|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jul 8 2008, 7:05am
Post #1 of 11
(2047 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Black Gate is Closed, III - The Armies of the Dark Lord
|
Can't Post
|
|
If the land of Mordor itself wasn’t enough to depress us – the good Professor entertains us with a description of the armies defending it.
We begin, of course, with Orcs: “there (in the hills next to the Gate) a host of orcs lurked, ready at a signal to issue forth like black ants going to war”
Personally, I don’t like those descriptions – the Orcs seem to be quite bestial in them. Add to it “many more (ladders) replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South” and “Orcs had crept like rats through the culvert” from ‘Helm’s Deep’, and Pippin’s simile “like Orcs in a hole” from ‘Flotsam and Jetsam’ – why overdo it? Isn’t it enough to have them cruel and malicious?
1. Why did Tolkien use such nasty metaphors?
2. How do you feel about it?
As a comparison, let’s remember this passage from The Hobbit: “Now goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones...It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world,especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once... but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.”
3. Can you reconcile this description with the previous ones? Which one fits in better with the individual orcs we meet – Ugluk, Grishnakh, Gorbag and Shagrat?
Unlike the movie, we see no trolls. But, we get a glimpse of four fell beasts – dark bird-like figures – the new steeds of the Nazgul. At the moment, they are only described from afar: “They were very small to look at, yet he knew, somehow, that they were huge, with a vast stretch of pinion, flying at a great height”. Only in ‘The Battle of the Pelennor Fields’ we get a nearer glimpse.
4. Do these monsters inspire terror?
5. In ‘The Palantir’ Pippin described them quite similarly: “Things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling around the tower”. Did you make the connection?
6. Are the Riders guarding the Morannon, or does Sam see them from around Barad-dur?
Frodo says: “They can probably see more than any other creature”. Which seems pretty odd, considering that only one paragraph before, Tolkien uses Eagles as the standard of clear sight: “Not even an eagle poised against the sun would have marked the hobbits sitting there.”
7. Are the Fell Beasts the Enemy’s equivalent of Eagles – like Treebeard said Trolls were of Ents, and Orcs of Elves?
In both the comparisons made before – the mockery is far weaker than the original.
8. Doesn’t Frodo know this? Why does he make this statement? Is it a measure of his terror?
Tolkien’s metaphorical Eagle would have seen something: “For a moment he might have paused to consider Gollum, a tiny figure sprawling on the ground: there pehaps lay the famished skeleton of some child of Men... no flesh worth a peck”.
9. Did the Fell Beasts miss Gollum? Should they have looked for him?
{A last moment thought, without having the book here to consult with}.
Later, in 'The Choices of Master Samwise', Shagrat tells Gorbag that his boys spotted Gollum on his first visit to Shelob, and let him pass, as he was well known. And that soon after, word came from High Up that he was wanted. So maybe the Fell Beasts have spotted Gollum? And why would they think him suspicious - perhaps because he was at the scene of Faramir's raid on the Haradrim?
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 8 2008, 7:53pm
Post #2 of 11
(1617 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Why did Tolkien use such nasty metaphors?
"Black ants going to war", "apes in the dark forests", "rats through the culvert", are all meant to describe the impression onlookers get when they see huge numbers of orcs at a distance. Very like the impression you often get in the movies, when you see the digitally-created hordes of thousands upon thousands of orcs - in fact, as I recall, in the commentaries someone jokes about them actually really being trained ants and not CG creatures at all!
2. How do you feel about it?
It works for me - Tolkien wants to make us feel the horror of massive swarms of attackers coming to engulf their enemies.
3. Can you reconcile this description with the previous ones? Which one fits in better with the individual orcs we meet – Ugluk, Grishnakh, Gorbag and Shagrat?
In The Hobbit, Tolkien's being a bit disingenuous, you might say - calling the things the orcs make "clever", as if he's trying to be fair to them, but then adding that these "clever" things are actually "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once."
There's only one orc in LotR who seems "clever", and that's Grishnákh. He's evil and scheming. The others are just vicious and stupid. No wonder Sauron lost the war!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jul 8 2008, 9:49pm
Post #3 of 11
(1641 views)
Shortcut
|
Actually, I found Grishnakh to be quite intelligent--smart enough to see through the propaganda he was being fed, and to come up with some independent thoughts that would have seriously worried his handlers if they ever found out about it. Although Shagrat implied that he did have some impulse problems.
And Shagrat I almost liked. Something about the way Tolkien wrote his dialogue hinted to me that something decent inside him was trying to wake up from the nightmare of orcdom. He was capable of at least shallow friendship, displayed a certain affection for his troops, and his reluctance to allow even verbal damage to Frodo seemed to go beyond the call of duty. Not that he was by any means a nice person, but one could ache for the buried virtues suffocating inside of him. And of course even these bare hints of potential fell apart under stress when Gorbag turned on him. But the ghosts of virtue in the first place made his worse behavior all the more tragic.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 9 2008, 4:23pm
Post #4 of 11
(1587 views)
Shortcut
|
The orcs do seem almost "human" at times, I agree. They remind me of London gang-members or other members of the underclass. They have their own morality, even if it's harsh and warped. They clearly disapprove of the "great Elf warrior" leaving his comrade behind - and even say that it's a "regular Elvish trick", which makes it sound as if they have as low opinion of Elves as the Elves have of them.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Curious
Half-elven
Jul 9 2008, 6:45pm
Post #5 of 11
(1592 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Why did Tolkien use such nasty metaphors?
The orcs are monsters.
2. How do you feel about it?
It doesn't bother me. I'm much more bothered by the subrace of Fallohides, for example, which seem to me more classist and racist than any description of orcs. Monster stories need monsters, and not every monster is a racial slur.
3. Can you reconcile this description with the previous ones? Which one fits in better with the individual orcs we meet – Ugluk, Grishnakh, Gorbag and Shagrat?
The orcs and goblins are beastial in a moral sense, not as defined by their ability to use tools. They represent humans at their worst -- morally no different from beasts, and using their intellect to satisfy their animal desires.
4. Do these monsters [the fell beasts] inspire terror?
Strictly speaking, I'm not sure the fell beasts are monsters. After all, as you note, there are other examples of giant birds in Middle-earth. They inspire terror primarily because of their riders. Unlike in the movies, the fell beasts do not mount an aerial attack.
5. In ‘The Palantir’ Pippin described them quite similarly: “Things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling around the tower”. Did you make the connection?
Yes.
6. Are the Riders guarding the Morannon, or does Sam see them from around Barad-dur?
I've always assumed the "tower" Pippin describes is Barad-dur.
7. Are the Fell Beasts the Enemy’s equivalent of Eagles – like Treebeard said Trolls were of Ents, and Orcs of Elves?
Treebeard may not be correct about the trolls, according to Tolkien in his letters. Orcs aren't imitations of elves, but direct descendants of elves and humans. I don't think Fell Beasts are descended from captured Great Eagles, although that's an interesting theory. I think the Fell Beasts are featherless birds like the pterydactyls. On the other hand, the Fell Beasts are not emissaries of Manwe, either.
8. Doesn’t Frodo know this? Why does he make this statement? Is it a measure of his terror?
I think Frodo reasonably concludes that the fell beast has eyesight comparable to an eagle, since it is a similar type of creature, although more similar to a vulture. But eagles eat their share of carrion too! And I remember that in Africa the eagles had to wait their turn, since the vultures were much bigger birds.
9. Did the Fell Beasts miss Gollum? Should they have looked for him?
These particular fell beasts were quite high and remote. I don't think they were looking for anyone. You make an interesting point about Gollum, though. Even if he had been spotted the Enemy might not have been concerned.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jul 10 2008, 3:40am
Post #6 of 11
(1619 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Being silly from exhaustion...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I read this question...
9. Did the Fell Beasts miss Gollum? Should they have looked for him?
...and immediately pictured Fell Beasts and Gollum striking up a friendship during his captivity, then the poor winged things pining for him when he escaped, and yearning to fly forth and find him again. (Yes, yes, I know that it is not the least bit, not even remotely justified by anything whatsoever in Tolkien's writings!)
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jul 10 2008, 9:29am
Post #7 of 11
(1588 views)
Shortcut
|
Shagrat tells Gorbag about finding old Ufthak awake and glaring in one of Shelob's haunts, and leaving him there even though the Orcs suspected she forgot all about him.
And this is Shagrat, which Dreamdeer described as the best of Orcs...
But anyway, if we talk about leadership, bravery, keeping prisoners from harm and concern for one's troops - I still contend Ugluk wins the trophy. And I was very upset when with the invention of Lurtz and the concentration on other parts of TTT, he became lust a brutish, silly clown in the movie.
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Jul 10 2008, 9:37am
Post #8 of 11
(1562 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You should always post when in that condition! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 10 2008, 11:45am
Post #9 of 11
(1575 views)
Shortcut
|
Shagrat tells Gorbag about finding old Ufthak awake and glaring in one of Shelob's haunts, and leaving him there even though the Orcs suspected she forgot all about him.
I guess you're right, the orcs are at least as bad as us at seeing other people's weaknesses but not their own! 
But anyway, if we talk about leadership, bravery, keeping prisoners from harm and concern for one's troops - I still contend Ugluk wins the trophy. And I was very upset when with the invention of Lurtz and the concentration on other parts of TTT, he became lust a brutish, silly clown in the movie.
I guess you could say that Lurtz "became" Ugluk in the movie - the one with leadership qualities. I know it's hard when a character you love gets short shrift in the movies, but I didn't realize some readers even had a soft spot for individual orcs! That's quite a compliment to Tolkien's writing, I think.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Modtheow
Lorien
Jul 12 2008, 2:05am
Post #10 of 11
(1633 views)
Shortcut
|
1. Why did Tolkien use such nasty metaphors?
2. How do you feel about it?
I don't mind that the Orcs are described as ants at the beginning of this chapter. I find that it's a vivid visual image that suggests lots of activity and large numbers of them. They're hiding in "a hundred caves and maggot-holes," another image that reinforces the idea of large numbers of them, seen from a distance. The "maggot-holes" I find more derogatory even than the ant comparison, but the Orcs are generally meant to be bestial. Besides, we've just come from the previous chapter in which even Frodo and Sam have been compared to worms, so the contrast is not that great between the two sides at this moment, at least not in figurative terms.
Unlike the movie, we see no trolls. But, we get a glimpse of four fell beasts – dark bird-like figures – the new steeds of the Nazgul. At the moment, they are only described from afar: “They were very small to look at, yet he knew, somehow, that they were huge, with a vast stretch of pinion, flying at a great height”. Only in ‘The Battle of the Pelennor Fields’ we get a nearer glimpse.
4. Do these monsters inspire terror?
We do get a glimpse -- in very general terms -- of the winged beasts in the previous chapter and the travellers' reaction:
"...a small cloud flying from the accursed hills; a black shadow loosed from Mordor; a vast shape winged and ominous. It scudded across the moon, and with a deadly cry went away westward, outrunning the wind in its fell speed.
They fell forward, grovelling heedlessly on the cold earth. But the shadow of horror wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them, sweeping the fen-reek with its ghastly wings. And then it was gone, flying back to Mordor with the speed of the wrath of Sauron...."
This seems to me to be a moment of sudden terror, with the hobbits and Gollum falling on the ground "grovelling," and then there's the even more frightening return of the beast sweeping lower "right above them." Gollum is so terrified that he can't even be made to get up for some time.
In the passage that you cite, a comparison is made with the riders' previous appearance, and we are told that this second time, "the menace was more remote." Frodo, Sam, and Gollum don't all fall to the ground grovelling, though Sam "covered his eyes and bent forward, cowering." Gollum isn't struck senseless and unable to move, but he "huddled himself together like a cornered spider." Frodo stirs, shivers, and doesn't look up. We are told from Sam's point of view that the fear and horror was "not so crushing or compelling."
So I don't think that this appearance of the fell beasts is as suddenly terrifying as it was in the "Passage of the Marshes" chapter, but there is a deep sense of menace that the sight of them brings, and I think it comes from the idea that there is no place to hide from them. Before Sam sees them, the description of where the hobbits are hiding emphasizes how they are cut off or hidden from everything:
"A deep silence fell upon the little grey hollow where they lay...a silence that could be felt, as if it were a thick veil that cut them off from all the world about them. Above them was a dome of pale sky barred with fleeting smoke, but it seemed high and far away...Not even an eagle poised against the sun would have marked the hobbits sitting there...."
The fell beasts make Frodo, Sam, and Gollum feel like there's no place to hide. "They are looking for something: the Enemy is on the watch, I fear." To me, this creates a more sustained kind of fear which can follow them everywhere.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:58am
Post #11 of 11
(1427 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Could Sam see the Riders if they were so far away as Barad-dûr? //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
|
|
