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squire
Gondolin
Sep 13 2008, 10:20pm
Post #1 of 7
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**The Passing of the Grey Company** - Then she fell on her knees, saying: ‘I beg thee!’
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At dawn the next day the Rangers saddle up. Just before they ride off, Eowyn appears again with a farewell cup of cheer. But she is “clad as a Rider and girt with a sword.” Aragorn toasts her, throwing in every mention he can think of about her family, her responsibilities, and his hope of final victory.
A. Is Eowyn clad in her own Rider clothes and sword, or did she borrow them from someone? How does this tie into her claim to be a “shieldmaiden”?
B. How or why does this scene recapitulate the scene where Eowyn first met Aragorn?
But tears are running down Eowyn’s face, which embarrasses Gimli and Legolas because Eowyn is usually so severe. She asks Aragorn once again if she can ride with him, and he refuses, citing his lack of permission from the King and from her brother Eomer. She falls on her knees and begs him, out loud, in front of all the Rangers! He still says “nay” and pulls her up off her knees, kissing her hand. He leaps into the saddle and rides off, never looking back.
…only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.
C. Another great Eowyn moment! How much can one humiliate oneself for love – or is this just depression speaking?
D. Why did Aragorn not use the “I need your men’s permission for you to come with me” argument the night before?
E. Since Aragorn is famous for being fairly grim and serious of aspect, how exactly does he express his pain as he rides away?
F. Is that manly thing, “I show no emotions but I bleed inside” good enough? Why can’t Aragorn weep a little here?
We leave Eowyn paralyzed, hands clenched at her sides as they ride off towards the Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain – then she stumbles, blinded with tears, to her “lodging”. But none of the Rohirrim witness this, because they are in hiding from fear of what Aragorn is doing. Some say:
‘They are Elvish wights. Let them go where they belong, into the dark places, and never return. The times are evil enough.’
G. What kind of hospitality is that by the Rohirrim in Dunharrow, to let the guests get up in the morning and leave without any help putting supplies together, a little breakfast, etc.? Weren’t the Rangers at least given servants to help put them up in their booths for the night?
H. What are the roots of the name “Dwimorberg”? Does it relate to the Rohirric phrases “dwimmer-crafty” and “foul dwimmerlaik”?
I. What does it mean that the Rohirrim associate the Rangers with the Elves, and then consign them to “the dark places”?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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a.s.
Doriath
Sep 14 2008, 12:55am
Post #2 of 7
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"A horrible combination, lust and despair"
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That's what I said the last time we discussed this chapter. I don't think Eowyn is depressed per se; I think it's worse than depression. Eowyn is in despair.
Eowyn is the most fully human woman character in LOTR. We had some interesting discussion about this part of the chapter last time; I stand by my assertion that Eowyn:
"...is much more believable to me, as a woman, than the few other examples of women in LOTR, all of whom are unrealistic goddesses or saints. Eowyn is human, and what she is doing at this moment is grovelling, and beneath her dignity, and she should suck it up and go on and do what she needs to do for her people. But she doesn't do that; she is going to sneak off in defiance of Aragorn and Theoden, risking her people's safety...She is, in short, a lot like some of us at times of despair."
A. Is Eowyn clad in her own Rider clothes and sword, or did she borrow them from someone? How does this tie into her claim to be a “shieldmaiden”?
Well, she says "I can ride and wield blade" and this leads me to believe she has been instructed in these things. She probably has her own personal sword and etc, and as far as being "dressed like a Rider", she has probably gotten what she needed from the stores in the House of Eorl. A combination, then, of "her own" warrior garb and that of her House.
As far as being a "shieldmaiden", since I don't really know much about Norse folklore I don't like to pretend I really know what a "shieldmaiden" is. I believe, though, that a shieldmaiden was a virgin who chooses (or is chosen?) to go into armed battle as part of the battle force (not simply, say, a woman armed to fight defensively when her home is attacked, etc). Since she's using this word, I assume Rohan has this concept and Eowyn has had training in arms and riding and defense, etc, just like all the other Riders.
It must really chafe at her, then, to be denied what seems to be a culturally acceptable and honorable thing for a noble virgin woman to do: go into armed battle.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
Call Her Emily
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squire
Gondolin
Sep 14 2008, 1:31am
Post #3 of 7
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Do you think virginity is a major component, then?
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I hadn't really explored that, but if you are right about the Norse shieldmaiden thing, it does answer some questions. After all, I suppose at age 24 Eowyn should long ago have been married in a culture like the Rohirrim's. We can speculate about the reasons for her unmarried state, as Dreamdeer has done so effectively regarding Grima's plotting. I feel there's a kind of imbalance in Eowyn, within her culture, that we tend to ignore because in our modern era we are so much more ready to accept and cheer on a young woman who chooses not to marry and has urges to express her independence and personal spirit. Does she cling to a dream of fighting and "renown" because she is not married - or is she not married because she wants to cling to her shieldmaiden status?
I find Tolkien's lack of interest in Eowyn's social context more and more disturbing the more I think about it. Either there are other shieldmaidens in Rohan - trained and armed for active battle - or there aren't. If not, why not? If so, where the heck are they, for Eowyn to draw support from? Is she a freak, or a minority in her society?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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a.s.
Doriath
Sep 14 2008, 2:04am
Post #4 of 7
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perhaps she has clothed herself in virginity as a defensive weapon?
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Does she cling to a dream of fighting and "renown" because she is not married - or is she not married because she wants to cling to her shieldmaiden status?
Is she a freak, or a minority in her society?
I don't know how much this is "reading into" the text (oh heck, when has that ever stopped me?), and I'm sincere in my disavowal of knowing anything about Norse mythology except what I've read pertaining to LOTR analysis and criticism.
So I'm not sure how "freakish" her state is, in Rohan or in, say, a Norse legend. But I do think we have to look at Eowyn's claim to be a "shieldmaiden" as meaning there is such a thing as a shieldmaiden, at least the concept of such a thing, in Rohan. And so there must be others who have also chosen to be shieldmaidens, although we don't know how many this may be. Perhaps someone can explain how common or uncommon such a thing was: were there lots of shieldmaidens, or were they rare? Could one choose to be a shieldmaiden, or was this always a choice made for a woman by someone else?
If virginity was a requirement for being a shieldmaiden (and someone better confirm that, someone who knows Norse mythology!!) then there is a reason right there for Eowyn to choose to be a shieldmaiden: she had to keep herself safe from Wormtongue. I really think, based on Tolkien's description of the household during Wormtongue's reign there, that it was pretty clear what he was working toward and Eowyn may have felt she was cornered, trapped, unless she found some way to avoid marriage (consensual or forced) with Grima. If shieldmaiden implies a known virginal state (I mean, if it's a requirement for being a shieldmaiden) then that would grant her safety: "I can't do that, I am going to be a shieldmaiden!".
I think Tolkien is working something out here, about a woman's "place". He admires the old Norse stories and so, of course, they included shieldmaidens and he must see that some women had this role. It's honorable, but it works out that Eowyn doesn't find true happiness until she relinquishes this role explicitly (in Houses of Healing). By connecting this desire to be a shieldmaiden with despair and desperation and loss of choice (or what she perceives as loss of choice) and true happiness with her decision to marry and be a healer, Tolkien sort of plays his hand for us to see pretty clearly.
Or does in my opinion.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
Call Her Emily
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Sep 14 2008, 5:02pm
Post #5 of 7
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There is a rather strange coincidence....
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if coincidence it be.
While reading "The Greatest Warriors of Celtic Myths" in the September/October 2007 issue of The Highlander, a name jumped out at me: "Scáthach or Skatha, the Shadowy One".
The article, of course, was not referring to Tolkien's Scatha the Worm, but to the great warrior princess and the Isle of Skye ( "Eilean Sgiathanach or the Winged Isle", though it is also known as "Eilean a' Cheò or the Isle of Mist" and Land of Clouds to the Vikings) named after her. Sometimes her duties are "similar to the Valkerie of the Norse legends", but she has other duties as well:
It was supposedly on this magical island that the great legendary warrior princess had her training camp for young male warriors. Certainly real female warriors existed, and it was customary for them to train young men in the arts of war. Indeed, there was a strongly held belief among the Celts that women could train men most effectively for battle.
I will admit that this particular princess is no shieldmaiden, however. *ahem*
She trains the great Cúchulainn, but also presents him with some magical arms. No "small but cunningly wrought" horn, though, just Gae Bulga (a spear) & Gae Bolg ("belly spear") and the sword Caladin...and the gift of prophecy.
Perhaps the shieldmaidens of the Rohirrim are primarily trainers unless called into battle by necessity? Is that Tolkien I see rolling over in his grave at the mere suggestion of a Celtic comparison...? =)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Sep 15 2008, 5:10am
Post #6 of 7
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Tolkien's hand, as you put it, does not necessarily tip towards women staying in her place. Eowyn does not make the decision to go backwards when she leaves her warrior role behind, but forwards. She takes what she used to be to a higher, more respected level. She goes from being an informal nurse to choosing to study medicine on a professional level. She will nurture rather than slay--but in a way that earns respect. More importantly, she's doing it only because she wants to, not because she has to. Nobody told her what to do this time. She's through with having other people make her decisions for her.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 12 2008, 4:01am
Post #7 of 7
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A. Is Eowyn clad in her own Rider clothes and sword, or did she borrow them from someone?
They are her own.
How does this tie into her claim to be a “shieldmaiden”?
She has her own gear.
B. How or why does this scene recapitulate the scene where Eowyn first met Aragorn?
I don't have the text handy, so I'll pass.
C. Another great Eowyn moment! How much can one humiliate oneself for love – or is this just depression speaking?
As I said before, and others have said, it's not clinical depression, it's despair mixed with the "noble northern spirit" which prefers death in battle to any other kind of death. It's despair, though, because she's quite sure she must die one way or another, and really wants to choose the manner of her death.
D. Why did Aragorn not use the “I need your men’s permission for you to come with me” argument the night before?
Because she might have gotten their permission? He also would need the king's permission, plus if he brings her with him it might look bad unless they were betrothed. There are social conventions involved.
E. Since Aragorn is famous for being fairly grim and serious of aspect, how exactly does he express his pain as he rides away?
Perhaps the corners of his eyes are wet, or his lip trembles a bit. Maybe he has a nervous tic or "tell" his friends recognize, like biting his lip or pulling his ear. He might even shed tears -- and that might account for his quick departure.
F. Is that manly thing, “I show no emotions but I bleed inside” good enough? Why can’t Aragorn weep a little here?
Maybe he does, which is why he rides off so quickly.
G. What kind of hospitality is that by the Rohirrim in Dunharrow, to let the guests get up in the morning and leave without any help putting supplies together, a little breakfast, etc.? Weren’t the Rangers at least given servants to help put them up in their booths for the night?
I think they were given service, but only because Eowyn ordered it. These are not the people who fought at Helm's Deep. All they know is that these strange people are stirring up the Dead, and they want to be rid of them.
H. What are the roots of the name “Dwimorberg”? Does it relate to the Rohirric phrases “dwimmer-crafty” and “foul dwimmerlaik”?
It sure sounds like it.
I. What does it mean that the Rohirrim associate the Rangers with the Elves, and then consign them to “the dark places”?
Well, three of them are elves, and one is a half-elf, so that's actually pretty perceptive. What's interesting to me is that they associate elves with wights, and call the Rangers elvish wights. I'm not aware of any elvish wights in Tolkien's tales, so perhaps they think they are elvish because they have three elves and a half elf and elvish equipment, and wights because they are not afraid of the Dead. Or perhaps there is a connection between elves and wights -- both, to some extent, inhabit the spirit plane. Elves who fade may turn into something very like wights.
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