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sador
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 7:54am
Post #1 of 25
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The Black Gate is Closed, V - The Gate and the Other Way
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It's a few hours later than I promised to post the next thread; in which time I have taken council with myself.
It seems that it will be difficult to start meaningful discussions about everything I planned, so I must start less threads. This time, I'll combine two planned threads into one, while shortening each of them.
And thanks to everyone for their kind words!
“The two hobbits gazed at the towers and the wall in despair. Even from a distance they could see in the dim light the movement of the black guards upon the wall, and the patrols before the gate.”
1. Who are these guards? The movies have Orcs; Saruman (as mentioned in ’Foltsam and Jetsam’) has Men. I have once argued Sauron worked with Orcs better than Saruman did, and put them in higher positions of trust – as he did with Shagrat, and possibly with Grishnakh. Do you agree? If you do, why is it so?
But apart of the gurads, the Gate itself isn’t quite appealing. To begin with, it’s Black.
2. Does the colour in itself symbolise the Gate’s Evil? Consider other artifacts of black metal – Gurthang, Bard’s Black Arrow, the head of Grond – any other examples?
Next to the Gate are two towers. Here they are known only as ‘the Teeth of Mordor’, and we don’t learn there names until the next book: in ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’ they are named Carchost and Narchost.
3. Did you miss the names? On the same paragraph, we are given the names of Ephel Duath, Ered Lithui, Lithlad, Gorgoroth (that we might have remembered from ‘The Breaking of the Fellowship’), the Sea of Nurnen, Cirith Gorgor, and the Morannon. What does this omission mean? And why save the information until then?
We do not learn the names of the towers, but we are told quite a bit about them: “In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance.”
No names, but a bit of historic background about their erection, desertion and fall. Or is it the fall of Gondor?
Compare to Elrond’s words: “But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-Earth the line of Meneldil son of Anarion failed, and the tree withered, and the blood of the Numenoreans became mingled with that of lesser men. Then the watch upon the walls of Mordor slept, and dark things crept back to Gorgoroth.”
And to Faramir’s: “Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.”
4. How do the three descriptions – the Author’s, Elrond’s and Faramir’s – relate to each other? Which of them passes a harsher judgement on the Gondorians?
It appears that Elrond and Faramir disagree on minor details – Elrond sees the sleeping of the watch as a result of the failure of the line of Anarion, while Faramir sees the Stewards as renewing the strength and vigour of Gondor. ‘The Tale of Years’ supports Faramir’s version, unless we assume Elrond is condemning the Rhovanion marriage of king Eldacar – in which case they are disagreeing on a more fundamental question, one way beyond the pale of this chapter.
The two towers are built upon the two mountains on the sides of the Morannon, and “Benath the hills on either side the rock was bored into a hundred caves and maggot-holes; there a host of orcs lurked, ready at a signal to issue forth like black ants going to war.” This reminds me of Curious’ suggestion that towers built upon rocks are vulnerable if the mountains are scaled (in ‘Minas Tirith’ Tolkien makes pretty much the same observation). Apparantly, the Orcs defend the tower from bing outflanked.
Then there is the plain, in which the Easterlings camp for the night (why not in Udun?) and then the deep defile of Cirith Gorgor itself.
5. When we discussed the breach in Helm’s Dike, the advantages of channelling an attacking enemy to a deep and narrow ravines were proclaimed. Nevertheless, in both times Sauron was attacked from the North (by the Last Alliance, and by the Captains of the West in book V), he engaged his Enemies upon the Dagorlad, instead of letting them pass and trapping them in Udun. Any ideas why?
The hobbits despair, and Sam even invokes his Gaffer. But Frodo? “His face was grim and set, but resolute. He was filthy, haggard, and pinched with weariness, but he cowered no longer, and his eyes were clear.”
Clarity seems to be connected with Frodo. Three examples:
“He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for those who can see” – Gandalf, in ‘Many Meetings’.
“But I am glad to have heard you speak so fully. My mind is clearer now” – to Boromir, in ‘The breaking of the Fellowship’.
“Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use” – putting on the Ring, ‘Mount Doom’.
6. Which of this sentences resembles the clarity spoken of here the most?
This question seems to me very interesting, because in a few cases, Frodo’s motives seem quite ambivalent.
On Amon Hen: “He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell.”
On the Ford before Rivendell? Consider Darkstone’s idea of the Nazgul influencing Frodo there.
And before Minas Morgul, he feels himself being summoned by the Witch-king. Or not really so (the Ringwraith doesn’t know he’s there) – the Ring is trying to reveal itself, and return to its Master.
Let’s consider Frodo’s words: “I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go.” But was he?
Remember Elrond’s words at the end of the Council: “But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right.” and his farewell words in ‘The Ring Goes South’:
“On him alone any charge is laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.”?
7. Are these words a command? If not, why does Frodo say he was commanded to go to Mordor?
Frodo purposes to enter Mordor through the Gate, but Gollum dissuades him. In a despearte attempt, he tells Frodo about a different way.
8. I hate such questions, but here I really must ask: on your first reading, did you suspect Gollum had a plan? Was he trying to save Frodo? Or did you think, with Sam, he didn’t know himself what he was about?
9. What do you think now – did he form the plan to take Frodo to Torech Ungol now, on the spur of the moment – or was that a part of the “temporary truce” between Slinker and Stinker?
Sam objects, saying Gollum’s plan makes no sense, to which Gollum answers with uncharactaristic near-patience: “It makes no sense to go into Mordor at all...”
10. Tolkien lets us follow Sam’s doubts, and relates them to the debate he overheard. Why doesn’t he make connection with the “She”? Does the reader?
But I wonder about Gollum’s reaction: not quite insulting to Sam, and patiently arguing his point with Frodo – to the extent that he lets his desire for the Ring slip.
11. Doesn’t this behaviour seem suspicious in itself?
Since I haven’t learned yet how to post images properly, I might not be able to post a map of Mordor next time; those who follow this discussion, might find it helpful to consult one.
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
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The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
(This post was edited by Hengist on Jul 14 2008, 10:07am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 9 2008, 3:58pm
Post #2 of 25
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One reason why the towers and gate might be black is the steady outpouring of soot in the air, expected from industries that have filled the countryside with slag mounds and polluted sumps. Tolkien saw air pollution increase so steeply within his lifetime that a pale moth evolved quickly into a black moth from natural selection. Before, the rare black moth would stand out and get eaten by birds. After air pollution, the pale moths stood out against the soot-darkened trees and walls, leaving only the black moths to breed. This quickly became a textbook example to teach evolution to schoolchildren, but Tolkien would have (justly, I think) seen it more as a warning that "progress" propelled us rapidly towards a grim and filthy future.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 5:09pm
Post #3 of 25
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Oh, I meant when Gondor's strength failed, but came back again, but failed again...
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“The two hobbits gazed at the towers and the wall in despair. Even from a distance they could see in the dim light the movement of the black guards upon the wall, and the patrols before the gate.”
1. Who are these guards? The movies have Orcs; Saruman (as mentioned in ’Foltsam and Jetsam’) has Men. I have once argued Sauron worked with Orcs better than Saruman did, and put them in higher positions of trust – as he did with Shagrat, and possibly with Grishnakh. Do you agree? If you do, why is it so?
For some reason I have always imagined that the night-guards were Orcs, with their love of the dark, night-vision and sharp hearing, and the fact that they retire to “deep halls” and dungeons that recall the “hundred caves and maggot-holes” that we know house the Orcs beneath the two towers. I assume the day-guards, on the other hand, are Men, primarily because they don’t mind the light. Also their description as “evil-eyed and fell” seems more applicable to Tolkien’s “bad Men” rather than to non-human creatures like Orcs.
That’s just my reaction on reading the passage. There is more that we can bring to this question.
Arguments for there being Men in Mordor’s service at the Black Gate: We also know the Mouth of Sauron is a mortal Man, who entered Sauron’s service recently. This supports the idea that some Men, at least, can tolerate conditions in Mordor and are perhaps regarded as especially useful for executive posts. The line “he had few servants but many slaves of fear” may apply here: Those “few servants” might well be Men. We know Sauron has contempt for his Orcs, who are presumably the slaves referred to (also remember they are “useful slaves” but he can always spare a few for Shelob). It’s hard to believe by this evidence that any Orc could rise above the captain ranks that Shagrat and Grishnakh hold. Also, before the Great Darkness flows out of Orodruin, Orcs do not function well in daylight and stay hidden, as we are told here with the “maggot-holes” description and as we also will see in Ithilien. Without creatures that can function under the desert sun of Mordor, how does He keep the place going? Night shifts only? It seems unlikely: “another dreadful day of fear and toil had come to Mordor”.
Arguments for Orcs holding all the posts here: Certainly the fact that Minas Morgul seems entirely staffed (Manned? Orced?) by Orcs, as does the Cirith Ungol post, and that Sauron’s Mannish allies at the Pelennor battle seem to come from the tribes to the east and south of Mordor, supports the idea that Sauron uses Orc soldiery exclusively in Mordor itself. And who was Gothmog, the Witch-King’s lieutenant: a man, an Orc, or some other demonic creature not otherwise specified? The name certainly seems Orcish. If we want to pursue the idea of an all-Orc guard force at the Morannon, we may speculate that the day-guards could be specially-bred Orcs such as Saruman developed. But this is a slippery slope argument, since the essence of Orcs is that they are creatures of the Darkness. Day-Orcs break one of Tolkien’s fundamental rules. As we know, Saruman may have had to cross-breed Orcs with Men to get what he needed for his assault on Rohan. Sauron could, I suppose, have done the same thing, but Tolkien really does not go there in his writing.
So I vote for Men guards, and higher officers too, at the Morannon. I like the images this gives me of a continuing self-destructive and inefficient conflict between the two races, both evil but one even more brutish than the other. The nasty racism that I expect dominates their relationship appeals to me too. Evil is as evil does!
But apart from the guards, the Gate itself isn’t quite appealing. To begin with, it’s Black.
2. Does the colour in itself symbolise the Gate’s Evil? Consider other artifacts of black metal – Gurthang, Bard’s Black Arrow, the head of Grond – any other examples?
As we’ve discussed before, Tolkien does not make black the universal color of evil in his story. We have the positive example of black liveries for the Elves and the Numenoreans (see Aragorn’s standard, and the cloaks of the Minas Tirith citadel guards, and the outer wall of that City, for example). The idea is that black is the color of the night sky offset only by the jewel-like stars. The Elves still love the nights that remind them of their earliest years on Middle-earth, as we see during Frodo’s walk with Gildor. Nevertheless, Morgoth corrupted the once-pure Night before anything else, and only Light remained as the primary source of good in Middle-earth.
But Elvish/Numenorean heritage aside, black is certainly the generic color of evil in LotR. Even when something is not literally black, it is black inside, so to speak (like the phrase “he has a black heart” to describe Snidely Whiplash, etc.)
For instance, I don’t think the Black Gate is literally black like with black paint. It probably is made of darker stone, but not is not necessarily a jet color. See Tolkien’s sketch of Barad-dur, the Dark Tower, which typically is illustrated as deeply black, but Tolkien just colors it in a range of dark and dull tones.
Next to the Gate are two towers. Here they are known only as ‘the Teeth of Mordor’, and we don’t learn their names until the next book: in ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol’ they are named Carchost and Narchost.
3. Did you miss the names? On the same paragraph, we are given the names of Ephel Duath, Ered Lithui, Lithlad, Gorgoroth (that we might have remembered from ‘The Breaking of the Fellowship’), the Sea of Nurnen, Cirith Gorgor, and the Morannon. What does this omission mean? And why save the information until then?
I didn’t “miss” the names, in the sense that as a reader I don’t miss what I don’t yet know exists! I doubt Tolkien had thought of their names when writing this chapter, and he probably never regarded it as important enough to alter the writing after he did invent them.
We do not learn the names of the towers, but we are told quite a bit about them: “In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance.”
No names, but a bit of historic background about their erection, desertion and fall. Or is it the fall of Gondor?
This is one of those passages that people point to when they see LotR as an allegory for the Second World War. Here the Towers represent the Treaty of Versailles, with its strict arms and territorial restrictions on defeated Germany, which were allowed to lapse by the late 1920s with the result that Hitler could rebuild his country’s forces and launch a second war!
I’ve never understood exactly how the Towers of the Teeth guarded Mordor against the return of Sauron, since he presumably would not arrive with an army from somewhere else. Indeed, we read elsewhere that he “fled” from Mirkwood to Mordor, where his minions had long prepared his welcome, including having already occupied the deserted towers of the Black Gate.
Compare to Elrond’s words: “But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-Earth the line of Meneldil son of Anarion failed, and the tree withered, and the blood of the Numenoreans became mingled with that of lesser men. Then the watch upon the walls of Mordor slept, and dark things crept back to Gorgoroth.”
And to Faramir’s: “Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.”
4. How do the three descriptions – the Author’s, Elrond’s and Faramir’s – relate to each other? Which of them passes a harsher judgement on the Gondorians?
Faramir is the harshest critic, probably because the results affect him most personally. Elrond seems to see the decline of the Men of Numenor as inevitable after their return to the more mortal precincts of Middle-earth. The author, while hinting of hubris (“pride and power”), simply states that Gondor’s strength “failed”. But Faramir attributes the decline to actions (“brought about”) and reversible slips (“by degrees”).
The author, in the Appendices speaking as a chronicler from the Fourth Age, gives the most credit to Elrond’s spiritual explanation of the decline of Gondor’s vigor:
“…the waning of the Dúnedain … still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenoreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star.” (RotK, Appendix A.I.iv)
You make a good point about Faramir’s loyalty to his own dynasty’s attempts to reinvigorate the empire, even though he admits it also lessened the high royalty of the ruling house. But Elrond and Faramir are talking about quite different periods in Gondor’s history, when it comes to the question of the first failures of the imperial dynasty and the later efforts of the Stewards to reinvigorate the strength of Gondor. Elrond’s comments about Meneldil’s line failing and the tree dying refer, according to the Appendices, to the Third Age years 1635-1640:
“…in the reign of Telemnar, the twenty-sixth king, whose father [was] Minardil, son of Eldacar … a deadly plague came with dark winds out of the East. The King and all his children died, and great numbers of the people of Gondor, especially those that lived in Osgiliath. Then for weariness and fewness of men the watch on the borders of Mordor ceased and the fortresses that guarded the passes were unmanned. … When King Telemnar died the White Tree of Minas Anor also withered and died. But Tarondor, his nephew, who succeeded him, replanted a seedling in the citadel.” (RotK, Appendix A.I.iv)
So the line didn’t exactly “fail” as Elrond states. Yes it was weakened by the intermixing and the Kin-strife, etc. But when the White Tree withered, and Mordor was left unguarded, the imperial line did not disappear, but was continued by a nephew and the White Tree was replaced by a successor. It was not until 1944 that throne was taken by a truly distant royal cousin, Eärnil; and finally in 2050, four hundred years later, his son Eärnur failed to return from Morgul and Mardil took charge of Gondor as the first Ruling Steward.
I suspect that Tolkien had not worked out the history of Gondor when he wrote Elrond’s speech at the Council, which links the failure of the watch on Mordor to the end of the line of Gondor’s Kings and the death of the White Tree. Certainly the retentive but unsuspecting reader would connect the withered tree that Pippin sees in Minas Tirith with Elrond’s comments, but that is the successor tree that King Tarondor planted, which did not die until the late 2700s. If I remember, when Tolkien first began to invent Aragorn’s backstory as the hidden King of Gondor, he did not have anything like 3000 years of history in mind between the death of Isildur and the return of Elessar. A lot of intermediary events referred to in the dialogue had to be stretched out once he settled on his basic timeline!
5. When we discussed the breach in Helm’s Dike, the advantages of channelling an attacking enemy to a deep and narrow ravines were proclaimed. Nevertheless, in both times Sauron was attacked from the North (by the Last Alliance, and by the Captains of the West in book V), he engaged his Enemies upon the Dagorlad, instead of letting them pass and trapping them in Udun. Any ideas why?
Excellent question. I suspect it has to do with Sauron’s need for martial and imperial glory. You don’t become a proper Evil Overlord by trapping your enemy in a defile (which worked for Merry at the Battle of Bywater, too, didn’t it?). Fighting a set-piece battle on a open plain was the preferred tradition of ancient warfare, and so Tolkien provides his antagonists with the “Battle Plain”. It is a successor to all those odd places in the Silmarillion where the Elves and Morgoth’s Orcs duke it out for days with spears shining, rank upon rank, etc. As usual, the idea of logistics is ignored. Not only is the battle plain extremely distant from any strategic locations whatever, there is no sustenance-providing rural population or even potable water nearby either.
Great questions, sador. I’m out of time now, but I hope to get back to more of this later.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ashkan1984
Lindon
Jul 9 2008, 6:23pm
Post #4 of 25
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Regarding the eighth question, I always asked myself the same question when I read that part or watched it in the film version. In that part of the film, Smeagol has not yet surrendered to Gollum, since it does not happen until after the scene in the Forbidden Pool. So, when Smeagol tells them there is another way, we shouldn't take as part of his plans, at least in the film. I am inclined to think the same about the book, taking into account the complexity of Smeagol's character (the thought that he may even try to help them pass through Shelob's lair in his freedom from the Gollum side).
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 8:10pm
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Sauron developed Uruks 500 years before Saruman, but in much the same way, by interbreeding orcs and men. Presumably that would have left him with plenty of half-orcs, as well as men who essentially lived like orcs. Such half-orcs and orcish men could have manned the Black Gates in the daylight.
I don't think he would have allowed any of his allies to man the gates. If they were men, they were the kind of men who were completely under Sauron's control, and might as well have been orcs. As you note, some of the commanders may have been men like the Mouth of Sauron or, for that matter, like the Nazgul, but they too were completely under Sauron's control.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 9 2008, 8:24pm
Post #6 of 25
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I like your examples of the word 'clear' as it relates to Frodo.
“His face was grim and set, but resolute. He was filthy, haggard, and pinched with weariness, but he cowered no longer, and his eyes were clear.”
“He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for those who can see” – Gandalf, in ‘Many Meetings’.
“But I am glad to have heard you speak so fully. My mind is clearer now” – to Boromir, in ‘The breaking of the Fellowship’.
“Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use” – putting on the Ring, ‘Mount Doom’
It seems to me that clarity is the thing that Frodo is always striving for, and what the Ring tries to deprive him of. Frodo must constantly fight against the whisperings and false images that crowd into his mind, and at moments of need he seems to be able to rise above them and gain his clear sight back. The fact that Frodo's eyes are clear at the Black Gate shows us that his mind is now free of all the imaginings that haunted him in the Marshes, and he's himself again.
Here's another example of 'clear' that I like, and that relates to something similar in Frodo:
"...he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart."
That's from The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, when he and Sam have been discussing heroes and stories. It's allowed Frodo's mind to clear itself of all the doubts and fears that have clouded his thinking, and this clear laugh is a sign of the great relief this quiet moment has given him. As at the Black Gate, he's facing the terrible moment when he must cross into Mordor, and both times he faces up to the task with clear-eyed courage.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 9 2008, 8:42pm
Post #7 of 25
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in the order of events between the movie and the book. In the movie, Gollum only starts to talk about letting 'her' do it at the very end of TTT, long after the scene at the Black Gate. In the book, this talk happens before they reach the Black Gate, at the end of the previous chapter, as Sam wakes and overhears Smeagol and Gollum arguing:
"She might help. She might, yes."
"No, no! Not that way! ' wailed Sméagol.
"Yes! We wants it! We wants it! '
So Shelob has already come into Gollum's mind, and so has the understanding that it means going "that way", even before he first suggests the way to Cirith Ungol to Frodo.
And here's Sam catching a glimpse of something crossing Gollum's mind as he asks what's guarding the pass:
'If that path is still there, it'll be guarded too. Wasn't it guarded, Gollum? ' As he said this, he caught or fancied he caught a green gleam in Gollum's eye. Gollum muttered but did not reply.
Did Sam just imagine it, or was Gollum having trouble hiding his reaction to this question, since he knows that the answer is Shelob? We don't know for sure - and maybe Gollum himself doesn't know exactly what he intends to do yet - but one thing we do know is that Shelob is already a part of his thinking.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 9:00pm
Post #8 of 25
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1. Who are these guards? The movies have Orcs; Saruman (as mentioned in ’Foltsam and Jetsam’) has Men. I have once argued Sauron worked with Orcs better than Saruman did, and put them in higher positions of trust – as he did with Shagrat, and possibly with Grishnakh. Do you agree? If you do, why is it so?
The narrator specifically mentions orcs, and does not mention men. However the Mouth of Sauron is a man -- or used to be. And the Uruks were produced from orcs breeding with men. So perhaps there are some orcish men around, some half orcs, and some Uruks, as well as the old-fashioned kind of orc.
2. Does the colour in itself symbolise the Gate’s Evil? Consider other artifacts of black metal – Gurthang, Bard’s Black Arrow, the head of Grond – any other examples?
Not everything black is evil and not everything white is good.
3. Did you miss the names? On the same paragraph, we are given the names of Ephel Duath, Ered Lithui, Lithlad, Gorgoroth (that we might have remembered from ‘The Breaking of the Fellowship’), the Sea of Nurnen, Cirith Gorgor, and the Morannon. What does this omission mean? And why save the information until then?
I did not miss the names. I think Tolkien wanted to call attention to the tooth metaphor, so he called the towers teeth, instead of something that translates as teeth.
4. How do the three descriptions – the Author’s, Elrond’s and Faramir’s – relate to each other? Which of them passes a harsher judgement on the Gondorians?
Faramir's use of the word "dotage" seems more harsh than the narrator and Elrond's judgment that men "slept." I don't think the guards literally slept or fell into dotage. They just left, abandoning the towers.
As far as the discrepancies between Elrond and Faramir's account, I think Elrond takes the line favorable to Aragorn -- the stewards should have recognized the northern claim to the crown -- whereas Faramir takes the party line of Gondor, which is that the stewards were good for Gondor. In a sense, they are both right, because the stewards did do much good, but the rightful kings presumably would have done better.
Then there is the plain, in which the Easterlings camp for the night (why not in Udun?)
Udun is there to trap any enemy fierce enough to pass the gates. It is kept empty for strategic purposes.
5. When we discussed the breach in Helm’s Dike, the advantages of channelling an attacking enemy to a deep and narrow ravines were proclaimed. Nevertheless, in both times Sauron was attacked from the North (by the Last Alliance, and by the Captains of the West in book V), he engaged his Enemies upon the Dagorlad, instead of letting them pass and trapping them in Udun. Any ideas why?
The Last Alliance besieged Barad-dur for several years, so I'm guessing many of them did die in Udun, as well as outside and inside Mordor. The forces under Aragorn were so small that there was no need to allow them to enter Udun in order to surround them.
The hobbits despair, and Sam even invokes his Gaffer. But Frodo? “His face was grim and set, but resolute. He was filthy, haggard, and pinched with weariness, but he cowered no longer, and his eyes were clear.”
Clarity seems to be connected with Frodo. Three examples:
“He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for those who can see” – Gandalf, in ‘Many Meetings’.
“But I am glad to have heard you speak so fully. My mind is clearer now” – to Boromir, in ‘The breaking of the Fellowship’.
“Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use” – putting on the Ring, ‘Mount Doom’.
6. Which of this sentences resembles the clarity spoken of here the most?
I'll pick door number two, from "The Breaking of the Fellowship." As with Boromir, Frodo knows what he must do but was scared to do it; now he is resolute and no longer scared.
Remember Elrond’s words at the end of the Council: “But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right.” and his farewell words in ‘The Ring Goes South’:
“On him alone any charge is laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.”?
7. Are these words a command? If not, why does Frodo say he was commanded to go to Mordor?
No, Elrond did not command Frodo to go to Mordor. That's why several members of the Fellowship argued that he should go to Minas Tirith instead. But Frodo did volunteer for the task, and perhaps he considers that equivalent to a command. Or perhaps he is talking about a different command, from a Higher Power than the Council.
8. I hate such questions, but here I really must ask: on your first reading, did you suspect Gollum had a plan? Was he trying to save Frodo? Or did you think, with Sam, he didn’t know himself what he was about?
I don't remember, but I have to believe I suspected Gollum planned treachery. But then Frodo also suspects that Gollum plans treachery, and repeatedly warns him against it. I don't think Frodo is as soft-hearted as Sam believes; rather, he is fatalistic, and believes Gollum is fated to be his guide.
9. What do you think now – did he form the plan to take Frodo to Torech Ungol now, on the spur of the moment – or was that a part of the “temporary truce” between Slinker and Stinker?
Well, didn't he refer to "she" before this moment? And "she" is clearly Shelob. But even now Gollum hasn't really decided what to do. By delaying the entry to Mordor, he also delays his decision.
10. Tolkien lets us follow Sam’s doubts, and relates them to the debate he overheard. Why doesn’t he make connection with the “She”? Does the reader?
The word "she" isn't much to go on. Sam clearly suspects treachery, but isn't too clear on the nature of Gollum's plan. Nor is the reader.
But I wonder about Gollum’s reaction: not quite insulting to Sam, and patiently arguing his point with Frodo – to the extent that he lets his desire for the Ring slip.
11. Doesn’t this behaviour seem suspicious in itself?
Indeed it does, which is why Frodo warns Gollum that he is in danger, and must relinquish all desire for the Ring.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 9 2008, 9:03pm)
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 9:15pm
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Where does it say that Sauron bred Orcs and Men?
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I've heard this before, perhaps from you back in April, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere in the books. Our April discussion (which I don't want to re-open) more or less landed on Uruk and Uruk-hai both being acceptable variations of the word for "orc", but used for large soldier breeds.
My understanding is that Saruman's deed of cross-breeding was considered shocking even by those used to the crimes of the Dark Lord. As Treebeard says, if Saruman blended Orcs and Men it would be a "dark evil" - this suggests that the idea is new to him. Treebeard doesn't get out much, but he knows the ways of the world and if Sauron had done this before the time of the War of the Ring I would think he'd be aware of it.
I think the inability of orcs to function in daylight is very important to the story, and even the legendarium as a whole. If Sauron could have overcome that handicap to his plans to take over the world, he would have done it long ago. Saruman was a little cleverer than Sauron in this regard, and actually was able to create a kind of half-orc fighting corps. Perhaps this was because, being a wizard and not a true Dark Lord, he still had day to day contact with real men and still relied on persuasion rather than pure domination!?
Your point about "men who essentially lived like orcs" manning the gates sounds right to me - how could it be otherwise in Mordor? But to say that they "might as well have been orcs" makes discussion meaningless. It's like saying there is no difference, so why inquire? I think there is a difference. From what I can tell, for instance, orcs can be slaughtered indiscriminately by Men because they are morally irredeemable, whereas the most evil of men must still be given a chance at redemption. We see this at the end of the book at the Black Gate, and during the Scouring, and even at the destruction of Isengard where the Ents kill the orcs but spare the men. I know Tolkien hated this moral distinction as he looked back on his legendarium - and his entire concept of evil minions, man or orc, is contradicted somewhat by his repeated reference to Sauron's "slaves" who (like all slaves) should presumably not be held accountable for the crimes of their masters - but that's the way he wrote his stories.
I am still taken by my idea that any men and orcs who had to live and work together, at the Morannon or elsewhere in Mordor, must have engaged in vicious cross-race hatreds. It would explain many of the inefficiencies we see in Mordor's operations, at home and abroad. But it may be indicative of Tolkien's discomfort with the idea of writing about men who lived like and with orcs - or men who, by Saruman's bidding, would even breed with orcs - that we never witness any cooperative orc-human interaction in his stories, no matter how much it is implied.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 9 2008, 9:25pm
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Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed" - Text X
Technically, this says that Morgoth or his agents interbred men and orcs, and Saruman rediscovered or learned of the technique, but since Sauron's black Uruks appeared about 500 years before Saruman's, I think it is a reasonable guess that Sauron also used the technique.
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squire
Gondolin
Jul 10 2008, 3:03am
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As the boy with no body below his neck said every time his birthday came around.
Ah, the old Morgoth's Ring chestnut about the orcs! Yes, that passage you cite is part of a long series of essays that J.R.R.T. composed between about 1954 and 1969, as he tried to pin down to his own satisfaction the origin and essential nature of orcs - with a concern as much for the canon of the unpublished but fairly complete Silmarillion as for the published Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.
In the Lord of the Rings, he had said that Orcs were beings corrupted and twisted by Morgoth (LotR, Book 6, Chapter 1; and Appendix F). He didn’t say what beings they were twisted from, but now it is clear that this was lifted from his extant drafts of The Silmarillion; when that book was published, we see that at this time he distinctly thought of the Orcs as having been corrupted and twisted from the Elves (Sil, Of the Coming of the Elves, p. 50).
Thus, when writing Treebeard’s and other characters’ thoughts about the horror of Saruman’s experiments in man-orc interbreeding, Tolkien had not written of any other experiments on these lines.
In The Lord of the Rings, Uruk, and Uruk-hai, referred to large soldier-breeds of orcs.
The “race of uruks, black orcs of great strength” first issue out of Mordor in the Annals of the Stewards around Third Age 2475, as you say. These orcs are referred to repeatedly in the book. For instance, in Moria, Gandalf says that of the orcs he quickly glimpses through the door of Mazarbul, he saw many that were “large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor” (LotR, Book II, Ch. 5).
Nowhere, outside of the parts of the book about Saruman, do we hear that these might be man-orc hybrids or that they function freely in daylight. To the contrary: for instance, in the Annals we read that it is the Uruks that take over Ithilien and drive the last Gondorians from that land only a hundred years before the War of the Ring. (“2901 - Most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor.” – LotR, Appendix B, Tale of Years) As Frodo and Sam tramp through Ithilien, we read that “though Orcs may shun the sunlight, there were too many places here where they could lie hid and watch” (LotR, Book IV, Ch. 4). No, that doesn’t prove that those orcs in Ithilien were Uruks. But this analysis and many other passages strongly suggest it.
When Tolkien was writing LotR, I believe the Uruks of Mordor were a large and fierce breed of orc, better suited to organized warfare against Men, but not in any real way different from the smaller and more ancient types. It was Saruman who took Sauron’s Uruks, and crossed them with Men – or so Treebeard, the Rohirrim, and the hobbits speculate.
What happened after the book was written? As we have discussed before, Tolkien became convinced after LotR was published, that the orcs, supposedly corrupted from the Elves, could not be irredeemable as a people; Eru would never allow Morgoth to inculcate evil so deeply in a race that it was passed on inherently to their young. Yet orcs bred, and remained evil. Thus they could not be of Elvish stock – contrary to what the LotR implied and the Silmarillion up to then had asserted.
Morgoth’s Ring documents his subsequent efforts to work out what they were instead (HoME X Morgoth’s Ring, Part V “Myths Transformed”, see texts VIII, IX, and X).
His first set of notes reasons out that orcs must be beasts with no souls, raised by Morgoth into imitations of humanoid form and trained to parrot the speech of sentient beings (text VIII, c. 1957).
He rejected that in his next short note as inconsistent with the orcs as written, and returned to the idea that orcs were corrupted specimens of Elves, and later, of Men; and he added that many of the lesser Maiar who followed Melkor into evil probably manifested themselves in orc-form – kind of super-orcs/demons (text IX, c. 1957).
Finally he wrote up a fairly finished essay (text X, c. 1960). He attempted to show that the Orcs were corrupted not from Elves, but Men. One objection was that the chronology of the Silmarillion mythos told of large numbers of orcs harrying the Elves in Beleriand before even the Valar knew that Men had awakened. He first ignored that objection, but eventually decided that Morgoth’s servant Sauron had done the corrupting of the very earliest Men, while Melkor was still imprisoned by the Valar.
By the way, he here abandoned his earlier dictum that Eru would not allow a racial corruption whereby evil nature was passed on via birth; the idea was theologically correct, but fundamentally inconsistent with the legends already in print. We may speculate that with orcs as independent actors and having the weaker natures of Men rather than Elves, it is at least imaginable that orcs’ evil behavior is entirely learned through social conditioning – but Tolkien is finally silent here. At least the orcs, as modeled on Men, had relatively short life spans!
With a workable model for Men as the source for the first Orcs, he then added the twist that you have noted for us:
It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. (HoME, X, Part IV, text X)
Finally in an appendix to Text X (c. 1969), Tolkien attempted to reconcile the various states of free will exhibited by his orcs in the legendarium. He sees the orcs as essentially independent beings, able to function in every way without the attention of their Dark Lord. When dominated and harnessed for war, by Morgoth and especially by Sauron in the later Ages, some cadres of orcs in fact lost their free will, were “absorbed” into the Dark Lord’s will, and assumed robot-like mentalities. These are the ones who, after Sauron is destroyed, destroy themselves in despair. But as Tolkien notes, in all ages, “those who were absorbed were always a small part of the total.” Thus we see the independent orcs of the Hobbit, the Dwarf and Goblin War, and the free-thinking orcs of the Cirith Ungol adventure.
Phew.
From this study of these notes, we see that Tolkien makes his comment about Saruman reinventing cross-breeding entirely in the context of a discussion of the orcs of the First Age, under the Dark Lord Morgoth and his adjunct Sauron. “Long afterwards, in the Third Age”, thus does not mean Saruman followed Sauron in blending men and orcs five hundred years from the appearance of large uruks out of Mordor c. 2475, as you have guessed. Rather, it means well over 6000 years later.
Most importantly, all of this is post-facto work by Tolkien. It is interesting to know, but it is not directly relevant to a reading of The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien's notes from the late 1950s do not apply to his 1954 work, The Lord of the Rings. At the time of writing, both from our subsequent knowledge of his thinking at the time, and from the text itself, it is clear that we are meant to understand that Saruman has devised a wholly original and diabolical means of overcoming the orcs’ weakness during daylight: he has done what even Sauron did not. As Treebeard comments,
It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!' (LotR, Book III, Ch. 4)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jul 10 2008, 3:22am
Post #12 of 25
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*Mods up!* But what is Grishnákh?
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He's from Mordor, is black and has great strength, and he doesn't seem to suffer in daylight.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 10 2008, 5:11am
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that Saruman was capable of any greater evil than Sauron. For the most part everything Saruman did seems to be in imitation of Sauron. Even ignoring the passage from Morgoth's Ring, we know from LotR and its appendices that Sauron developed not just Uruk-hai, but also Olog-hai resistant to sunlight. We know that in LotR there are many hints that Saruman developed his own Uruk-hai by crossbreeding orcs with men. Why wouldn't Sauron be capable of the same evil?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 12:09pm
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But it does make an interesting parallel...
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The blessed union of Elves and Men in the mythic past, and the hellish union of orcs and Men. Both repeated within the time-frame of LotR. Both Elves and orcs are aspects of us, really - our highest wisdom and our lowest urges imagined as separate "races" that exist outside ourselves. Interesting as mythology, indefensible as "reality".
Indeed, I find it hard to get excited by arguments about what the uruks "really" were. Hey, it's just a story! And if you want to imagine it as "real" history, then I think you have to bear in mind that all history is full of misapprehensions and unknowns. "Reality" changes depending on the beliefs of those who live it. For a modern take on this, read Umberto Eco's Baudolino. Or read Don Quixote, where the old beliefs that gave rise to heroic romance are neatly and cleverly debunked. Cervantes expresses the new, middle-class, skeptical way of viewing the world that we have inherited. We belong to a scientific age, and it seems that although we're quite ready to accept pseudo-scientific explanations along the lines of radioactive-spiders and the like, we can't accept that some questions may have no answer, or that the answer may be contingent on the beliefs of the individual. Questions of Balrog's wings, Eagle taxis, orcs' redeemability and even Elves' teeth don't have answers because they aren't supposed to have answers. They belong to a different convention, of a world where lots of things don't have answers, or at least don't have a single, rational answer. In later life, Tolkien seems to have lost confidence in his medieval approach to the worldview of his creation, and got more and more bogged down in trying to come up with "rational" answers to the questions his stories raise. That's a shame, because his mature work has confidence in this ambiguity - so many things in LotR are presented as only "seeming" that way to the protagonists - and for me it's one of LotR's greatest strengths.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jul 10 2008, 2:26pm
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Questions of Balrog's wings, Eagle taxis, orcs' redeemability and even Elves' teeth don't have answers because they aren't supposed to have answers. They belong to a different convention, of a world where lots of things don't have answers, or at least don't have a single, rational answer. In later life, Tolkien seems to have lost confidence in his medieval approach to the worldview of his creation, and got more and more bogged down in trying to come up with "rational" answers to the questions his stories raise.
But how much ambiguity is enough? Even before Tolkien started to write LotR, he was careful to distinguish the feel of his work from the haphazard manner of ancient Celtic tales, for instance.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 3:10pm
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between ambiguity about the physical details of phenomena, and ambiguity of purpose.
Even before Tolkien started to write LotR, he was careful to distinguish the feel of his work from the haphazard manner of ancient Celtic tales, for instance.
I'd suggest that it's not the unexplained, magical things found in Celtic myths that bother Tolkien, but the fact that there's no narrative structure, no clear morality or direction to the stories. As Tolkien puts it in Letter 19, "They have bright colour, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design." (Some of them have a strange beauty, though, such as my favourite, The Children of Lir.)
To apply this LotR, I'd say it's more important that the fundamental, opposed character of orcs and Elves is consistent and meaningful, rather than that the details of their biology can be scientifically explained. Basically, the orcs are the worst of us, and the Elves are the best of us. The "reality" of their origins and final fate is a mystery that can never be solved.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jul 10 2008, 3:12pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 5:54pm
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Ah, but sometimes the elves can also sink to wickedness, the Sons of Feanor being a case in point (some worse than others) and Maeglin, and others. But I can see that also being psychologically true, on a deeper than black-and-white level. There's an old saying, in a country that exists only in my dreams (it's full of old axioms.) "When the devil can't tempt you with your vices, he will tempt you with your virtues." Even jewels of the purest light of heaven can lead you astray, if you value them more than love.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 6:06pm
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Ah, but sometimes the elves can also sink to wickedness, the Sons of Feanor being a case in point (some worse than others) and Maeglin, and others.
The mythology of the Elves in the Silmarillion is even more like humanity writ large - like the Greek gods, almost.
I'm only talking about LotR when I make the clear Elves/orcs distinction. That pure wisdom is the way the Elves appeared to the hobbits, who are our eyes and ears in LotR. Likewise, the brutality of the orcs is seen through their eyes. What the Elves and orcs were "really" like we can only surmise (although the Sil tells us that they weren't entirely the way they look in LotR).
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 6:22pm
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...Tolkien hinted that Galadriel was a rebel, pardoned only because of renouncing her rebellion in the face of temptation. Because of the overall goodness of the LotR elves this made her almost like a fallen angel redeemed, to my reading, before the publication of the Simarillion. I am not arguing with what you say, I am just saying that Tolkien's nuances seem to know no bounds.
Therefore I see Shagrat as also nuanced. He is by no means good. Yet Tolkien makes him all the more vivid by hinting at murdered goodness in him. He is not some cartoon of a villain that one can hiss at without thought, but something unspeakably violated--a child of God made diabolical.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2008, 7:44pm
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Even in LotR Tolkien hinted that Galadriel was a rebel, pardoned only because of renouncing her rebellion in the face of temptation.
Those very subtle hints about Galadriel's exiled state are just the perfect amount of ambiguity for my taste - just a sense that what we're seeing through the hobbits' eyes may not be all there is to Elves.
Shagrat too - there is humanity in the orcs when we see them close up through the eyes of Sam, that wasn't apparent when we just saw hordes of them in battle.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jul 11 2008, 3:18am
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Sauron obviously uses Orcs in positions of leadership, as Morgoth did before him. Sauron's major lieutenants are not Orcs, just as Morgoth's weren't.
I can't help but envision the Orcs as a race, not intrinsically different from Elves or Humans or Dúnedain or Hobbits or Dwarves. There is a great deal of variability in their behavior, traits, attributes, but at the same time they are highly constricted in what they can and cannot do and think. Does this mean that Orcs can have the ability to be leaders? Certainly. Can they be loyal? Similarly, yes, if their overlord is appropriate. Can they ever be good? Maybe - we don't have a clear answer on this one, although they obviously are pre-disposed toward badness. But then, Elves can be evil, despite their being pre-disposed toward good...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 11 2008, 6:58am
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We do not learn the names of the towers, but we are told quite a bit about them: “In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance.”
No names, but a bit of historic background about their erection, desertion and fall. Or is it the fall of Gondor?
Compare to Elrond’s words: “But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-Earth the line of Meneldil son of Anarion failed, and the tree withered, and the blood of the Numenoreans became mingled with that of lesser men. Then the watch upon the walls of Mordor slept, and dark things crept back to Gorgoroth.”
And to Faramir’s: “Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.”
4. How do the three descriptions – the Author’s, Elrond’s and Faramir’s – relate to each other? Which of them passes a harsher judgement on the Gondorians?
It appears that Elrond and Faramir disagree on minor details – Elrond sees the sleeping of the watch as a result of the failure of the line of Anarion, while Faramir sees the Stewards as renewing the strength and vigour of Gondor. ‘The Tale of Years’ supports Faramir’s version, unless we assume Elrond is condemning the Rhovanion marriage of king Eldacar – in which case they are disagreeing on a more fundamental question, one way beyond the pale of this chapter.
I'm reminded of Hadrian's wall, built across England by the Romans in about 120 AD as a defensible barrier against the barbarians to the North. It was maintained for over 300 years.
It failed mainly because the Romans withdrew from Britain to fight mostly against themselves (supporting rival would-be Emperors), and when Britain was overrun it was by invaders from the sea, and the wall became irrelevant.
The Gondorians simply had other priorities, and guarding the entrances to Mordor seemed a lower priority than dealing with wars in other directions, the kinstrife, supporting the Northern Kingdom, pestilence, and other evils. In retrospect, of course, it was intolerably lax of them, and Faramir is, as has been pointed out, the one who is taking the brunt of the resulting calamities.
Sunset, July 3, 2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 11:00am
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“Come! There goes the trumpet for the closing of the Gate.”
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Then there is the plain, in which the Easterlings camp for the night (why not in Udun?) and then the deep defile of Cirith Gorgor itself.
As in Minas Tirith, people who arrive after the gate closes wait until morning to enter.
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(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Mar 22 2009, 11:00am)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 11:01am
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Concerning the “Battle Plain”.
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Not only is the battle plain extremely distant from any strategic locations whatever, there is no sustenance-providing rural population or even potable water nearby either.
It’s not convenient for Sauron’s enemies, but it’s his Pelennor, supportable from his base.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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