – does Sam’s dropping off serve as a further sign of hopelessness? What would be its effect on Frodo?
Frodo himself is just as tired, and is utterly without hope. He decides to abandon safety for reducing his discomfort, and wants to throw his armour:
I am tired, weary, I haven’t a hope left. But I have to go on trying to get to the Mountain, as long as I can move. The Ring is enough. This extra weight is killing me. It must go.
8. Does Frodo feel the Ring as a physical weight? Or does he mix the physical and spiritual burdens he is bearing?
Another horrible thing happens to Frodo: he loses his memory of the Shire:
As I lay in prison, Sam, I tried to remember the Brandywine, and Woody End, and the Water running through the mill at Hobbiton. But I can’t see them now.
9. Sam rebukes Frodo for mentioning water. But Frodo was only describing his escapist daydreaming about the Shire! Is it Sam who picks on the water part because he is parched himself (as Frodo wasn’t in the Tower), or is water such a prominent part of the Shire’s landscape? Note that Sam is reminded of the Lady Galadriel, and Lorien is clearly a land defined by it’s rivers.
This process will get worse:
'No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.' (Mount Doom)
10. So Frodo has lost his sense of humour, his hope, and his memory of the Shire – which he had actually set out to save (as he says in ‘The Grey Havens’). What does he still have? Why is he going on?
11. Two weeks ago, when we discussed the Mouth of Sauron, Curious mentioned Frodo’s loss of memory on this journey as a process of losing identity and de-humanisation, comparable with losing his name. What do you think?
Frodo’s speaking of the torments he goes through, quench Sam’s attempt at cheerfulness.
12. Is this another of Sam’s sufferings – watching his beloved Master go to pieces?
13. How would you compare the torments Frodo and Sam go through?
Sam’s reaction to Frodo’s words is quite startling: he appeals to Lady Galadriel.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 19 2008, 12:31am
Post #2 of 11
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Sam’s fatalistic comment seems to imply he abandons all hope. After all, he is afraid of heights – as was shown in crossing the Celebrant and in the Emyn Muil. Or is he just being ironic, jesting in this desperate condition? Remember, too, Sam “would have laughed” immediately once the fall is over. What do you think?
I think Sam's so tired he's silly! Ever felt like that? I have-night shift/day time classes can = weird sense of humor.
Is this an ironic comment on the Hobbits’ dash across the bridge? Could they simply have managed to avoid this fall?
Could be-- but then they might've missed out of the drinking their fill (which they really seemed to need); getting some rest (also needed); hearing that Gollum lived (useful info) and so on.
Is Sam again making jest of his actual sufferings?
Sort of-see above.
Four months ago, when I was leading “The Black Gate is Closed”, I asked about the role of humour in Frodo’s decision to trust Gollum. Does Sam’s humour enhance his endurance? What does Frodo’s apparant lack of humour say about him at this point?
I do believe Sam's ability to crack a joke, laugh, and be silly is beneficial to him (and Frodo). As for Frodo, the Ring drains him more quickly now.
5. Is the dark here a physical torment, or does it oppress the hobbit’s spirits? Is it any different from the dark of Torech Ungol?
A psychosomatic thing...oppressing the spirit to the point that it's felt by the body.
Apart of sheer wearyness – does Sam’s dropping off serve as a further sign of hopelessness? What would be its effect on Frodo?
I saw Sam's being able to sleep as a blessing.
Does Frodo feel the Ring as a physical weight? Or does he mix the physical and spiritual burdens he is bearing?
It seems to have a real physical weight. Sam also felt this earlier.
Sam rebukes Frodo for mentioning water. But Frodo was only describing his escapist daydreaming about the Shire! Is it Sam who picks on the water part because he is parched himself (as Frodo wasn’t in the Tower), or is water such a prominent part of the Shire’s landscape? Note that Sam is reminded of the Lady Galadriel, and Lorien is clearly a land defined by it’s rivers.
I would imagine Sam is now more "in tune" with thoughts of Galadriel and Lorien since he has carried and made use of the Phial.
So Frodo has lost his sense of humour, his hope, and his memory of the Shire – which he had actually set out to save (as he says in ‘The Grey Havens’). What does he still have? Why is he going on?
He still has his *word*- that he will take the Ring to Mordor.
Two weeks ago, when we discussed the Mouth of Sauron, Curious mentioned Frodo’s loss of memory on this journey as a process of losing identity and de-humanisation, comparable with losing his name. What do you think?
He's letting go of things that are not essential to the mission.
Is this another of Sam’s sufferings – watching his beloved Master go to pieces?
Of course--it's difficult to seem someone you care about suffer.
How would you compare the torments Frodo and Sam go through?
(for the most part) Frodo suffers the bearing of the Ring and Sam is witness to this. Can't envy either's position, huh?
(This post was edited by batik on Nov 19 2008, 12:34am)
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 19 2008, 8:59am
Post #3 of 11
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This is the old thread about the role of humor in decision-making. This point specifically wasn't discussed that much.
And this is the post by Curious which refers to Frodo's loss of identity.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 19 2008, 11:43pm
Post #4 of 11
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Of all the things to say at that point: "Good-bye"! But looking at the circumstances, where they've just had two narrow escapes (avoiding a crumbling gateway and the eyes of a Nazgûl), and are in fear of imminent discovery, I think that word just "slipped" from Sam: he doesn't mean it as "this is the end for us", instead it's one of those words that blurts itself out, most likely from his Hobbit nature. In other words, he did not intend to say it, but he did.
That path to the valley! Had they managed to escape from the Tower with no warning given, they might have been able to notice it, and take advantage of it; then again, would they have been able to find the Stairs without Gollum to guide them? In the gloom of Mordor and in their haste, I think they would have missed that path, anyway.
Shagrat offering water: Sam is making a hobbity jest, but that's because he does not have the - intimate? - knowledge of Shagrat that Frodo no doubt has, having been his captive.
As for Frodo: he is the Ringbearer, and he is now in Mordor. Even were the sun shining, everything would still be dark with him. That is why, from now on, we will not see the journey through Frodo's eyes: the darkness will blind his sight, his senses, and his soul, and he will be conscious only of the weight around his neck, which is both physical (it gets heavier relative to his own physically weakening state) and psychological. The only thing he will have left is the ability to put one foot in front of the other. In a way, he is losing his "name", his identity: much as the Mouth of Sauron lost his.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 20 2008, 8:46am
Post #5 of 11
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That is why, from now on, we will not see the journey through Frodo's eyes: the darkness will blind his sight, his senses, and his soul, and he will be conscious only of the weight around his neck, which is both physical (it gets heavier relative to his own physically weakening state) and psychological. But this process has started in the Dead Marshes. Apart for cases in which he had to make a decision (Gollum's suggestion to take the Cirith Ungol way, whether to reveal the Quest to Faramir, the Forbidden Pool), and for the near collapse near Minas Morgul - we follow all the journey with Sam's eyes.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2008, 11:27pm
Post #6 of 11
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1. Sam’s fatalistic comment seems to imply he abandons all hope. After all, he is afraid of heights – as was shown in crossing the Celebrant and in the Emyn Muil. Or is he just being ironic, jesting in this desperate condition? Remember, too, Sam “would have laughed” immediately once the fall is over. What do you think?
It was a desperate gambit -- dangerous, but not suicidal.
2. Later in the chapter, Tolkien notes: “Had they known, they could have reached it (the path between the mountain-ranges) quicker, for it was a track that left the main Morgul-road at the westren bridge-end and went down by a long stair cut into the rock to the valley’s bottom”. Is this an ironic comment on the Hobbits’ dash across the bridge? Could they simply have managed to avoid this fall?
No, that's just an explanation for the path at the bottom of the valley, and the tardy pursuit.
Both were sweating. ‘If Shagrat himself was to offer me a glass of water, I’d shake his hand,’ said Sam. ‘Don’t say such things!’ said Frodo. ‘It only makes it worse.’
3. Is Sam again making jest of his actual sufferings?
Yes.
4. Four months ago, when I was leading “The Black Gate is Closed”, I asked about the role of humour in Frodo’s decision to trust Gollum. Does Sam’s humour enhance his endurance? What does Frodo’s apparant lack of humour say about him at this point?
Frodo is worse off than Sam. Sam still has a sense of humor, and a bit of hope. Frodo has lost hope, but fatalistically continues on his journey. It seems unlikely that he could have made it without Sam.
5. Is the dark here a physical torment, or does it oppress the hobbit’s spirits? Is it any different from the dark of Torech Ungol?
The dark doesn't seem quite as physical as Shelob's vomit. I think it is more of a pyschological and spiritual obstacle. Sam's sighting of a star, and later a little light, does a great deal to lift his spirits.
6. Why is this torment, alone of all their sufferings, described by it’s effect on him?
Because Frodo bears the Ring, and feels the spiritual torment more than Sam.
7. Apart of sheer wearyness – does Sam’s dropping off serve as a further sign of hopelessness? What would be its effect on Frodo?
I don't think it means Sam has lost hope at all, and I think Frodo wants Sam to get some sleep.
8. Does Frodo feel the Ring as a physical weight? Or does he mix the physical and spiritual burdens he is bearing?
The Ring does seem to physically weigh Frodo down, but that might be an illusion. Still, to Frodo it feels real enough.
9. Is it Sam who picks on the water part because he is parched himself (as Frodo wasn’t in the Tower), or is water such a prominent part of the Shire’s landscape?
Yes.
10. So Frodo has lost his sense of humour, his hope, and his memory of the Shire – which he had actually set out to save (as he says in ‘The Grey Havens’). What does he still have? Why is he going on?
Good question! Well, he still has Sam. And he has his fatalism, his belief that it is his Doom to reach Mount Doom, even if he has no idea what he will do when he get there. But for the most part, Frodo has succumbed to despair, and is marching on after giving up hope.
11. Two weeks ago, when we discussed the Mouth of Sauron, Curious mentioned Frodo’s loss of memory on this journey as a process of losing identity and de-humanisation, comparable with losing his name. What do you think?
I think Curious is right. 
12. Is this another of Sam’s sufferings – watching his beloved Master go to pieces?
Yes.
13. How would you compare the torments Frodo and Sam go through?
Frodo's torments are much worse. Sam's biggest torment is watching Frodo deteriorate.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 21 2008, 2:15am
Post #7 of 11
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But now it's complete. Frodo is within the confines of Mordor: there will soon be nothing between him and Orodruin.
I wonder how someone like, say, Boromir, would have reacted here, were he wearing the Ring. Would he sense the darkness, also, or would he be overtaken with the "illusions of grandeur"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 23 2008, 5:07am
Post #8 of 11
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Regarding the wheel of fire that Frodo is beginning to see in his mind all the time now, which image will recur (as you note) later in "Mt. Doom", Hammond and Scull have this note in their "LOTR Companion":
A great wheel of fire--This image, which recurs as Frodo nears the end of his quest, is known also in Classical and Christian mythology as a symbol of hellish torture. Perhaps its best-known expression is in the Greek myth of Ixion, who for his attempted seduction of Hera was bound everlastingly to a fiery wheel.
Or, for instance, King Lear:
You do me wrong to take me out o’ th’ grave:
Thou art a soul in bliss, but I am bound
Upon a wheel of fire, that mine own tears
Do scald like molten lead.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 23 2008, 11:01am
Post #9 of 11
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I didn't know the "wheel of fire" had such specific connotations. Now I'm wondering if there's any meaning behind the fact that Frodo only sees the wheel of fire, whereas in the other instances you cite (Ixion and King Lear) the victim feels himself bound to the wheel? It's as if Frodo sees his fate inexorably approaching - his journey is taking him to hell, and his test is to keep walking towards it, as it fills all his vision. But he's still walking. He's not there yet.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Nov 23 2008, 9:16pm
Post #10 of 11
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"I fell into a burning ring of fire..."
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You mean the image didn't originate with Johnny Cash? 
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Nov 23 2008, 9:27pm
Post #11 of 11
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Ha-Cash--a closet Tolkien fan!?!
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or maybe June wrote that one?
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