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drogo
Menegroth
Jun 20 2008, 6:29pm
Post #1 of 12
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The Palantír VI: More on Gandalf and Pippin (and Sauron too)
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Gandalf continues to muse on how Saruman became ensnared by the roving Eye of Sauron:
"Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie buried, or drowned deep? But one. at least Sauron must have obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.
"Easy it is now to guess how quickly the roving eye of Saruman was trapped and held; and how ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and daunted when persuasion would not serve. The biter bit, the hawk under the eagle's foot, the spider in a steel web! How long, I wonder, has he been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and instruction, and the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dűr that, if any save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight swiftly thither? And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"
Pippin acknowledges that he did not know what he was getting into, but Gandalf says that his desire to gave into the stone would not have been lessened if he know.
Pippin then reverts back into his typical hobbit mode when he jokingly asks Gandalf "The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas," but then finally asks about the black shadow, learning that it was a Black Rider on wings.
Gandalf tells Pippin that he is not sure how Sauron will act with the news he has learned:
"But I cannot tell how it will fall out, well or ill for us. It may be that the counsels of the Enemy will be confused, or hindered by his wrath with Saruman. It may be that he will learn that I was there and stood upon the stairs of Orthanc-with hobbits at my tail. Or that an heir of Elendil lives and stood beside me. If Wormtongue was not deceived by the armour of Rohan, he would remember Aragorn and the title that he claimed. That is what I fear. And so we fly - not from danger but into greater danger. Every stride of Shadowfax bears you nearer to the Land of Shadow, Peregrin Took."
The two continue to ride towards Minas Tirith, Pippin falling into a sleepy daze as the world rolls away beneath him.
1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character? Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring? Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits? Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)? How is he interpreting what he saw and what the Nazgűl will report?
4. Calculate the average speed of Shadowfax from their camp to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin on his back and without them. What is the speed of light in Middle-earth/Arda?
5. What is the boiling point of a palantír in a vacuum? (Okay, skip this one…)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 20 2008, 11:13pm
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I think that Gandalf could have been almost caught. Remember, he didn't call Saruman a fool for looking into the palantir, he called him a fool for not telling anyone else about it. Gandalf would have surely looked into it in Saruman's place, but the difference would have been that he would have told others about it, who would have acted as his reality-check. They would have seen Sauron starting to take hold of him, and helped him to shake off that influence before it could harden--because he had the humility to let them. His occasional visits to hobbits might have helped him even more.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 21 2008, 5:43pm
Post #3 of 12
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1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character? Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring? Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
Certainly Gandalf could have gone down the same path as Saruman. But I get the feeling that Saruman's big mistake came after a long line of little mistakes, each building upon the other, until it became inevitable that Saruman would succumb to temptation. If Gandalf and Saruman were really alike at one time, it was long before they came to Middle-earth. Still, Saruman does function as a foil for Gandalf, showing what could have been if Gandalf were more clever and less wise. This is indeed a test for Gandalf, perhaps not quite as strong as when Frodo offered him the Ring, but quite similar because Sauron is behind it.
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits? Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
Yes, Pippin's resilience is remarkable. But his strength is also his weakness -- fools rush in where angels dare not tread. I'm not sure Pippin is typical even of the four main hobbits, though. He is the most resilient, and the most foolish.
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)? How is he interpreting what he saw and what the Nazgűl will report?
Saruman has the Ring and the Nazgul is flying to claim it for Sauron. Remarkably, Sauron does not seem at all worried about Saruman claiming the Ring.
4. Calculate the average speed of Shadowfax from their camp to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin on his back and without them. What is the speed of light in Middle-earth/Arda?
Fast. Even faster.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 21 2008, 8:55pm
Post #4 of 12
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1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character? Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring? Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
Gandalf is curious! He found it easy to resist the Ring, because he knew it was evil; there's no indication that he was seriously tempted by it. The palantir is not inherently evil, although this one has serious risks because it has become aligned with Sauron. But the opportunities it offers, both strategically in the current circumstance and for pure inquiry into the glorious past, are strong temptations. Had he used it, I doubt very much that he would have become ensnared. If Aragorn could control it (with great effort, but still...) I'm sure Gandalf could. I agree with Curious that Saruman's downfall was caused by a long series of bad choices over many years.
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits? Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
Humor is often mankind's strongest defense against unimaginable fear. I'm sure Tolkien heard lots of dark jokes in the trenches. Some of this attitude is reflected in the counting game of Gimli and Legolas during the battle at Helm's Deep. Both Merry and Pippin find bantering with Gandalf healing.
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)? How is he interpreting what he saw and what the Nazgűl will report?
He is sending the Nazgul to pick up the hobbit with the Ring. After all, the last he heard it was on its way to Isengard, and now he sees the evidence (a hobbit using Saruman's palantir). When the Nazgul reports the real state of affairs in Isengard, Sauron will be even more convinced that the Ring is at work here. It's obvious, after all, that it's the only thing that could have defeated Saruman so decisively.
4. Calculate the average speed of Shadowfax from their camp to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin on his back and without them. What is the speed of light in Middle-earth/Arda?
I'll go with Curious' answer.
5. What is the boiling point of a palantír in a vacuum? (Okay, skip this one…)
Silly, it's a crystal. Crystals don't boil.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 21 2008, 8:56pm)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 22 2008, 5:48pm
Post #5 of 12
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If you melt it, it boils in a vacuum.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 22 2008, 5:54pm
Post #6 of 12
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1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character? Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring? Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
I agree with Curious - yes, ultimately, but Gandalf is much more prepared to "take" the test than Saruman was, and the outcome might have been different. However, Sauron might have learned Gandalf's plan from Gandalf, and that would have been catastrophic!
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits? Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
Yes and no - Pippin seems almost like Tom Bombadil here, able to stand up to supernatural evil - for a while, but unable to take it seriously. That's not a good combination.
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)? How is he interpreting what he saw and what the Nazgűl will report?
Gandalf expects Sauron will think Saruman has the Ring, and when it becomes clear that Saruman is defeated, that Gandalf has the Ring.
4. Calculate the average speed of Shadowfax from their camp to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin on his back and without them. What is the speed of light in Middle-earth/Arda?
This depends on the length of the path they take, and Shadowfax does rest at times. I would guess that it's about like a car not on a freeway.
As for the speed of light, I'm sure it's the same as it is in our universe: 300,000 kilometers/second. Light could get from the Shire to Mordor in a small fraction of a second.
5. What is the boiling point of a palantír in a vacuum? (Okay, skip this one…)
Whatever its melting temperature is, since liquids cannot exist in a vacuum.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 22 2008, 5:54pm
Post #7 of 12
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This particular crystal shattered an iron railing and chipped the stairs of Orthanc. It's a special Valinorian made-by-Fëonor crystal. Short of carrying it to Mt. Doom, how do you propose to melt it?
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 22 2008, 5:55pm)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 22 2008, 6:31pm
Post #8 of 12
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I did not say it would be easy!
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To be honest, I'm not sure it could melt even in Orodruin. The point of the One Ring was that it was made in Orodruin. Otherwise, it could easily have been melted by a bolt of lightning, and the Fellowship would not have needed to take their quest, because lightning is hotter than molten rock. To destroy a Palantír, it might be necessary to take it back to where it was made, but I am sure there is somewhere in Valinor where such a thing could be destroyed.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 22 2008, 9:28pm
Post #9 of 12
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Shouldn't it be with a capital C?
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Gandalf is curious!
Sorry, but I couldn't resist.
"For one thing, in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time" - Merry
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 22 2008, 9:39pm
Post #10 of 12
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1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character? Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring? Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
Temptation has many devious ways into the heart of the tempted. This is similar to Gandalf being tempted by the Ring, in 'The Shadow of the Past':
Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. In this case, Gandalf deals with temptation by chosing another bearer of the stone, and riding away as fast as possible. That way he was safe, and he supposed the Stone would be to. But he apparantly reckoned without Aragorn.
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits? Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
Maybe. But it also reflects on the nature of humour.
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)? How is he interpreting what he saw and what the Nazgűl will report?
Sauron might have seen that Isengard was in ruins, and deduced the upstart in Orthanc doesn't know how to use the One Ring yet (which might answer Curious' question).
But anyway, before the Nazgul report back, he sees Aragorn wielding the Palantir (and Anduril) - which makes him think twice about how exactly Isengard was destroyed.
"For one thing, in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time" - Merry
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 23 2008, 2:57pm
Post #11 of 12
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1. What does Gandalf's desire to test himself with stone and to try to use it to see beyond the Sea tell us about his strength and his character?
He’s homesick.
Is this a test similar to that Galadriel went through when Frodo offered her the Ring?
Just the opposite. Galadriel would use the power of the ring to stay in Middle-earth. Gandalf would use the power of the palantir to leave.
Could Gandalf have gone down the same path as Saruman, had circumstances been different?
No. Saruman would rather rule in Middle-earth than serve in Valinor. Gandalf would rather serve in Valinor than rule in Middle-earth.
2. How does Pippin's ability to joke after this ordeal reflect upon the nature of hobbits?
They really can’t take anything seriously except food, pipeweed, and genealogy.
Is this an indication that hobbits are the best suited to confront the powerful forces of the Enemy?
Nope. It’s kind of like trusting the ring to Bombadil. They do not truly understand the need, and would most likely forget everything when they came upon a large store of food. How else do you think the ruffians were able to take over? Food and pipeweed are the opiates of the masses in the Shire.
3. What do you sense is Sauron's plan at this point (with the intelligence he has gained)?
Get the ring, torture the hobbit, Miller time.
How is he interpreting what he saw…
“The weenie has the ring.”
…and what the Nazgűl will report?
“The weenie lost the ring.”
Moral: Never send a weenie to do a cheeseburger’s job.
4. Calculate the average speed of Shadowfax from their camp to Minas Tirith with Gandalf and Pippin on his back…
Really fast.
…and without them.
Zero. Why on earth would Shadowfax want to go to Minas Tirith?
“Sure, Gondor mares are hip
I really dig those styles they wear.
And the Southron mares with the way they talk
They knock me out when I’m down there
“The cute Eastlerling fillies
Really make you feel alright.
And the Mirkwood mares with the way they kiss
They keep their stallions warm at night.
“But I wish they all could be Calenardhon...
I wish they all could be Calenardhon...
I wish they all could be Calenardhon mares.”
What is the speed of light in Middle-earth/Arda?
1.8x10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
5. What is the boiling point of a palantír in a vacuum?
First of all, how could you get a palantir into a vacuum? It's too big. Now, you might be able to get it into a regular shop vac, but even then you couldn’t actually suck it in through the nozzle. You’d have to open the whole thing up and just drop it directly in, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of a vacuum in the first place. Anyway, even with the toughest ElectroLux I expect the vacuum would boil first.
(Okay, skip this one…)
Okay. In the immortal words of Emily Litella, “Never mind.”
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 10:33am
Post #12 of 12
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Pippin is like Bombadil? Interesting! //
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