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sador
Gondolin
Jul 11 2008, 9:51am
Post #1 of 7
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The Black Gate is Closed, IX - "Not nice hobbit, not sensible"
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As mentioned above, we hardly get to see the workings of Frodo’s mind in books IV and VI. Unlike the movies, which took the Frodo the-Ring-junkie approach, the book leaves us to imagine the worse, to blissfully ignore the warning signs, or to mantain our belief in his inherent purity, which will carry him through all the trials and temptations – we see him mostly through the eyes of Sam, who keeps within the pale of the two latter alternatives.
So now it’s time to discuss the third member of the trio – the one who asks the questions (of Gollum), and effectively ‘reports’ the story.
Let’s begin with Sam’s reaction to the threat scene:
1. Sam looks at Frodo with both surprise and approval. What does that say about Sam – as a servant, and morally?
Before, while Frodo caught Gollum in his slip, Sam was pondering the guide’s actual offer, and considering it in view of the interior conversation he overheard: “Sam’s guess was that the Smeagol and Gollum halves (or what in his own mind he called Slinker and Stinker) had made a truce and temporarily alliance... Whether there really was another way into Mordor Sam doubted.”
2. Doesn’t Sam seem to be wrong here about both Frodo and Gollum?
3. One point which has always disturbed me – why did Sam keep the debate he overheard secret from Frodo? Or didn't he?
Tolkien seems to make fun of Sam, describing him with a nearly condescending irony – in fact, quite like he treated Bilbo in The Hobbit. Even “Sam’s slow but shrewd mind” is not exactly an expression of respect, and “Gollum in his own way, and with much more excuse as his acquaintance was much briefer, may have made a similar mistake” is another piece of comedy at Sam’s expense.
But the comedy is because Sam tries to reason out Gollum’s motives, and then interrogate him. Sam’s head is nowhere as good as his heart – consider Faramir’s “your heart is shrewd as well as faithful, and saw clearer than you eyes” (‘The Window on the West’), and his own inner voice (the Gaffer’s? I can’t wait to see what Dreamdeer will make of it!) in Shelob’s lair: “You fool, he isn’t dead, and your heart knew it. Don’t trust your head, Samwise, it’s not the best part of you. The trouble with you is that you never really had any hope.”
Wait a moment! “Never really had any hope”? We thought Sam was hope embodied! But, earlier in this chapter: “After all, he never had any real hope in the affair from the beginning, but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.”
4. In ‘The End of the Third Age’ Sam is renamed “Hope Unquenchable” by Gandalf. Did Tolkien change his mind about Sam, or does Gandalf mean a deeper kind of hope than the one Sam professes to not having?
5. How does he keep his cheer, and postpone despair?
The comparison of Sam to Bilbo in The Hobbit goes far. Consider both their fascinations with Elves (“He loved elves, though he seldom met them” – ‘A Short Rest’). Both profess to cooking well – Sam next chapter, and Bilbo in ‘Roast Mutton’. Both have a childlike curiousity – as Sam shows here, with his excitement about the swertings and oliphaunts.
Another case is the affinity with Gollum. “There was a great deal in the background of their minds and memories that was very similar... Think of the the riddles they both knew, for one thing.” as Gandalf said in ‘The Shadow of the Past’.
6. Isn’t the Oliphaunt rhyme just such a riddle? It is clearly similar to the full version of the Fish riddle given last chapter!
Stopping and thinking about this comparison – after all, Bilbo knew of Oliphaunts (see ‘Many Partings’), and Gollum didn’t. Didn’t Bilbo miss a chance to win the riddle-game fair and square, without reverting to ordinary questions?
7. Does this affinity help Sam understand Gollum’s intentions, or does it hinder him?
8. Could it be the reason for Sam’s suspicion and resentment towards Gollum – in a way that Sam wouldn’t feel towards a fallen person of a different race?
9. Considering all that was said in the last three threads – what could be the reasons for the shift in the point of view from Frodo’s to Sam’s?
Before finishing this thread, I must mention that the shift is incomplete – we still do not fully enter Sam’s heart. Not until ‘Mount Doom’ do we hear of Rosie Cotton.
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jul 11 2008, 4:17pm
Post #2 of 7
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The quest of Frodo and, by extension, Sam, is, quite frankly, impossible, by any rational measure. It is almost miraculous that they made it even this far. It is "a fool's hope" that makes them go on. Nonetheless, Frodo feels that he will do what he must to make the quest succeed, or die trying. Sam, although this wasn't his quest to begin with, feels that he has to do what he can to help Frodo succeed, even if in the end he knows it to be futile.
In many ways, LotR is a book about what happens when people lose all hope, and how they react to it. The heroes in the story keep on doing what they believe is right even believing that they will fail: Frodo and Sam keep on going as if there is hope, and ultimately succeed, miraculously, because of it. Théoden and Éomer lead desperate charges against unbeatable enemies, determined to go down fighting. Gandalf rallies all that he can to stand out as long as he can. Aragorn desperately marches into the halls of the Dead to ask them for their assistance. Even Boromir does what he does acting on a fool's hope, trying to do what is right - and his 'redemption' in the end is the result. The point is, even though they have lost hope, they don't give up.
Denethor, by contrast, commits a horrible suicide and tries to take Faramir with him, and Saruman even defects to the other side!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 11 2008, 4:40pm
Post #3 of 7
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Eowyn also fits your premise of people without hope. She wanted to die. But instead of slitting her wrists like a silly little girl, she rides off into battle, hoping at least to accomplish something by her death.
And then there's Faramir. His loss of hope has to do with ever pleasing his father. Yet he rides to Osgiliath anyway, knowing that it won't do any good.
Even Lobelia made what could easily have been a brave last stand. She knew darn well that an elderly hobbit with an umbrella was no match for a bunch of big, hulking, human thugs, but she didn't let that stop her.
This attitude is romanticism, an alternative to the dichotomy of optimism or pessimism. The romantic commits to doing whatever is most noble, regardless of the probable outcome. It all boils down to how you want to spend your last minutes on earth--cowering and hating yourself, or dying with self respect? Once it comes down to that, it doesn't matter if you would live years later as a coward.
(And maybe, just maybe the horse will learn to talk...but that's a different thread.)
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 11 2008, 5:14pm
Post #4 of 7
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Even Boromir does what he does acting on a fool's hope, trying to do what is right - and his 'redemption' in the end is the result. The point is, even though they have lost hope, they don't give up.
When Boromir tries to take the Ring he is not "trying to do what is right," although he tries to convince himself otherwise. When Boromir tries to take the Ring he has succumbed to despair, just as Saruman and Denethor did, although he is saved in the end. In Tolkien's world, to resort to evil in order to defeat evil means that one way or another, evil wins. For a while, Boromir gives up, and gives in to despair. However, fortunately for him, Boromir does not take the Ring, nor does he commit any other mortal sin, and therefore he is given a second chance, and redeems himself with his final sacrifice.
I generally agree, though, that Tolkien's heroes each confront despair, with the possible exception of Pippin, as we have discussed before.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 11 2008, 5:15pm)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 11 2008, 7:05pm
Post #5 of 7
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Servants in literature tends to be far more practical and sensible than their masters, though less idealistic and intellectual. They "make the world go round" while their masters ponder higher strategies, art, etc. Sam is right in this mold, along with Figaro and others, even the caricature Sancho Panza (whose master was equally a caricature master).
1. Sam looks at Frodo with both surprise and approval. What does that say about Sam – as a servant, and morally?
Sam fully trusts Frodo to understand the goal of the quest, but also understands that it's his role to enable it to progress day-to-day. Gollum is, as we've discussed, both a rival to Sam and a threat to his master, and Sam fears that Frodo is too idealistic to perceive the threat. So Frodo's stern reaction here is reassuring.
3. One point which has always disturbed me – why did Sam keep the debate he overheard secret from Frodo? Or didn't he?
He did. Gossip in the servants' hall, of which this is the equivalent, is never reported to the masters. If the good servant hears something that is adverse to the master, he may be on guard against it, or even take preventive steps, but will never report it.
4. In ‘The End of the Third Age’ Sam is renamed “Hope Unquenchable” by Gandalf. Did Tolkien change his mind about Sam, or does Gandalf mean a deeper kind of hope than the one Sam professes to not having?
5. How does he keep his cheer, and postpone despair?
There are different kinds of hope. Neither Frodo nor Sam seriously entertained hope of completing the quest and going home again (although Sam's practical vision did retain some pretense of preparing for a return journey). But they maintained hope of getting through another day, walking another league, and avoiding disaster one more time. That's what kept them going. As the practical servant, Sam focused on getting through the day, while Frodo was more focused on finding a strategy for getting closer to the goal, at least until Cirith Ungol. After that, it fell to Sam to take on the strategic planning as well as the hour-to-hour effort to stay alive. It was the necessity for assuming this level of responsibility that ultimately lifted Sam from his lifelong role as the Good Servant and led to his later life as Mayor.
8. Could it be the reason for Sam’s suspicion and resentment towards Gollum – in a way that Sam wouldn’t feel towards a fallen person of a different race?
The fact that Gollum was a vestige of a similar creature to Sam certainly exacerbated Sam's dislike and distrust. When we see people who embody traits that we dislike or suppress in ourselves, we react strongly against them. It's a very different sort of dislike from the distrust of the genuinely strange or alien.
Sunset, July 3, 2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 11 2008, 8:29pm
Post #6 of 7
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I've had a go at them all. Whew!
1. Sam looks at Frodo with both surprise and approval. What does that say about Sam – as a servant, and morally?
To me it says that Sam has an independent mind. He doesn't presume to make decisions for Frodo, but he reserves the right to keep his own counsel, and to have his own opinions on what Frodo chooses to do. (We learn in The Breaking of the Fellowship, in fact, that Sam takes it upon himself to watch not only what Frodo does but what others do in relation to Frodo, and to make his own decisions based on his observations.)
2. Doesn’t Sam seem to be wrong here about both Frodo and Gollum?
I've always read this scene with the view that Sam is essentially right about them both - that he is in fact standing in for us, and letting us see the way things are through his eyes. Frodo's warning (rather than threat, as I read it) was justified - and in fact is only fair to Gollum, since Frodo is simply warning him about the power of the Ring that he (Gollum) has now bound himself to through his oath. And I also think that Sam is right that "Slinker and Stinker" are acting together at this point, because, as Sam says, they both want to keep Frodo in sight as long as possible, in hopes of getting the Ring. "Slinker" hopes that Frodo will kindly give it to him ("Yes, yes, master: give it back, eh? Sméagol will keep it safe; he will do lots of good, especially to nice hobbits...."). "Stinker" has plans for Cirith Ungol. But the chief thing at the moment is not to let Frodo try to enter Mordor through the Black Gate, and leave Gollum behind.
3. One point which has always disturbed me – why did Sam keep the debate he overheard secret from Frodo? Or didn't he?
Sam's not a "sneak" (in English children's slang, a "snitch"), as Gollum will turn out to be. He keeps this information to himself, although of course he doesn't hide the fact that he doesn't trust Gollum. I suppose though that it's quite likely that the memory of this dangerous debate is what makes Sam so hasty when he wakes up on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol to see Gollum "pawing" at Frodo again.
Tolkien seems to make fun of Sam, describing him with a nearly condescending irony – in fact, quite like he treated Bilbo in The Hobbit.
Both Bilbo and Sam are the "point of view" characters - they are seeing, and essentially telling, the story themselves, with self-deprecation. In FotR, when Frodo is the "point of view" character, he often comes off as seeming rather foolish too.
Even “Sam’s slow but shrewd mind” is not exactly an expression of respect
I don't think 'slow' is necessarily a bad thing, and 'shrewd' is actually a compliment! Sam is a typical, common-sense, servant, and in stories they usually turn out to be right in the end, even if they can't keep up intellectually with their betters!
...and “Gollum in his own way, and with much more excuse as his acquaintance was much briefer, may have made a similar mistake” is another piece of comedy at Sam’s expense.
Well, it's told in a humorous way, but the point is serious - Sam has served Frodo all his life, and has never heard a harsh word from his lips. Tells you a lot about Frodo's kindness - and a lot about Sam's loyalty, in that he's apparently never given cause for a harsh word, since we now find out that Frodo was quite capable of it all along!
4. In ‘The End of the Third Age’ Sam is renamed “Hope Unquenchable” by Gandalf. Did Tolkien change his mind about Sam, or does Gandalf mean a deeper kind of hope than the one Sam professes to not having?
I think the latter. Sam temporarily loses hope several times, but he never gives up.
5. How does he keep his cheer, and postpone despair?
He has a job to do, and he intends to do it. There's nothing like having a goal to keep you moving. And he gets a lot of inspiration from songs and stories - even the comic rhyme of the Oliphaunt is enough to lift the spirits of both hobbits.
6. Isn’t the Oliphaunt rhyme just such a riddle? It is clearly similar to the full version of the Fish riddle given last chapter!
It does have the form of a riddle, now you mention it. Good point that Bilbo could have beaten Gollum with this one!
7. Does this affinity help Sam understand Gollum’s intentions, or does it hinder him?
I think Sam understands Gollum's intentions very well. So does Frodo, I think, but he chooses to give Gollum every benefit of the doubt. He knows that Gollum may betray him, even as he accepts him as his guide. But he at least has one extra understanding of Gollum that Sam doesn't have - he understands the power of the Ring over Gollum, and knows that he will be afraid to break his oath lightly.
8. Could it be the reason for Sam’s suspicion and resentment towards Gollum – in a way that Sam wouldn’t feel towards a fallen person of a different race?
I think the suspicion is quite simply based on Sam's accurate perception of the danger Gollum poses. But there's a give and take between Sam and Gollum - in the oliphaunt discussion here, in the coney scene, and later on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol when Sam asks Gollum whether he wants to be the hero or the villain of their tale - that shows how the two of them come from a similar place and understand each other.
9. Considering all that was said in the last three threads – what could be the reasons for the shift in the point of view from Frodo’s to Sam’s?
As the Ring affects Frodo more and more, his thinking becomes distant from us. We watch with Sam, trying to understand what's going through his mind, but really unable to imagine what effect the Ring is having. If Frodo and Sam were the source of this story, writing their recollections in the Red Book, then this would be a part that Frodo didn't remember clearly and that Sam wrote from his perspective. In any case, it's told from his perspective, whether he wrote it himself or not!
Before finishing this thread, I must mention that the shift is incomplete – we still do not fully enter Sam’s heart. Not until ‘Mount Doom’ do we hear of Rosie Cotton.
Well, I doubt if he has much time to think about Rosie right now. There's still too much else to do. It's only as he reaches the end of the road that he starts to regret Rosie. But even then we don't fully enter his heart - he only remembers his happy childhood days playing with her and her brothers. His commitment to her isn't mentioned at all - and won't be until his job is over and he can (as he thinks) reconcile his love for Rosie and his commitment to Frodo.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Elros
Ossiriand
Jul 12 2008, 11:48pm
Post #7 of 7
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at least of those that despair and take the evil road in the face of hopelessness could be Grima betraying Theoden and Rohan by serving Saruman.
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