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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 13, 2:47pm
Post #1 of 44
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Four ways to finally bring Celeborn into The Rings of Power in Season 3
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Article from the homepage by Demosthenes:
No doubt about it, shoehorning Celeborn (the Wise) into The Rings of Power storyline is one of the trickiest problems that the show must navigate. Importantly, for it to matter, I feel the show has to do it soon — this coming season, even.
But as my TORn Discord colleague, Webcrawler, points out, this is a self-inflicted challenge — the showrunners did this to themselves. They consciously chose to absent Celeborn from the story (a story where, by some of Tolkien’s drafts, he plays more than a minor part in events). Thus, I would assert (I would hope) that they must have some clever idea or resolution in mind.
Once you grasp this rather important fact, it also prompts the question: “Why did they choose to do this?”.
Hold that thought, we’ll return to it later. First, I’d like to posit four different scenarios for finally bringing Celeborn into the story.
Of course, keep in mind this is my own theory-crafting, not set rumours.
The article continues at the link.
Interesting that Demosthenes cites the version of re-embodiment presented in "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" (HOME Volume X) in which "[a] houseless fëa that chose or was permitted to return to life was typically only able to be reembodied through childbirth." Tolkien seems to have later abandoned this reincarnation in favor of a re-embodiment where the subject is returned do a physical body in adult form that is identical to their original one. This later version is one I find much more preferable.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 13, 2:50pm)
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 9:22am
Post #2 of 44
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at the impulse to run to some of the more abscure of Tolkien's writings to look for "answers" for why Rings of Power did things past or what it might do with things still future.
When you're a writer, ultimately you have to WRITE. You can't afford to sit there wafting through Tolkien - especially in writings like these, that the show doesn't have the rights to - and ponder how they could plot the show in a way that won't run afoul on footnote 42 in The Nature of Middle-earth.
There's roughly 11 pages' worth of broad descriptions in The Lord of the Rings relating to the subject matter of this show, for a show of a projected length of some 42 hours or more. The writers, having the gist of this material in their heads, are probably just sitting there writing away rather than constantly stopping in their tracks to consult the scripture.
The reason for excising Celeborn was a scriptwriting reason, and the reason and manner of his return will surely be likewise motivated for the same reasons. It was actually my first Fellowship of Fans video where I observed - we had already had indications the show would be Galadriel-centric - that having the protagonist be married is a little unusual. So they made her husband an absentee.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 9:28am)
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 1:09pm
Post #3 of 44
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The other problem is balancing the wants and needs of us hardcore book people with the wants and needs of the more casual TV fan.
As a hardcore book person myself I feel like a bit of an anomaly because I don't really care about a lot of things I've seen other fans caring about online. I don't really care about Celeborn - even if the last episode of the last season dropped him in I'd shrug.
What I do care about is who the Ring Wraiths will be and when we'll finally see the big setpieces get built (The Minas's, Orthanc, Argonath etc) Also - I want the Last Alliance!
I think the show should lazer focus in on the rings and ringbearers going forward. If I was writing I would make Isildur want one of the rings but never be offered one and his jealousy and anger and resentment grows. Finally, against all odds this little coward character happens to be in the right place at the right time and cuts the ring from Sauron's hand and it destroys him.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 2:46pm
Post #4 of 44
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The reason for excising Celeborn was a scriptwriting reason, and the reason and manner of his return will surely be likewise motivated for the same reasons.
The reason was to support their Girl Boss version of Galadriel - all the rage of the day now becoming an overcompensating cliché. I won't believe there was a master plan for Celeborn. I would believe their motivation is someone telling them to fix their mistakes.
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 3:58pm
Post #5 of 44
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RE: "won't believe there was a master plan for Celeborn"
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I don't care for Clark's Galadriel in the least and there are many reasons for that, but I really don't want the discussion to devolve into the reductive level of "Girl Boss" and things.
But you DO make a very important point that I forgot to address: this notion that it's "all part of the plan." I mean, yeah, the showrunners are on the record for having sketched what they wanted out of the five seasons and what they intend to close the show out on.
But the finer points of the plot, like how to bring Celeborn back in? I see no reason to believe the specifics of that were worked out in any detail from the outset. They decided to keep Celeborn at bay to allow Galadriel to be something of a "free agent." But I'm not at all sure that they have been sitting on exactly how they intend to bring the guy back.
Creators always like to exaggerate the extent to which they have things figured out in advance. Certainly, in the case of Rings of Power the biggest sequitur in this regard is Eregion: they clearly didn't have the foresight to design the city with the siege in mind, because they had to redesign it quite considerably in season two to make the siege remotely plausible.
That sort of thing always happens on some level: Erebor gets a small facelift in The Battle of the Five Armies, in order to accomodate the new scene where the Dwarves topple a Dwarven statue to destroy the causeway: those statues were not there previously. But that's a relatively minor change.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 3:59pm)
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 4:44pm
Post #6 of 44
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They decided to keep Celeborn at bay to allow Galadriel to be something of a "free agent." But I'm not at all sure that they have been sitting on exactly how they intend to bring the guy back.
I'm sure they haven't. But I'm not sure whether it was intended to keep him out or "we'll decide what to do later, maybe."
I can go with "free agent," as it is nearly synonymous with my intended meaning. Galadriel is unencumbered by a man. Well, I guess I should say a male since "Man" or "Men" is a different thing in Middle-earth. ;)
The one and only true example of a real master plan is J. Michael Straczynski's Babylon 5, complete with "trap doors" in advance planning for possible loss(es) of actors. For shows like "Lost" or "Flash Forward" there should be a story escrow required ahead of any production to maintain audience faith that showrunners are not just doing things on the fly, that "mystery boxes" will be satisfactorily resolved, and any cancellation would result in the release of the full story escrow for audience closure. We don't really have that trust for Rings of Power despite all the books because the rights are so tragically limited.
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 6:55pm
Post #7 of 44
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The material really is very limited
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It's no more than eleven pages (and I'm being VERY generous here), all of which are cast in broad descriptions. I mean, the "competing" projects of The War of the Rohirrim and The Hunt for Gollum are also based on sparse material. But with those projects and others like them, there are two very significant differences:
one, the material is a little less broad in nature. We have not just the plot incident but also who the dramatis personae are and at the very least some rudimentary sense of what they did within the scope of the events and sometimes even a semblence of a motivation. By contrast, with Rings of Power we're almost entirely confined to plot incident: the only character that is given anything resembling action and motivation is Pharazon, really.
Second, those projects are a single feature-film each: not a 42+ hour show (and again I'm being generous: the show will probably run closer to 43 hours). At the length that Rings of Power is projected to be, it's relationship to Tolkien is really that of an original Tolkien-esque fantasy property like Willow is to Tolkien.
Obviously, an "original, Tolkien-esque fantasy property" can also be very succesfull, but if we accept that part of the reason that the best Tolkien adaptations have succeeded as well as they had, is that they could "bottle" some inimitable, Tolkienian appeal, then this never could have applied to Rings of Power. Combined with the copycat approach to the visuals - especially in season two - it gives the whole thing the feeling of a lookalike.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 6:56pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Nov 14, 7:25pm
Post #8 of 44
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the story was all planned out - for three seasons. But it was such a hit that the TV company wanted more, so the writers had to change their plans. That's why the later seasons felt like they were going nowhere - because they were, essentially, fillers.
IMO, that's why The Hobbit trilogy also feels like it's been baulked-out with unnecessary filler, due to the studio requiring it to change from two films to three.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 7:34pm
Post #9 of 44
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This will be a terrible aside but...
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due to the studio requiring it to change from two films to three.
This internet speculation has no truth to it whatsoever. Everyone involved is clear that the idea was hatched between Jackson and his co-writers (Boyens and Walsh) while reviewing the mounting footage between May 2012 and June. At any rate, it was done almost entirely by recutting the films rather than adding new scenes whole-cloth: that much can be demonstrated from the callsheets.
If you look back to interviews as far back as the del Toro period you'll find him saying how "it's barely containable in two movies" or how Mike Mignola came down to vist and saw plans for what he said looked like "a giant, 16-hour movie."
Also in the del Toro period, there was talk of almost 400 days of shooting at one point: Jackson says he first had a suspicion they might need more than two films when they worked on the schedule and it came out as 250 days of shooting...
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 7:42pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Nov 14, 7:47pm
Post #10 of 44
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Thanks for that info - I hadn't come across it before.
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What a pity. I know that PJ is a director that likes to create his stories in the editing suite but he really needs the constraints of a tight script to sharpen his focus.
Ah well. I can't point the finger at the studio anymore! 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 7:56pm
Post #11 of 44
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I mean, it's symptomatic of his entire filmography
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Bad Taste was going to be a 25 minute short: it ended up feature length.
The Lord of the Rings was at different points a single 4-hour movie or two 2.5-hour movies. Even in his August 1998 Q and A you find Jackson deluding himself that the trilogy would clock in at seven hours.
King Kong is a remake of a 100-minute film. The extended cut is 90 minutes LONGER than that.
His Beatles documentary turned into a...fancy that, trilogy, plus the "Now and Then" piece.
If you enter into the spirit of his monumentalism, it can really work. But even something like The Battle of the Five Armies was something like 50 pages between the relevant chapters of The Hobbit and materials from the appendices, all for a 152 minute film (without credits). The Hunt for Gollum is something like 8-11 pages for a 2-3 hour film. Rings of Power is like 11 pages for 2500 minutes...
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 8:04pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 14, 8:34pm
Post #12 of 44
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Even Guillermo del Toro originally planned on adapting the narrative of The Hobbit as a single film, plus the "bridge" film that would have covered events outside of the narrative of the book (and leading up to The Lord of the Rings). It was while he was still slated to direct that the two-part version came into being where the break would have come after the company escapes from the Woodland Realm. At least I think that's where the first part would have stopped. That was the plan under Jackson before the third film was greenlit.
Back to Celeborn, I personally dislike the idea of having Galadriel's husband being killed and then re-embodied in Valinor, ti might be the best solution for the hole that Payne & McKay have dug for themselves.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 14, 8:37pm)
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 8:45pm
Post #13 of 44
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It's a little more complex than that
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The idea of doing two films, covering both The Hobbit and events leading up to The Lord of the Rings was hatched by Jackson, as early as 2002.
They were, however, not two discrete works: the idea was to include at least the tail end of The Hobbit in the "bridge" film. At one point in working with del Toro the idea was that film one would be The Hobbit (and the bulk of the Dol Guldur storyline) up to Smaug's death: film two would conclude The Hobbit in its first half (so, basically Jackson's The Battle of the Five Armies) and then proceed with whatever bits of interstitial material they envisioned for inclusion at the time.
From this point, the contents of The Hobbit were "edging out" the interstitial materials, to the point that by early 2009 the project could only be described as a two-parter of The Hobbit: that's when del Toro said it's "barely containable as two movies", and Mignola's comments were made shortly afterwards as well.
It should be said that elements of this bridge film endured well into shooting. It didn't just vanish. And in 2027, it's coming back with a vengenance!
ANYWAY...
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 8:52pm)
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 8:50pm
Post #14 of 44
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My kingdom for a chance to see Del Toro's Hobbit movies!
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 14, 8:51pm
Post #15 of 44
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I think I've heard some of this before, but I couldn't recall it until I read your post. I know I've read more than one version of these events. Thanks for the clarification!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 14, 8:56pm
Post #16 of 44
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Ironically, some of that is to be glimpsed in Rings of Power season one
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My kingdom for a chance to see Del Toro's Hobbit movies!
Season one of the show hired quite a few people who were contracted for del Toro's version: producer Callum Greene (also season two), concept artists Wayne Barlowe and Eduardo Pena, and costume designer Kate Hawley. I think some of Hawley's more outlandish costumes, especially for the Dwarves, are the kind of thing del Toro would have attempted.
Personally, I'm unenthused: it's easy to romanticize a version of a movie that really only exists in one's imagination, but looking at what we know he was going to do, I think del Toro was always the wrong choice - Jackson's wrong choice. Most things about his version - that is, the visuals and to some extent the casting - seem utterly bizarre. I wrote about his version extensively here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1kud3rr/guillermo_del_toros_the_hobbit_perhaps_more_a/
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 14, 9:07pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 14, 9:05pm
Post #17 of 44
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I still want to see some good images of the 6-foot maquette that was produced of del Toro's Smaug.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Nov 14, 10:01pm
Post #18 of 44
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Especially after he mentioned here on the discussion boards that Smaug's shape was influenced by his environment.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 10:02pm
Post #19 of 44
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Back to Celeborn, I personally dislike the idea of having Galadriel's husband being killed and then re-embodied in Valinor, ti might be the best solution for the hole that Payne & McKay have dug for themselves.
This gets my predictive vote, assuming his return, and I've been right on predictions so far.
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 10:48pm
Post #20 of 44
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Celeborn getting the Glorfindel treatment
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This theory had an airing in October 2024 on this board. Suspect we weren't the first either but it's still a good prediction, I reckon!
You can find the thread here, if I've not messed up the link:
Celeborn getting the Glorfindel treatment
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 14, 11:13pm
Post #21 of 44
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This theory had an airing in October 2024 on this board. Suspect we weren't the first either but it's still a good prediction, I reckon! You can find the thread here, if I've not messed up the link: Celeborn getting the Glorfindel treatment
I recall it - interesting. In that discussion, Michelle says:
Given the huge weight of Galadriel in the narrative to date; his character, if it actually remerges with that name, will need a substantial backstory flashback with Galadriel, his death and journey to the present.
The entire scene of Gandalf's return in The Two Towers movie, however, is 4m:46s with much lead-up before "I come back to you now at the turn of the tide:"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhuhrvX4olg
And the essential dialog that could just as well be mirrored by Celeborn in Rings of Power is just 48 seconds long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgTj2z05-8
Depending on the quality of the scriptwriting, it could be anywhere from a short shrift lip-service hand-wave to something better like Gandalf's return. In any case, it doesn't require much, and the story investment could better be what happens after his return (if any). We know they made a mistake, and they know we know, so let's just move on without overcompensating.
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cats16
Gondolin
Nov 15, 12:41am
Post #22 of 44
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"what my best guess is" post instead of a "want I want" kind of post -
When Celeborn was initially not mentioned in the show, I thought the showrunners decided to shift the Galadriel/Celeborn storyline to be much, much later into the timeline of Middle-earth. I.e. they meet in somewhere like Eregion. Which, in some ways, might make sense dramatically for the show if the characters are young and impulsive in the pilot and have much to journey through, in a situation where you want Celeborn's character to play an increasingly important role, but not for a couple of seasons. This wouldn't be what you'd do for a movie, but TV loves to introduce key characters after a couple of years with the main original cast.
Then he was mentioned as being dead later in S1, after which I thought they could pursue a dynamic out of something like the movie Casablanca (for lack of a better comparison at-hand), where Ilsa Lund believed that that her husband, resistance leader Victor Laszlo, was dead, though in reality he wasn't. This path would require some exposition for the new character when introduced, but a new season is the kind of place where that feels natural as it expands the world beyond the characters we know (which, again, TV has more latitude to do vs. movies).
In my observation, the writing team doesn't want to disappoint fans with the ultimate outcome of major plot points, but they will take the liberty to get there as they please. Perhaps they tried to slot Celeborn into earlier seasons but felt it took away from what they wanted for Galadriel's character (and possibly Elrond's too). The average viewer (meaning not Tolkien fans) wasn't missing him in S1 and S2, so the writers may feel that introducing him at the appropriate moment down the road raises the stakes for Galadriel's journey. I.e. she's not the person he knew when he last knew her, and the conflict that could result.
I'm riffing here of course, and I don't follow any of the leaks in between seasons, so perhaps some of this is moot. 
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 15, 1:40am
Post #23 of 44
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This theory had an airing in October 2024 on this board. Suspect we weren't the first either but it's still a good prediction, I reckon! You can find the thread here, if I've not messed up the link: Celeborn getting the Glorfindel treatment
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Nov 15, 5:25pm
Post #24 of 44
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Agreed! My view is similar to what it was back in 2024: Celeborn will return (re-embodied), with some kind of message from the West for Galadriel, perhaps along the lines of 'You're going to face a choice at the end of all this, which will have dramatic consequences for you and the future of Middle-earth'. Galadriel chooses to stick around Middle-earth for another Age but it means she helps out Frodo at a delicate time for the Fellowship. Yep, it messes with the 'when' of Galadriel's choice in the source material but then again, it's hardly the wildest of deviations on display!
Flashback for Celeborn? Hopefully there'll be something. Killed in the Sack of Doriath or generically in the War of Wrath, perhaps?
I am very much primed to be proven woefully wrong when the show resumes though!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Nov 15, 7:14pm
Post #25 of 44
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I think that after the first two seasons it's pretty clear the showrunners aren't putting a huge priority on WHEN things happen.
I get that this grinds some gears in the fandom but I think it's the first and most essential step to any adaptation of the 2nd age. Not just condensing time but rearranging it a bit to make a better story. Let's call it the BRAVEHEART (1995) effect. Do you want an historically accurate story or a compelling one? Sometimes we have to choose.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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