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Felagund
Mithlond
Mar 22, 7:21pm
Post #2 of 4
(230 views)
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My first thought when reading your question was the way Tolkien describes Morgoth, in 'Myths Transformed' (HoMe X).
He [Morgoth] had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall from even his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.
Although 'the fall' appears to have been Tolkien's main point here, we do see the use 'ogre-size' as a means of illustrating scale. If we blend this with the various descriptions of Morgoth in his duel with Fingolfin or when Lúthien and Beren encounter him in Angband, then it appears that 'ogre-size' was huge indeed! Synonymous with 'giant', perhaps?
This doesn't tell us much about a 'species' called 'ogres' though. About as much as I can find in that regard is a reference in The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, where you can track back to drafts that still locate the Valar in a procreative framework. A note to 'The Fall of Gondolin' describes the Balrog Gothmog as "a son of Melko and the ogress Fluithuin". Precisely 'what' Fluithuin is, I don't know and would have to delve deeper – if indeed Tolkien ever clarified. A corrupted Maia, perhaps? There's some other passing ogre references in the The Book of Lost Tales duo, including to 'cannibal-ogres' ('The Tale of Eärendel'), who strike me as less Ainur and more Laistrygonian, the man-eating giants who appear in Homer's Odyssey.
I know that Silvered-glass is a close student of the material from this period of writing and may have thoughts or other references to hand.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CMackintosh
Ossiriand
Apr 28, 10:53am
Post #3 of 4
(99 views)
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Ogres = corrupted Maiar's offspring?
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At least that's the conclusion I drew from reading all the various texts. Probably, if corrupted Maiar were used by Melkor to breed orcs and trolls, then tales of giant orcs and trolls that occasionally appear in the HoME series of texts, are probably their offspring.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 28, 2:19pm
Post #4 of 4
(95 views)
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Ogres = corrupted Maiar's offspring?
At least that's the conclusion I drew from reading all the various texts. Probably, if corrupted Maiar were used by Melkor to breed orcs and trolls, then tales of giant orcs and trolls that occasionally appear in the HoME series of texts, are probably their offspring.
Maybe -- that might also explain the Middle-earth origin of giants in general, similar to the Biblical Nephilim. Or maybe giants are physical incarnations of elemental beings.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Jenny Blake Isabella
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