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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 3, 12:48pm
Post #176 of 203
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Thanks for this helpful analysis! What it reinforces for me is that it probably not very productive to imagine there are distinct schools or types of magical practitioners. Not like there are in some Tolkien-influenced things - Dungeons & Dragons, or World of Warcraft, say - where a Warlock is distinctly different from a Wizard or a Cleric, or other types. In such games or stories, the player (or reader) is told The Rules, because the scope, limitation and costs of magic are part of the game (or plot); and that is how we have fun in that particular make-believe world. The author Brandon Sanderson has a series of blogposts (starting here) about what he calls 'hard magic' (rule-based, explicit) and 'soft magic' (giving "the reader a sense of tension as they’re never certain what dangers—or wonders—the characters will encounter. Indeed, the characters themselves never truly know what can happen and what can’t"). I see that Tolkien is a 'softie' (if you like and want to use Sanderson's system). But as far as we can infer guidelines (like rules but all qualified with "except when...") I think you are right that:
- Some people can't do magic at all. Men for example...Oh except when Men can make magical swords; or. Or when Isildur curses the oathbreakers. Or possibly if our Witch King Tar-rarabumpsieay was a witch before he was a wraith. (No idea whether we can know about that last one, myself).
- If you are able to do magic, then often you should not -
- Motive is at the heart of things, as you rightly say, Felagund. Bad magic is "associated with 'machinery', in the sense of it being used to "bulldoze both people and things".
- And maybe you shouldn't mess with things that are beyond you (Gandalf criticises Saruman explicitly for keeping his palantir secret and using it; and it was a mistake for people to accept Sauron's Rings).
- Motive also matters should you happen upon a magical item (Gandalf is pleased that Frodo wants to take the Ring and guard it, and says that this will offer Frodo some protection). Sam gets a very big response from Galadriel's phial, andthat seems to be about motive (as in 'intention' or maybe faith).
It might be productive to think about how or whether the consequences of attempting magic interact with what is 'meant to happen' in Middle-earth. But I don't think I can propose any very concrete ideas right now.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 3, 12:49pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 3, 1:03pm
Post #177 of 203
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Now you have explained it, it all makes perfect sense
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The old riddle (to which "a rugby team" is the answer) goes:
What has thirty legs, two wings and one odd-shaped ball? Clearly the Black Captain is after Frodo because he is in possession of the One odd-shaped ball to rule them all, and therefore may be tackled. I now also understand that when Glorfindel shouts Noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth! to his horse it should more correctly be translated as "knock on, knock on, Asfaloth!" Glorfindel is appealing for a penalty kick. This would presumably 'convert' Frodo between the rocks marking the pathway to the Ford (which stand in for the rugby posts here) over to safety on the other side of the river.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 3, 6:59pm
Post #178 of 203
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Anyone who reads HOME knows the LOTR on bookshelves is
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the de-rugbied version. Tolkien, every smart person knows, was really writing about rugby, but his Evil Publisher deemed the market for readers to be too small and thus invented a bunch of fantasy nonsense to broaden the mass market appeal. Recovered from the archives:
‘Don’t be a fool! What have you heard, and why did you listen?’ Gandalf’s eyes flashed and his brows stuck out like bristles. ... ‘Well, sir,’ said Sam dithering a little. ‘I heard a deal that I didn’t rightly understand, about ruck, goal, and tackle, and Mr. Bilbo, sir, and hookers, and a blood replacement, and – and All Blacks, sir. I listened because I couldn’t help myself, if you know what I mean. Lor bless me, sir, but I do love tales of that sort. And I believe them too, whatever Ted may say. All Blacks, sir! I would dearly love to see them. Couldn’t you take me to see All Blacks, sir, when you go?’ ...
‘The team of Sauron is ended!’ said Gandalf. ‘The Ring-bearer has scored his goal and won the Six Nations.’ And as the Captains gazed south to the Stadium of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky in the shape of an oval ball with flat ends, covered with sweat and mud and grime, the vomit of rugby. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening dropkick, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell as the final score was announced.
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Lissuin
Doriath

Mar 3, 9:19pm
Post #179 of 203
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I do hope Ataahua has been following this subthread. /
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Mar 5, 5:28am
Post #180 of 203
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What I haven't been able to find and am surprised not to have is Tolkien using the word 'warlock' to describe a magic-user who is in the 'evil camp'. Particularly given the Old English etymology: waerloga ('oath-breaker' or 'deceiver'). A warlock is sometimes described as a male witch and given that Tolkien put down his own 'purist' marker in regard of 'witch' being perfectly applicable to males and females, perhaps he saw no need to throw in warlocks as well. The word 'enchanter' doesn't appear either, as far as I can make out. Even though 'enchantment' does occur occasionally, for example in the arts exercised by Lúthien and Eöl. If someone turns up a mention to either word in the legendarium please post it! Not in the legendarium, but rather amusing (or at least intriguing) in the context of this discussion: of course we all know that JRRT worked on the OED. Specifically:
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892-1973) Member of Bradley’s editorial staff from 1919-1920, Tolkien’s contribution to the OED was in the range waggle-warlock. After his stint on the Dictionary, Tolkien went on to publish many works on Old and Middle English, later taking up professorships in Anglo-Saxon and English Language and Literature at Oxford. Tolkien is best known today for his fantasy fiction, most notably The Hobbit (1937) and the Lord of the Rings trilogy (1954-55). (Emphasis mine) (From https://www.oed.com/...-to-the-oed/?tl=true)
The Passing of Mistress Rose My historical novels Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there? - A Room With a View
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 5, 11:22pm
Post #181 of 203
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pax Serendipita :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Mar 6, 2:05pm
Post #182 of 203
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I'll make sure she (and others) does. //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 6, 4:52pm
Post #183 of 203
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Wow, I had not realised the extent of this!
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Tolkien, every smart person knows, was really writing about rugby, but his Evil Publisher deemed the market for readers to be too small and thus invented a bunch of fantasy nonsense to broaden the mass market appeal. I suppose the reason it is not more widely known is that most of this material comes from papers that had been sold off to a secretive collector before Christopher Tolkien had a chance to study them. And so they couldn't receive the HoMe treatment until he could arrange to borrow them for a while. That's why the rugby stuff ends up in the seldom-read supplementary volumes, HoMe, A Loan, and HoMe, A Loan II. Among the things I liked are that bit about Tolkien's rugby captain making various noises, such as telephone sounds, to tell the team what he wanted, but without the opposition being able to understand. Hence "one ring to rolling maul", for example.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 6, 5:00pm)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 5:58pm
Post #184 of 203
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AAAAAAaaaaaaaauuuuuugggghhhhhh!
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(Of course, you left out the part about two of the main characters' actual last name, Rugby, after trying and discarding Kirby, Derby, Weatherby, and Willoughby. Baggins was a compromise, since at least it kept the "B" and the "G" present in most of these.)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 6, 9:54pm
Post #185 of 203
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OMG. Serious this time: There is/was a rugby player named Yutaka Baggins Yazawa
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So life is imitating art/humor. Played for Tokyo Crusaders with bio here (scroll down to find or see below) that is mildly humorous:
Yutaka Baggins Yazawa – Prop/HookerYutaka started playing the game when he moved to the UK to study in the last decade of last century. Continued to play rugby mostly by way of penance for his debauched lifestyle in his 20’s. After 11 years in and about London, playing for various social sides, he went on to play in Hong Kong for 9 years at HKFC. His longevity as a player is only as remarkable as his consistent mediocrity as a player. Then again, one looks to an aging front-row player for reliability and immovability, rather than for a flash of genius and speed. That is his excuse. In any event. Yutaka feels honoured and privileged to be a part of the Cru family, and considers himself the luckiest man in the world, without having an incurable disease named after him. - Nationality: Japanese
- Occupation: Lawyer
- Age: Old Enough
- Height: Short Enough
- Weight: Heavy Enough
(found by google of "baggins rugby")
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 10:50pm
Post #186 of 203
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revolving around Tolkien, looping back upon itself, tugged on relentlessly by the Baggins Constant.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 7, 5:52pm
Post #187 of 203
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To the tune of ..."Baggins' Groove"?
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To the tune of ..."Baggins' Groove"?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 7, 6:47pm
Post #188 of 203
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I wonder what incident led to that nickname... :) //
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 7, 10:16pm
Post #190 of 203
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Oh, reality keeps intruding on my jokes: Tolkien's real-life rugby experience
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I know almost nothing about rugby and was just making stuff up after googling sites on rugby jargon, but here your photo of Tolkien in a school rugby team is fleshed out by his experience playing for them and writing about injuries, as well as his own little poem parody. Pretty interesting material to round out our one of our favorite authors who's almost always depicted as either a WWI soldier or an Oxford scholar but almost never as an athlete. From this link:
A genuine link to rugby in Tolkien's literary work is demonstrated through the publication of his first poem, The Battle of the Eastern Field, which was printed in the King Edward's School Chronicle in 1911. The poem describes a house rugby match in a parody of epic literature. It is a tongue-in-cheek account that is modelled on the then-renowned Lays of Ancient Rome by Lord Macaulay. Here, Tolkien's rival school houses are depicted as Roman clans dressed in red and green. Their 'battle' is described by Tolkien as follows: 'Now round in thickest throng there pressed These warriors red and green, And many a dashing charge was made, And many a brave deed seen. Full oft a speeding foeman Was hurtled to the ground, While forward and now backward, Did the ball of fortune bound: Till Sekhet marked the slaughter, And tossed his flaxen crest And towards the Green-clad Chieftain Through the carnage pressed; Who fiercely flung by Sekhet, Lay low upon the ground, Till a thick wall of liegemen Encompassed him around.' (Excerpt of poem reproduced with the kind permission of the King Edward's Foundation Archive.) Whilst we may not know the true extent of Tolkien's rugby prowess, it is clear that rugby played an important role in his formative years. The scars and memories lasted him a lifetime and have left us with a fantastic piece of poetry in The Battle of the Eastern Field. Injuries, captaincy, and sounds like a hobbit (compensating for small size with his ferocity):
In a letter to his son, Michael, in 1937, Tolkien recalled his early rugby playing days, stating that he was rejected at first due to his lighter frame, but that he 'decided to make up for (his) weight by (legitimate) ferocity.' Tolkien became house captain at the end of his first season and was soon thereafter awarded his colours. The scholar must have been a decent player, as later in life when meeting old classmates, he was surprised to learn that he was primarily remembered for his 'rugger-prowess' at school. Tolkien's rugby days were not without drama. In the same letter to his son he recalls how he 'got rather damaged - among things having (his) tongue nearly cut out.' Some attribute this accident to Tolkien's reputation later in life as an indistinct lecturer; however, others claim that he had always spoken in such a manner. Additional references to rugby from Tolkien speak of long-lasting injuries. In another letter to Michael in 1963 he states, 'I am getting nearly as unbendable as an Ent. My catarrh is always with me (and will be) - it goes back to a nose broken (and neglected) in schoolboy Rugby.'
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 7, 10:17pm
Post #191 of 203
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PS. Why did we discuss the Witch-king when there was all this rugby lore to examine? //
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 9, 10:52am
Post #192 of 203
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Pretty interesting material to round out our one of our favorite authors who's almost always depicted as either a WWI soldier or an Oxford scholar but almost never as an athlete.
Yes, I agree. I think it's good sometimes to get beyond the familiar images and recordings of Tolkien as a genial, pipe-puffing old Professor, or as a WWI veteran. Public schools* in Tolkien's time (and I think still today) could be absolutely fanatical about team sports, especially cricket and rugby. Rugby was thought to (and maybe does) promote toughness and competitiveness, as well as teamwork and a code of honour. (The sport's core principles are stated as Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship). In some public schools during that period (I don't know about Tolkien's), considerably more emphasis was placed of 'building character' than on academic achievement, and team sports were seen as a way of doing this. A comprehensive explanation would also include a lot about the English class system, but I think we can do without that right now. But there is something we should note. Young Tolkien, let's remember, was an outsider to English society in many ways: minority religion, foreign-sounding name, background in the struggling middle-class, orphan dependent upon the money of his guardian Fr Morgan. Geeky, morover. But given the status of team sports in the school system and among boys, I suspect that all those possible excuses for bullying or ostracism would be trumped by being a good rugby player, and you woudl be a figure of admiration, your eccentricities excused. Besides which, teammates tend to close ranks pretty quickly if someone from the outside is taking liberties. So I don't know - it would be a biographical research exercise I'm not going to undertake - but it's possible that we are looking at an enthusiastic athlete; or at someone who to begin with at least, was finding a way to survive and thrive in a society in which he could not automatically assume a place. ----- *Public school here being in the England-and-Wales sense - a fee-charging school that is "public" only from a historical schooling context in the sense of being open to pupils irrespective of locality, denomination or paternal trade or profession or family affiliation with governing or military service. In Tolkien's era students would typically 'board' - i.e. live at school. Confusingly perhaps, a school funded from taxation in England and Wales is a 'state school'.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 9, 5:05pm
Post #193 of 203
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I do wonder how much impact class had on education at the time
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As a repeat watcher of Downton Abbey, which naturally makes me an expert on everything, I am repeatedly struck by all the limitations the aristocracy put on themselves, opportunities for "success" that minorities clamor for now, which is quite a reversal. For example, women are supposed to "Build character" by learning polite manners and conversation, dancing, hosting, obeying men, dressing well, etc, but academic achievement??? No. And while there were different expectations of men, they weren't supposed to become scientists, scholars, businessmen, or anything requiring academic rigor which all seemed tawdry and middle class, though apparently sports prowess was OK. So go to Eton and Oxford, yes, obviously, go there to check off the boxes and play sports and make social connections, but don't emulate Sir Isaac Newton or Lord Byron or Lord Dunsany. Instead marry well, be respectable, keep your affairs discreet, etc., but do not get a Nobel Prize or Fields Medal or anything else that an ambitious university student of today might aspire to and consider "success." And of course not every university student today does aspire to more than beer, parties, romance, more parties, etc, but I'd still wager there was a seismic shift from the scholastic world you describe 100 years ago and today.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 27, 8:43pm
Post #194 of 203
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meddling in the affairs of wizards, necromancers, sorcerers, prestidigitators
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This is a really remarkable thread and takes a bit of reading to get caught up on. I realize I’m arriving late, but a thought or two. Firstly: do we have a hard date on the founding of Angmar? I can think of references here and there to Angmar being traveled to, engaged or activated, but I never did note any point in the timeline before which there definitively was no such realm. Going from memory here though. From a young age I interpreted the phrase “Witch-King of Angmar long ago” as a description of who the boss Nazgûl was as a living man, *before* anybody gave him a magic ring, and while I am often wrong and have been forced to abandon beloved misreadings before, I would always be careful to maintain space for that possibility unless definitively shown that the author has foreclosed it. Secondly, but only secondly because my mind is like a Jack Russell that smells squirrel, I would add to Felagund’s roundup that the Mouth of Sauron is fleetingly described as a sorcerer, which has always been one of those tantalizingly scanty indications of magic practiced by anyone other than Istari. Thirdly*, I was fascinated by the passage about the Witch-King’s state of mind after Weathertop. I had never seen this and I love it and take it right to heart. I would have said, we were told Gandalf’s (or Aragorn’s?) speculation that the Nazgûl withdrew for a time because they expected Frodo to succumb to the morgul-knife in short order, which is a fair guess (though seemingly off base), but we should also remember the very real (in-story) potency of kingly blood and its martial mettle, and the Numenorean track record of defeating the forces of Mordor, when considering what Aragorn was able to do below Weathertop. A flaming stick, after all, was good enough for Thorin to give as good as he got to three whole trolls, for a moment or two at least, and that’s because unlike all his retinue, he’s da king. But maybe that also is apart from the point. Maybe it mattered more that the defenseless pygmy bumpkin the Nazgûl were briefed on turned out to be a well-connected scrapper with a command of the language of the Noldor and a custom-made anti-witch-king weapon inexplicably in his hand. That’s a point to think about. What else? Maybe I forget. Long thread. Oh, well I was going to say, “great Numenorean lords” could be taken as great from Sauron’s perspective; that is, great on the scale of Numenorean lords you see around this continent. I do agree that the creation of Nazgûl was more a perquisite of Ring creation, not the central point; beheading the opposing nations by enslaving their leadership and possibly mind-controlling them into perverting the entire government seems more the play. *see above.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Mar 27, 10:00pm
Post #195 of 203
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the Witch-realm of Angmar - foundation
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Good to see you uncle Iorlas! And I agree, this is a really remarkable thread! Your question about the foundation of Angmar - spookily this came up on Tuesday in the noWiz's 'Last Alliance' thread. In my 'more Ringwraith musings' post there, I referred to the source material for the beginning of the Witch-realm of Angmar ('Appendix B', LotR):
[entry for c. 1300] The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. By this point even the youngest of the humans who became a Nazgûl would have been over 2,000 years old, and therefore the Witch-king of Angmar couldn't have been a 'pre-Ring of Power' living man, I reckon. He's also described specifically as one of the Nazgûl, a 'ringwraith' by definition in the Black Speech. 'Appendix A' further fixes the foundation timeline:
It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at this time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. The timeline for King Malvegil's reign is III.1272-1349, ie. within the c. III.1300 range stated in 'The Tale of Years' ('Appendix B'). My reading is that it isn't so much that Tolkien foreclosed the possibility you flag but rather that he doesn't appear to have opened it in the first place. All of that said, as someone who has beloved misreadings of their own, I urge you keep cherishing yours, as I do mine! And I agree, the various insights into the Witch-king's thinking, his dismay, uncertainty and so on are just priceless.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 27, 11:44pm
Post #196 of 203
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the only realm that Team Sauron created from scratch to oppose Arnor and Gondor, at least as far as we know. I was thinking that Gondor's problems came from known, existing realms in Harad and Rhun, but Arnor was polished off by this bunch of imported Bad Guys, who then disappeared soon after Arnor was destroyed. It's one of those things about Sauron's power that seems disturbing in an existential way: he can summon the resources and men to populate Angmar in sufficient numbers to challenge the often combined forces of Elves and Men in Eriador. It's something Sauron could do that the Good Guys could not. *Just a pondering point.*
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 28, 2:34am
Post #197 of 203
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“comes north to Angmar” wasn’t a construction that proves there was no preexisting Angmar to arrive in, but to say that Angmar “arose” during a specific reign is depressingly definitive. I do so like it when you can leave room for sorcerous doings other than the central plot-moving ones like Rings and Istari. Thank you for the clarity, all the same! And for all your delightful activity. Always a good sign for any thread.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 28, 9:48pm
Post #198 of 203
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It's one of those things about Sauron's power that seems disturbing in an existential way: he can summon the resources and men to populate Angmar in sufficient numbers to challenge the often combined forces of Elves and Men in Eriador. It's something Sauron could do that the Good Guys could not. I have often noticed in fact that the Numenorean kingdoms seem to be treated by the author as inexplicably emptying of people and blowing away entirely when the kingship fails—and puffing up with human population again just as the king is reinstalled correctly. This is narrated or at least promised with respect to both southern and northern kingdoms, as a certain consequence of Elessar’s ascendancy; that people would arrive. The empty houses of Minas Tirith will gentrify. The deserted leagues of wold and wood between the Shire and Rivendell will be farmed by an influx of decent folk who have been waiting… in what wings? What was it Squire said? I don’t remember if it was this thread or the Last Alliance one. About Tolkien respecting realism and practical chains of consequence until the story needed him to ignore all that.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Mar 29, 12:55am
Post #199 of 203
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I regret that I didn't spot it sooner! :D /
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo My LOTR fan-fiction
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Lissuin
Doriath

Mar 29, 11:57pm
Post #200 of 203
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the RR has seemed to be very busy of late. In addition to the always erudite and thought-provoking book-related offerings one expects, delightful tangents abound...as one would expect from the usual list of instigators. Do try to keep up, woman!
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