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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Oct 15 2008, 11:36pm
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The Pyre of Denethor 3: Vision
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Vision is another important image in this chapter. However, the chapter begins with the language of sounds and hearing. In the first paragraph, Pippin hears the horns of Rohan and feels the joy they bring. Gandalf hears “the gathering sound of battle” and wants to ride out to the fight. As Pippin and Gandalf ride through the streets of Minas Tirith, “the noise of war rose behind them,” and “captains were shouting.” As they pass into the Silent Street, there is one final noise: the fight of Beregond against Denethor’s men. Other than the argument between Gandalf and Denethor, there is no further significant sound until the Tomb of the Stewards is destroyed with “a great noise.” They also hear the death-cry of the Witch-king. But in the rest of the chapter, the dominant language is of vision or seeing.
Comment on this usage of sound for the battle, but sight for Denethor’s death scene.
I’m going to offer a series of quotes from this chapter, followed by questions, because I couldn’t sufficiently untangle the ideas connecting these moments.
Denethor, raising the palantir, the Seeing Stone, challenges Gandalf: “Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool.”
Gandalf talks later about Denethor’s use of the palantir. “I fear that as the peril of his realm grew he looked in the Stone and was deceived….He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless, often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind.”
After Denethor’s death, Gandalf stands on the walls near the Houses of Healing, looking at the battlefield. “And he beheld with the sight that was given to him all that had befallen.” He is apparently aware in this moment of the death of Theoden, of Eowyn’s battle with the Witch-king, and probably of Aragorn’s arrival.
Gandalf accuses Denethor’s men of being “blind in your obedience.”
Discuss the idea of blindness in this chapter.
What do you think Denethor’s last vision in the palantir was? Was it the Black Ships? The armies of Mordor? Or was it, as Tom Shippey claims, Frodo captured in the Tower of Cirith Ungol? If it was one of the first two on this list, why do the overwhelming odds drive Denethor into his final despair? If it was Frodo, how come Tolkien never actually says this? It wouldn’t destroy the suspense; we know Frodo has been captured.
Discuss Sauron’s use of vision as a weapon. (And isn’t it interesting that Sauron is the Great Eye?)
Compare and contrast the various uses of palantiri (Saruman’s, Pippin’s, Aragorn’s, Denethor’s, Sauron’s) throughout the novel. How do these compare with the use of Galadriel’s Mirror?
Was Gandalf’s vision of the battle a mystical vision? Who or what gave it to him? How does this contrast with Denethor’s vision in the palantir?
What constitutes true or good vision in the novel? How does one obtain true vision? Or is it the interpretation of vision that is good or bad? (Random connection, probably not deliberately related, but possibly relevant: within the same 24 hours that this chapter occurs, Sam in the Tower invokes Elbereth as “palan-diriel,” “gazing afar”.)
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Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Lindon
Oct 16 2008, 12:34am
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I don't know about what Tom Shippey thinks, but it seems to me that it is quite obvious that Denethor, when he last looked into the palantir, saw the black ships and the armies of Mordor. That's what Tolkien seems to say. I suppose, though, that he might have seen Frodo.
The Dark fire will NOT avail you, so you might as well give up, Flame of Udun!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Oct 16 2008, 2:15am
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of Frodo's capture by this time. If he had, he would surely realize that the Ring was in Mordor and not in Minas Tirith, and his struggle would have changed suddenly and dramatically.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Oct 16 2008, 4:04am
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not really an answer but more questions
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Discuss Sauron’s use of vision as a weapon. (And isn’t it interesting that Sauron is the Great Eye?)
That brings to mind some commonly used terms/phrases like "I'd have to see it to believe it"; "Well, I saw it with my own eyes"; "eye witness account"; "that's like the blind leading the blind"; "are you blind". Seems as if each places value on *vision*. Is more value placed on sight than the other senses? Would this be true in both RL and M-E? If so, is it possible Sauron plays on this--that he uses an apparent reliance on this sense (above all others) to corrupt/undermine others?
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Oct 16 2008, 4:15am
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Seems like this comes up often...
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Did Denethor see Frodo?
From my reading of this--Denethor made some reference to knowing or seeing more at some point prior to his *full* disclosure here, didn't he? Only now does he give any details. All the details? We don't know. But I am of the mind that if he did see Frodo he would have said so...my goodness, that would have really knocked Gandalf for a loop, wouldn't it? And Denethor did seem to be trying to spread the despair, right?
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 16 2008, 6:47am
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Denethor and Tolkien are nothing if not subtle.
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The night he was using the Palantir, desperate for news and frantic with grief over Faramir's condition, *was* the night Frodo was in captivity. Tolkien carefully arranged it that way, making (according to HoME) several adjustments in the timeline to achieve this. Every one of Denethor's despairing remarks is consistent with knowing that Frodo (and, it's only natural to presume, the Ring) are captured -- falling just short of actually saying so.
Denethor is 'round the bend, and hates Gandalf anyway. He has no motivation to pass along important intelligence. He's just taking personal satisfaction in gloating.
You're quite right, Gandalf would indeed have been knocked for a loop if Denethor had spelled it out. I wonder what would have changed.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 16 2008, 6:49am)
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