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Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Jul 8 2008, 4:47pm
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Has storytelling become too passive?
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In April I was wandering around Japan alone and with only a few words of Japanese (most of them from a sushi menu) and watched CNN religiously because it was the only English television available. A musician (and I sure can't remember who) was talking about how he lamented that music had become passive. To hear music you used to play an instrument or sing. To hear music you created music. Now you pop in a CD or plug in your ipod and you don't have to interact with the music at all.
Now, having almost no one to talk to at the time, this thought started rolling around in my head for a week. And for whatever reasons I linked it to storytelling.
Once upon a time people told stories. I can't remember the last time I sat and told one. I write short stories, I blog about my life, and I post around here, but it's not the same. I honestly don't remember the last time I sat with a group of friends (or strangers) and just made up a story. Jokes, yes, but not stories. When was the last time you told one?
We don't have to make them up or repeat them anymore. They exist pre-written for us in books. And pre-read in audiobooks. And pre-imagined in movies, television, and plays. The art of dragging an audience along with you as you tell the story seems to be almost lost. I don't know why, but it makes me sad.
Like I said, I've just been rolling this around in my head for a while. What do you think?
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Miret
Ossiriand
Jul 8 2008, 5:25pm
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The art of storytelling has faded somewhat; or rather it's been changed into the art of watching movies/television.
When my daughters were very small (now nearly 19 and 16) I used to read to them each night, or tell them stories; or better yet they would tell ME stories; all part of a bedtime ritual that we've begun with our sons (who are now 9 and 8); reading (Prince Caspian right now) or listening to books on tape (Hobbit!) or just telling stories. They heard the legend of Pandora the other night when our Golden had puppies (2 in the whole litter, with only Pandora surviving).
It's interesting the way they hang on every word, when the story is new. Or when it's an old and well loved one (the Frog Princess- old Russian fairy tale that I love), how they tell it along with. I hope that it's something that they someday do with their children.
But in our current plug-and-play, hurry, hurry, hurry lifestyle, yes, I think it has become passive and passing.
It is by Caffeine alone I set my mind in Motion - It is by the juice of the Bean that thoughts acquire speed - The hands acquire shakes - The shakes become a warning - It is by Caffeine alone I set my mind in Motion...
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Elven
Doriath
Jul 8 2008, 5:33pm
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Now you have this rolling around in my head LOL!!
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But its a good point!
I think I might be a bit spoilt for exposure to story-tellers though. Where I live, in a small town, there are many poets, writers, singers and artists willing to share their talents and story telling with those willing to listen and watch. ... and each week somewhere, someone is holding a captive audience in one of the little cafe's or on the footpath ot in an arcade with an 'original'. Its not uncommon - the library has reading days, and there are societies and some festivals held on a pretty regular basis.
As for story telling - just switch on the news and listen to the politicians  .. big stories, tall stories, tales of treachery and valour ...
I must admit though, the only ones that isten to my stories are the cats  .. but they are very polite and just fall asleep.
I did start reading the Hobbit to a couple of kids and they were bored stiff - they wanted to read it themselves ... must be something in the delivery Im doing wrong .. its an art form indeed, and although I have my fill here - in other places I know its not the case.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Arwen's Daughter.
Cheers
Elven
Were off to Hobbiton finally!
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Jul 8 2008, 6:01pm
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Very interesting thread, I think
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One question before I start- when you're talking about telling stories, do you mean saying something that's happened, or actually making something up? I mean, I certainly hear lots of people say things like, "something really funny happened recently..." or something like that. But as for making up stories- what you said reminds me of something that I learned a while ago called "the hero's journey". I can't remember who came up with it first- maybe Joseph Campbell. I learned it in a class a few years ago, anyway. It's this diagram- let me see if I can remember it:
1. The protagonist gets called to an adventure
2. The protagonist faces at least one test, and receives aid from somewhere
3. The protagonist faces a final conflict
4. There is a return of some kind
Ok, it's something like that. I think it was originally written to apply to myths, but then there are theories that it applies to any story. Keeping in mind that the struggles and conflicts are often inside the protagonist himself, I think that is very true. So, what exactly is the art in telling a story, if all stories stick to this plot? There is something immensely fun about telling a story- it's a place where you control what happens. And it takes a skill to be able to, as you say, "drag audiences along with you". Is it eloquence? Humor? Poignancy? Some of these things appear in things we write every day- letters, or blogs (if you don't use txt speak). Is it better for us to put those skills to use in a story for others to read? I don't think there is any lack of stories, and I think that everyone at one point or another has created a story- whether they share it or not is what differentiates. I'm not sure what my opinion on this is, really. I like writing, and I like talking. I like delving into fantasy, and I like hearing the stories of other people's lives- I have never found a shortage in any of those areas.
As for the music, I totally agree about just plugging in your iPod. My iPod crashed a few weeks (and our computer was replaced randomly without my knowledge), and so I am currently without music (other than a few cds that I had, which is better than nothing)- which is a big deal for me (I need music). Well, that's what my first thought was- but I've been recently studying piano with a new kind of fervor, so I can play the music that I've "lost". Do you think that playing music that's already been written counts as "creating music"? There is an art, certainly, in playing a piece the way that you think it's meant to be played. In a sense, you are creating a piece when you play something that's already been written- because nobody's played it like you- on any instrument. But on another note- after listening to a piece that I love on my iPod, it's really cool to hear it live. While there are a few bands that I really like (mostly alternative and oldies), my favorite is classical. I was going through a Beethoven stage a few months ago, and kind of fell in love with his seventh symphony- I thought it was the greatest piece I'd ever heard. Very soon after that, the Houston symphony was playing Beethoven's seventh, so I saved up to go see that with a friend. Honestly, I can't enjoy my recording of it as much any more, simply because hearing it for real was one of the most beautiful experiences I've had. Maybe there is a difference in having music fed to you through an iPod, and going out to see the music on your own. Maybe it's the same thing as far as not creating anything- but there is something very good about the effort made to enjoy what we have, I think. For certain, I like live music way better than iPod stuff, and I think it shows an appreciation for culture when you go out to see that kind of thing- that is interacting with the music. But I totally agree that that is not nearly as common as it used to be- technology has changed that.
Similarly, is reading a story that's already been written so sad? I know that there are many books that never get published, simply because the publishers and editors don't have enough time to read all of them; there are so many books submitted for publishing each year. Just as maybe there are different ways to play a piece, there are different ways to read a book- maybe reading a book is an art. I agree that there is definitely something taken from the story when you hear an audiobook. I guess they're nice if you're driving, or if you need them (visually impaired, something like that)- it's better than not knowing any stories. I love reading so much. It is such a great thing to be able to plunge into a story and be able to forget everything that's happening. I've wondered what makes books better than TV, then? Just like books, while watching a movie or watching TV, you can interpret things in different ways, you can think about what you've just learned. But everyone says reading is better- I definitely enjoy it more. The way that I've seen it so far is that reading a book can be more of an art. I don't know why I think this, it just seems right. I would say that with a book, you can put it down to do research or look up a word (I just finished a historical fiction book during which I had about five other history books open for references)- but I suppose you can do that with a movie, too- we just don't. Well, I don't, anyway- if a movie is particularly interesting, I'll look up stuff about it afterwards, but never during. I'm not saying movies aren't art- I love movies, I love good ones, I really enjoy watching them, and I have respect for people who help make them. But you do hear people saying that reading is better than watching TV- I've never heard it said the other way around. (I'm not sure if there's a difference here between watching a movie and watching TV- maybe)
I think I went a little off-topic with that; sorry! I don't know if I answered any questions there- it's mostly just random thoughts. But I really like this thread- I find it very fascinating, and I would totally enjoy reading other people's replies.
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying. - Oscar Wilde
This is a work of fiction. All the characters in it, human and otherwise, are imaginary, excepting only certain of the fairy folk, whom it might be unwise to offend by casting doubts on their existence. Or lack thereof. -Neil Gaiman
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. - Mark Twain
You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway. - Walt Disney
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Louis Hector Berlioz
Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. -C.S. Lewis
(This post was edited by laerasea on Jul 8 2008, 6:07pm)
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Voorhas
Menegroth
Jul 8 2008, 7:18pm
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My feeling is that storytelling is hardwired into our species...and is inextricably bound to the development of language, social organization, culture, you name it. I once read a piece that suggested our ability to be hypnotized stems from a deep-seated urge to listen to any persuasive "story" being told, and to give the teller our undivided attention. That whole "suspension of disbelief" thing that fantasy and science-fiction authors talk about so often.
As per the subject of the post, yeah, I feel that stories have become too trivial, passive and cheap to come by. Easily digested and discarded (and I say this as a great admirer of books, comics, theater, movies, radio drama, etc.). Theres's something very primal about hearing a tale told directly to you by another person that's been lost...and having a story rely more on images than words seems to be one more abstraction that moves us away from the core of things...
"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." -- E.A. Poe
(This post was edited by Voorhas on Jul 8 2008, 7:22pm)
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Jul 8 2008, 7:37pm
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You're right that telling a story in person to an audience is a special feeling that can't quite be replicated by blogs and forum posts. But in a sense we are telling stories all the time, even if it is just telling jokes to friends or recounting day to day events. You could argue that having films and books everywhere encourages a more passive culture, but I don't think it has to- and trends like the fan fiction boom on the internet and book festivals springing up everywhere show an appetite for sharing stories.
Funnily enough my Dad runs the Scottish Storytelling Centre to promote the art of storytelling. They do lots of school performances and also train professionals who want to improve communications skills. There's a strong tradition of spoken tales in Gaelic culture (which lacked the written word) which the centre strives to keep alive. There's a festival for the public and I've heard some fun and imaginative tales from the Americas, Africa, Middle East... The centre is part of a world wide network, and there seems to be a growing interest in live storytelling.
So storytelling is alive and well if you look around for it!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jul 8 2008, 10:52pm
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I'm not quick-thinking enough to make up stories on the spot, but I read the novels I write out loud to my family. And when my kids were little I used to tell them fairy tales from memory.
I also grew up making my own music. At the parties I went to as a teen, people would bring gajdas (bagpipes), zurnas (folk oboes), spike fiddles, mandolins, hammer dulcimers and drums and play music from Balkan countries and Turkey, and we'd dance in people's living rooms. It was like a bit of heaven. There was also a lot of storytelling at those parties. I'll never forget when two guys named Barry and Joe acted out the story of Rabbi Moishe Pippik and the Cardinal, and we rolled on the floor laughing. And there was a guy named Steve who was famous for telling Nasrudin stories.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Jul 9 2008, 12:36am
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The African storyteller begins: “We do not really mean, we do not really mean that what we are about to say is true. A story, a story; let it come, let it go.” Many stories from African, whether they are about Ananse the “spider man” or not, are called “Spider Stories.” The book, 'A Story A Story', tells how Ananse tricks the sky god into giving up possession of all the stories.
I would read "A Story A Story" to 2nd graders. When we were done, I would ask if the students knew any one who tells stories. Many would say no until I gave them examples of stories that might be told: stories of childhood, war stories, stories of life in another country, tall tales (I caught a fish so big...), ghost stories, cautionary tales (don’t ever go to the store alone, a child did that once...), folk or fairy tales. This would prompt one to say their uncle talked about being in the army. Another would say their grandmother would talk about when she was little. Suddenly, they all wanted to tell me about the stories in their families.
I grew up with stories. My dad's family loved telling them. They were all about things that had really happened but I have no doubt they were creatively enhanced. I never minded hearing the same ones over and over again. I had an Irish aunt that told me her 'ghost' stories that had very natural explanations.
I love children's picture books. I made my living by reading them for nigh on 7 years. Some made my heart break they were so perfect. But I started to realize that parents would rather read the story of the Three Little Bears, with its exquisite or whimsical illustrations, then 'tell' it. Things change but this was, IMO, a loss.
Maybe one thing different for me as a parent than for my parents is that I don't have large family gatherings. They weren't telling those stories to us, the kids. They were telling them to each other for pleasure and entertainment. We just were 'allowed' to listen in. I don't know if sitting a kid down today and asking them to listen to a story works the same way.
A few times in the last week, I had reason to speak of people I've met from Wales and Cornwall that think nothing about gathering in a multi-generational event and dancing, playing music and singing. Today we schedule our dancing: Friday Night International -- Saturday Night Contra -- Sunday Night English Country -- Tuesday Ballroom. We gather and dance and go home. We don't have a true fellowship.
When we think of people singing on the street we think 'musical'. We don't think of Lt. Harry Price singing "Heart of Oak" before leading the Forlorn Hope into battle. We've lost touch with the concept of singing as a natural part of our daily activities (although there are still some who sing for no good reason but to let their voice loose.) If someone is standing at the bus stop singing, people around here refuse to look. (Don't look at it, Merry. Don't encourage it.)
Something a friend told me once seems to apply to this conversation and the one we had earlier on main. When I talked about visiting Disneyland she said she never thought much of theme parks. Too passive, she said. Your experience is scripted and planned and you stand around while someone/something entertains you. She'd rather go to dance camp or on a walking tour of the Scottish highlands. I thought she had a point. Not that I had to have it one way or another, but that I could consider: How actively am I engaged in this experience? How much am I interacting with others and how much am I isolated in my experience?
The African storyteller ends, "This is my story which I have related. If it be sweet, or if it be not sweet, take some elsewhere, and let some come back to me."
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hobbitlove
Mithlond
Jul 11 2008, 7:08am
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Didn't get time to post, but I thank you for this thread & great uplifting responses; they give me hope.//
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 11 2008, 1:43pm
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You cannot say the name Nasrudin without telling a story about him! That's an ancient and important tradition! Okay, so I'll tell a brief one, to get you off the hook.
Once upon a time, Nasrudin found a book on ventriloquism, and he thought it funny to make his old nag seem like she could talk. So he rode his horse into town and made it seem like the horse kept saying things like, "Out of my way!" or "Ooh, apricots! Do you have any for me?" or whatever he felt like. Everybody stared at him in shock, and it was all he could do to keep from giggling out loud.
But then the Caliph saw the spectacle from his carriage, and said, "It does not seem fitting that an old nag like that can speak, yet my fine purebred stallion cannot." So he had Nasrudin hauled before him, and commanded him, "Teach my horse to talk!"
"Your magesty," said Nasrudin, bowing. "It takes a long time to teach a horse to talk. You see that my own horse is old. It took me ten years to get anything out of her at all."
"My stallion is the finest of his kind, and should learn faster. You have three years. If by the end of that time he can talk, I will fill your pockets with rubies in gratitude. If he cannot, I shall order you beheaded."
"Agreed," Nasrudin said, for no one ever dared to disagree with the Caliph.
So that night, the Caliph's stablehand (who figured out all along that Nasrudin was merely a ventriloquist) came by the Royal Stables and found Nasrudin urgently speaking to the horse. "Why do you even bother?" the man asked him. "You know how hopeless this is. Why not surrender to your fate with as brave a heart as you can manage?"
Nasrudin replied, "Much can happen in three years, my friend. Perhaps the Caliph might die. Perhaps I might die. Perhaps the horse will learn to talk."
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jul 11 2008, 2:00pm
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One day Nasrudin died. His friends and family were carrying him in his coffin to the graveyard when an argument broke out. "The best way to get to the graveyard is to turn right here." "No, no, go straight ahead, past the orchard." "No, go around the lake." Finally, Nasrudin sat up in his coffin and pointed and said "When I was alive, I used to go that way."
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 11 2008, 2:12pm
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Measuring Ourselves Against Celebrities
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Terrific thread, Arwen's Daughter!
I also come from a storytelling family, and count myself tremendously lucky for that. And one that would sing during chores. And one that loved to participate in everything.
I think that what has happened, with storytelling, music, dance, and all of the arts, and sports as well, is that the media can now bring us the very finest work from all over the world, so we passively listen or watch, feeling inferior, feeling that we have no business even trying to create anything for ourselves, we must become passive spectators, because we cannot measure up to all of these celebrities.
But we lose so much! In terms of the arts, the spontaneously told story or sung song can adapt to the audience of the moment, weave in topical matters, emphasize different parts with even a well-known tale or song. And what can compare to the joy of dance-jamming with live musicians, capturing a new-born song in motion, with the thrill of matching invention for invention? Public folk arts interacts; it creates a stylized relationship, with a feedback loop.
And then there is the exercise. We all recognize this loss in spectator sports (though that doesn't stop so many of us becoming out-of-shape couch potatoes watching perfect bodies get yet another workout.) But what about the exercise of mind and heart and soul through creativity? We lose so much when we let other people do all of the creativity for us!
Must one wait for a perfect MTV body before one dares to dance in public? Must one sing perfectly to dare open one's mouth? Must one recite a perfectly polished story every time? Dare to be folksy! Things home-made and rough around the edges have their own charm.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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