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Henoluin Elsilim
Ossiriand

Oct 19 2008, 12:22am
Post #1 of 15
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Dragon vs Balrog
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Two big, bad mosters/demons. The question is simple. If a dragon got into it with a balrog, who would win?
~ Henoluin ~
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SirDennisC
Gondolin

Oct 19 2008, 12:48am
Post #2 of 15
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is that a winged Balrog or non-winged variety?
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Oct 19 2008, 3:18am
Post #3 of 15
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See Balrog vs Smaug a few pages back.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin

Oct 19 2008, 8:00am
Post #4 of 15
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But IIRC, once a topic falls off the first page of the board, it can be made into a new post. (I'll let a mod or someone who is good at searching through rules verify that ) As for dragon vs balrog, I'd say balrog. Because they're cooler.
My LJ My art site
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Oct 19 2008, 12:16pm
Post #5 of 15
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Have at it! Didn't mean to imply that you couldn't or shouldn't. it's too bad that these don't bump when replied to.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin

Oct 19 2008, 6:18pm
Post #7 of 15
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in this most unlikely of battles, given their primary attacks are fire and both are impervious to said fire, it appears at first blush to be a draw. Balrog's nature protects him from sword, tooth and claw... he can only be hurt by magic it seems. The dragon is flesh and blood but may have protection from all but blessed weapons... I suppose the dragon might loose his head if the balrog could get close enough to grapple with him though. Hmmm 2/3 in favour of balrog.
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Ernildhir
Ossiriand

Oct 28 2008, 5:01pm
Post #10 of 15
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I think it depends on the dragon...
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A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head....There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor any fair thing in all their gear and harness: nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star.
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Sandyman
Lindon

Dec 6 2008, 4:33am
Post #11 of 15
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A dragon would totally win in my opinion. They can fly, which the balrog apparently can't, even though it has wings. (If it could fly it wouldn't have fallen :-)) Dragons also have their teeth and claws and possibly spikes and powerful tails to attack the balrog with, whereas the balrog doesn't have any of that. I may be a little prejudiced, though, because I'm a crazy dragon fanatic. :-D
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Cegwyn
Nevrast
Jan 24 2009, 5:52am
Post #12 of 15
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I've always loved the balrog. One of the coolest creatures in middle-earth imo. I think it would be pretty evenly matched, though. Even if the balrog can't fly, it is a powerful demon. One jab in the gut with a fire sword and the dragon would be done.
You are most like Aragorn. You have strong convictions and you stick to them. Although you are more of a recluse, you are extremely loyal to the few friends that you have. You are very serious about things, but you like having fun. Fame and fortune mean little to you, and you aren't concerned with being popular. Good for you!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 13 2009, 5:58am
Post #13 of 15
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That the dragon & balrog would decide to go out together instead to plunder & kill, then talk about the good old days in Angband while dining over a few well-done fair maidens......
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Padster
Nevrast

Feb 18 2009, 5:12pm
Post #14 of 15
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Dragon wins, so long as its one of the big ones...
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One can only assume that we are talking about one of the MIGHTY dragons rather than some nancy worm from the Grey Mountains. If so, let’s consider some of the things about dragons and balrogs as they relate to other beings to try and guess how a fight between these two fearsome beast would turn out. But just to be clear from the outset, dragon’s a FAR MORE than mere beasts. In the tale of the Children of Hurin, it clearly states that Glaurung was “possessed” of the “spirit of Morgoth”. Considering them merely flesh and blood is not giving them the importance Mr T and Morogth CLEARLY placed in them. Gandalf's comments on Smaug and countering the dwarves view of making a frontal assault (if I remember right): “That would be no good,” said the wizard, “not without a mighty Warrior, even a Hero. I tried to find one; but warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce, or simply lot to be found...” Now Gandalf KNEW loads of stuff, and certainly would have know what it would have taken to take down Smaug mono-e-mono. And he SEEMED to think that a mighty warrior COULD do it. But who? Smaug’s death at Bard’s hands was a fluke, and an attack made from a distance, so Bard was in no direct peril from being barbecued. Glaurung was similarly slain in circumstances that did not involve a frontal assault. Turin sneaked up on him and stabbed him in the belly. The one time that Turin DID face Glaurung up front and personal, he was totally under the dragon’s spell. OK because he LOOKED into the drakes eyes. Who knows what may have happened had Turin held of looking and kept on fighting - I think Turin would have died however. Earendil’s slaying of Ancalagon was basically the same as Bard’s slaying of Smaug, i.e.: from a distance without any personal danger, or risk of retaliation. When Glaurung was young, again it was distance shots and lots of them, that drove him off: ...Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen. Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years. Fingon won great praise, and the Noldor rejoiced; for few foresaw the full meaning and threat of this new thing. But Morgoth was ill-pleased that Glaurung had disclosed himself over-soon; and after his defeat there was the Long Peace of wellnigh two hundred years... Dragon’s were clearly independent and intelligent beings, as Glaurung proves in spades as he masterminded the ongoing destruction of Beleriand after the Fifth Battle. Glaurung’s full strength is realised when in The Fifth Battle, he wups the Eldar and Men, splitting the hosts of Fingon and Maedhros seemingly single handed. The paragraph mentions Balrogs at the same time, but it is the terror and strength of Glaurung that Mr T focuses on: There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart. One occasion where one of the free people’s faces a dragon mono-e-mono is where Azaghâl faces Glaurung during The Fifth Battle, which is a real DO OR DIE moment for the free peoples: Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. So it seems to me that anyone in the business of killing dragons, knew not to face them up close and personal, otherwise they died. What about Balrog’s? Mr T envisaged lots of Balrogs in the early days: In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. But he finally settled on the numbers 3 or 7 and as their number shrunk so their individual power grew. There is simply loads of occasions, in comparison, where mighty warriors face up to a Balrog and make a good account of themselves. Indeed Fëanor shows that he can last, for a while at least, against SEVERAL Balrogs, or at least that is how it COULD be interpreted: Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs... Fëanor was surrounded, and the fact that he was wrapped in flames, suggests that maybe more than one Balrog was present at Fëanor’s defeat. Maybe this would have changed if Mr T had re-written with the more powerful Balrogs in mind, and maybe not. Also Fingon was having a good time with Gothmog, until ANOTHER Balrog came up behind and stopped the fight, allowing Gothmog to strike him down: At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Finally it is well know that both Glorfindel and Ecthelion slew Balrogs unaided. Glorfindel’s at least MUST have been achieved without any other intervention of others as it was in a high mountain pass where it would have been difficult to receive aid and they were running anyway. Whereas Ecthelion’s fight could conceivably have been aided by missile fire from friendly forces given he fought Gothmog in the middle of Gondolin. I don’t know where people get the idea that Balrogs could only be hurt by magic? Probably from the time where Gandalf supposedly dropped a mountain on one in Balin’s chamber, but who is to say the Balrog didn’t escape the room before the ceiling gave way? That Balrog’s could only be harmed by magic is not realistic......OK it’s a bit strange to be using the term realistic in this context, but bear with me. To a peasant with a pitchfork, and knight in plate armour would be invulnerable. Give the peasant a gun and the knight is one dead sucker. Dress the knight in ballistic armour and he becomes, again, pretty much invulnerable to our gun swinging peasant, until the peasant gets hold of the nearest heavy calibre machine gun and uses the knights rapidly disappearing butt for target practice. Put the knight in a tank and the peasant is toast, until he lays his hands on his local A10 Tank Buster (and obviously learns to pilot it). The point is, it’s simply a matter of scale and power, and it doesn’t take magic. Magic really is just an illusion, and I think Mr T was going down these lines with his numerous references to Elven magic, not being ‘magic’, even though it seems like it to the ignorant and uninformed. Certainly Mr T sought for scientific explanations for his mythology as time passed in his life and we began to understand much more about our own world and how it came to be. The fact is Balrog’s COULD be hurt by mundane things such as swords, even if those blades were posies of something we like to call magic. Balrog’s WERE hurt, by blades and magical power, just like Dragons. The deaths of three Balrog’s, including the Lord of Balrog’s Gothmog, at the hands of Eldar Lords and Gandalf is evidence enough for that. I think Balrog’s were among Morgoth’s mightiest servants, as much as anyone does. But dragon’s were too, and there is plenty, that is to say PLENTY of evidence to suggest that the mightiest dragons were a match for a Balrog. If we are talking your run of the mill dragon, then I think one has to assume that a Balrog, often described as the mightiest of Melkor’s servants, would win. However, if we are talking one of the MIGHTY dragons, i.e.: Ancalagon, Glaurung and probably Smaug, then I would say the dragon gets the win. Cheers Padster PS: Balrog DO have wings and they CAN fly! ;-)
(This post was edited by Padster on Feb 18 2009, 5:17pm)
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