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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
May 28 2008, 7:23pm
Post #1 of 47
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Tolkien at University of Vermont: Week 2
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Greetings all,
This is a new thread for my UVM students. To my students, I ask that you place your questions here.
best,
Chris Vaccaro
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 28 2008, 7:27pm
Post #2 of 47
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Just out of interest, how have your classes been going over the last few years? (And have you noticed any increased interest with the two new films looming?)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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sue_uvm
Registered User
Jun 3 2008, 5:00pm
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I understand that Tolkien is devoting himself to a very specific and rather urgent chain of events in the trilogy; I also understand that learning looked very different in the time frame of the trilogy. A reader can learn about the lives of the warrior and the wizard, but what about the life of the mind at this time? Characters in the story can read, speak, and write mulitple languages, and clearly some have book knowledge that extends beyond this. What might learning/academia have looked like at this time? I know that Frodo learned some things from Bilbo, but what of Aragorn? Faramir? Legolas?
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 4 2008, 8:06am
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* In The Shire, "learning your letters" was unusual, and the fact that Frodo also had a smattering of Elvish was very exceptional. Merry and Pippin, being of the Shire aristocracy, would have been literate, of course.
* The Rohirrim "had no writing" but maintained an active and extensive oral history through song.
* Gondor maintained extensive archives, although it's not clear how many Gondorians beyond the Steward's family and the professional archivists actually had access to them. Faramir seems to have been unusually intellectually inclined.
* Rivendell was the main seat of learning. The immortal Elves accepted responsibility for maintaining this history of ME from the First Age, and recorded it in both documents and songs. Since Aragorn was raised there, he would have been remarkably well-educated for a Man.
* Lorien seems a lot less academic. But, then, they didn't need to be: Galadriel had been around from the beginning, had seen the Two Trees, Fëonor's rebellion and consequences, Beren & Luthien, all of that. If you wanted to know what happened, you just asked her.
(If you want to know what the last items are all about, read The Silmarillion!)
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 4 2008, 8:11am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 4 2008, 2:39pm
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I would only add that Sam was even more exceptional, in being a working-class hobbit so literate that he even knew some classical literature that his social "betters", Merry and Pippin, didn't. (Citing his recitation of the tale of Gil-Galad, here.) His father worried about his literacy as something that could get him into trouble. He probably owed his knowledge of Middle Earth classics to Bilbo, his master and mentor, writing translations of them.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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MarkH_uvm
Registered User
Jun 4 2008, 6:58pm
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I guess you can say that his literacy at the hands of Bilbo did get him in trouble. 
Of course, this is just one of the many areas where Sam was exceptional. There should have been much more of a focus on him, as he was clearly the hero of the books. 
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 4 2008, 7:05pm
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Oh, I'm a big Sam fan from way back! And a firm respecter of the value of occasionally getting into trouble.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 4 2008, 8:04pm
Post #8 of 47
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There should have been much more of a focus on him, as he was clearly the hero of the books.
But I kind of like that he doesn't get too much focus, especially at the start. That way he kind of sneaks up on you and you get to discover his heroism for yourself!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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MarkH_uvm
Registered User
Jun 4 2008, 8:06pm
Post #9 of 47
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His ego doesn't need it anyway, unlike that scene-hog Frodo...
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 4 2008, 8:24pm
Post #10 of 47
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Sam was the Romantic Hero. He went on the quest, fought the monster, came back home, put things right, and married the girl.
Frodo was the Germanic Hero. He was destined to stand on the brink of the Crack of Doom and have his finger bitten off. Despite many adversities and many temptations to turn back, he persevered and was true to his destiny.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 4 2008, 9:00pm
Post #11 of 47
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Unfortunately, we don't know much about their intellectual attainments, because they're secretive and outsiders don't know their language.
But they're clearly literate, as evinced by the Book of Mazarbul. It covered the five years of Balin's attempt to colonize Moria, and was written in many different hands using the runes of Moria and Dale as well as Elvish letters. This seems to indicate that they were not only literate but also multi-lingual and multi-cultural, or at the very least that Balin's colleagues were a diverse bunch.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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bookgirl13
Menegroth
Jun 4 2008, 9:39pm
Post #12 of 47
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I would say that my impression is that all of the cultures, even the elves in Rivendell, are very much oral cultures. The Hall of Fire at Rivendell appears to be the heart of the house and shows how important songs, lays and oral tales were even to the elves, who had lived through a lot of the times.
Faramir was unusual. I get the impression that Boromir was only functionally literate.
In RotK, one of the first ceremonial signs of Aragorn regaining the throne is the presence of a minstrel at the Field of Cormallan, who then sang in both Elvish and Westron a long and moving lay of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom.
So I think that for all the cultures, even those like the elves and the Gondorians, who valued writing, the oral tradition was even more important. Tolkien shows that by having so many songs and verses throughout his work, from almost every race and culture - apart from the orcs who did not have 'culture' to transmit.
Tom Shippey in an essay included in Roots and Branches looks at Tolkien's use of proverbs and sees within the use of them again across all races as evidence of a living oral culture.
What might learning/academia have looked like at this time?
I think that you are looking at a strong tradition in learning the lays and songs of a culture; being proficient at singing them; of being a musician and creating your own versions. Aragorn translated the Lay of Beren and Luthien into Common Speech; Bilbo wrote his own version of the story of Earendil; when Theoden asked about the Golden Wood, Gandalf sang to him. The Ents' Lore of the Free Peoples was a song, and the recognition of the Hobbits as a separate free species meant they were included in the song. Writing and books were to facilitate that oral tradition, but they had not supplanted it.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 5 2008, 12:46am
Post #13 of 47
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Right. No printing press, apparently.
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I would say that my impression is that all of the cultures, even the elves in Rivendell, are very much oral cultures. ... Writing and books were to facilitate that oral tradition, but they had not supplanted it.
Before the printing press books were real luxuries, even among the literate.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 5 2008, 3:13am
Post #14 of 47
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Goblins sang songs in "The Hobbit" so presumably orcs sing, too. Gollum sings about eating fish. Barrow-Wights sing horrid little songs to cast spells. Morgoth battles both Finrod and Luthien by contests of song. Evil does not deter anyone from singing in Middle Earth.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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bookgirl13
Menegroth
Jun 5 2008, 6:02am
Post #15 of 47
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Goblins sang songs in "The Hobbit" so presumably orcs sing, too.
That's true, though Tolkien's ideas about an oral culture probably became more complex between the writing of the two works. Looking at the how songs and poems are used amongst the "academia", then a large part of their function was the binding of a society together through a shared oral history. The orcs in LOTR are the only people where bursting into song does not happen. But that could be because we never really see orcs of the same kind interacting, it is rival groups who have to use the common speech to communicate - so no shared songs or culture between them.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 5 2008, 7:06am
Post #16 of 47
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Brief quibble: I got the impression that "learning your letters" was common in the Shire, just by no means universal. Certainly, the Hobbits communicate a lot via letters and signs and such.
I also picture Lórien as having an institution of learning led by Galadriel. Their medium of learning might have been mainly oral, more like the Rohirrim (although I'm sure the Elves are literate), but a typical Elf in Lórien would probably possess great knowledge of the world, even if he had never traveled.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 5 2008, 8:06am
Post #17 of 47
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I got the impression that "learning your letters" was common in the Shire, just by no means universal.
Everyone in the upper classes seems to have learned to read, but it seems to be an oddity for a member of the working class to learn his letters, if the Gaffer's reaction is anything to go by (...meaning no harm by it, and I hope no harm will come of it...) But you do get the impression that reading is common in the Shire, I think because (just as in 19th century English novels, for example) the emphasis is on what the upper classes do.
There's one little glimpse of the Shire school system in the chapter Minas Tirith:
"See, Master Pippin, there is no time to instruct you now in the history of Gondor; though it might have been better, if you had learned something of it, when you were still birds-nesting and playing truant in the woods of the Shire. .."
So, a fairly casual system, perhaps? Or is it just Master Pippin who found ways to skip class? I imagine something like the upper class private schools of 18th and 19th century England, with a teaching master employed to school all the youngsters in a family or group of families (especially likely since the aristocratic hobbits lived in extended family groups anyway).
It's interesting that Gandalf believes that the history of Gondor would have been taught in the Shire schools. Probably lists of the names of kings, and such like, and a bit too dry for the likes of Pippin!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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bookgirl13
Menegroth
Jun 5 2008, 1:44pm
Post #18 of 47
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There is some interesting detail regarding the differences between Boromir and Faramir in Appendix A. Denethor is particularly named as being learned in lore. Boromir delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. In contrast, Faramir was a lover of lore and of music. It is perhaps how far Gondor had descended from the glory days of the Numenorean culture where Faramir's courage was regarded as less than his brother's.
Much of the old lore of the city - "the hand of a healer", Athelas - had descended to old wives' tales. And the Warden of the Houses of Healing seems rather ineffectual and fussy, as if the old lore was an Antiquarian concern instead of being a living stream of history. Perhaps what the return of the king in Aragorn does is reinvigorate the old oral traditions, as being brought up in Rivendell, he is well-versed in the lore and songs of Middle Earth. And Arwen is a living link with the old tales and the First Age through her father.
There is also a bit in Tolkien's letters about Rivendell being a place of reflection and lore, where the history of the Ages is preserved in poetry and song.
Re the Hobbits: they were interested in genealogy and compiled family trees. And of course, Merry wrote a history of Leaf. All quite antiquarian concerns. Bilbo's Red Book of Westmarch appears to be unusual. His Translations from the Elvish seem to have been a major way Elvish and Mannish history entered into the Shire.
Technology and even perhaps science (if it involved the breaking of a thing) is less well thought of as Saruman is its major exponent that we meet in ME.
Verlyn Flieger's Interrupted Music: The Making of Tolkien's Mythology has an interesting section on the interplay between oral and written records, and how Tolkien was using the experiences of the real world in the framing of the creation of his Middle Earth histories.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 5 2008, 2:10pm
Post #19 of 47
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Tolkien has referred to Tom Bombadil as the ideal scientist. He wants to know and understand everything around him, badgers and willows, river and standing stone, but he does not proclaim himself master over any of it, concentrating all of his energy on being master of himself. So science itself is not evil, per se, merely science out of balance.
As for hobbits learning the history of Gondor, at the time the Shire was not a sovereign nation, but merely part of the larger kingdom of Arnor, sister-kingdom to Gondor. They had a mayor and a thain, not a king.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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bookgirl13
Menegroth
Jun 5 2008, 3:15pm
Post #20 of 47
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Tolkien has referred to Tom Bombadil as the ideal scientist. He wants to know and understand everything around him, badgers and willows, river and standing stone, but he does not proclaim himself master over any of it, concentrating all of his energy on being master of himself. So science itself is not evil, per se, merely science out of balance.
Tom Bombadil, yes. And science out of balance, rather than learning about the world. Elves, especially in the First Age and before, had a deep curiosity about things around them, even teaching the Ents/trees how to talk so they could find things out. The Noldor created artifacts, writing etc. There is not the separation between knowing and doing. Galadriel has the knowledge and skill to create the Elven cloaks and Lembas bread herself. They are the ideal craftsmen, learning and working with things to create beauty. And learning by working alongside the skilled, rather than through a more theoretical academic setting.
As for hobbits learning the history of Gondor, at the time the Shire was not a sovereign nation, but merely part of the larger kingdom of Arnor, sister-kingdom to Gondor. They had a mayor and a thain, not a king.
I knew as soon as I had posted the message that it was not Gondor that I meant. but rather the Northern Kingdom - whose names I could not remember. Thank you for reminding me!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 5 2008, 6:53pm
Post #21 of 47
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A lot of people equate the two, but science is the attempt to understand the world, and engineering is the attempt to do something with scientific knowledge. It was the latter that Tolkien had problems with, I think.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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acheron
Mithlond
Jun 5 2008, 7:02pm
Post #22 of 47
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A person with a science degree asks "why does it work?"
A person with an engineering degree asks "how does it work?"
A person with a business degree asks "how much will it cost?"
A person with a liberal arts degree asks "do you want fries with that?"
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 5 2008, 7:10pm
Post #23 of 47
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Engineers think that equations approximate the real world.
Scientists think that the real world approximates equations.
Mathematicians are unable to make the connection.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 5 2008, 7:30pm
Post #24 of 47
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I think Tolkien respected engineering and technology in its place, but became quite distraught about unnecessary "progress" for its own sake, without weighing consequences. He lived, after all, in the cusp of an era that invented smog, and whatever he might say, I cannot imagine that the dragon's name was all that coincidental.
He did not sound altogether disapproving, in his writings, of the engineering feats of the Numenoreans in creating the Argonath, Orthanc, or Helm's Deep. In fact, Gimli complained about the older human engineering being the better work, and saw humankind as failing in its potential. But it had to have a point and an aesthetic. In contrast, Sharkey and Ted Sandyman's "improvement" of the mill increased pollution and noise to no purpose--it had no more grist to grind than before, and did nothing to increase the prosperity of the Shire, certainly not enough to justify what it cost the Shire.
Perhaps the Silmarillion sums up Tolkien's attitude best. (In his letters, Tolkien called elvish magic their form of technology, subject to the same potential for good or evil as our own.) Feanor did a good thing in creating the Silmarils--all of the Valar acknowledged the worthiness of his craft. But when he prized them over all else, and demanded that his sons sell their souls for them in a hopeless cause, that was a great evil, and the elvish fall from grace. In the end, the only thing that Maedhros could do with his Silmaril was jump into a volcano with it.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 6 2008, 12:49am
Post #25 of 47
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I think what Tolkien did not like about the modern "scientific" outlook is its underlying arrogance, forgetting about what beauty really is and that it exists in nature, and at the same time forgetting just how powerful natural forces can be and how feeble our technology is and always will be by comparison.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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