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Interim Post (;D): Wiki-pedia--thoughts on the Witch-King.
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noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 23, 1:59pm

Post #126 of 203 (7602 views)
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Hmm, so "Act Normal for Eriador" - a familiar scene with added internal monologue... [In reply to] Can't Post

‘No, Mr. Baggins has gone away. Went this morning, and my Sam went with him: anyway all his stuff went."

What does the stupid creature mean? Baggins has left? (let's not worry about what a 'Sam' is for the moment or why Baggins stole it). Ask the creature questions! Remember, The Boss said "Act Normal for Eriador."

"Yes, sold out and gone, I tell’ee."

What a shame "Act Normal for Eriador." probably does not include "slay annoying creatures with torture." Ask more polite questions. But, by The Eye, these Eriadorians stink. And yet, the smell reminds me of something... something to do with butter and garlic, and maybe lemon-juice. Or...now what was "tempura" again?.
But Stop It!! Focus! You no longer care for such mortal pleasures. You are only acting normal for Eriador to find out where Baggins is and capture the Ring. And nothing else.

'No, I can’t give no message. Good night to you!’

Wish it 'good night'. Normal for Eriador, remember. Now walk. Walk down the hill. No, do not wonder how mortals cope with shuch a stupid design as knees. Just walk. Here is Nubbin. Mount up on Nubbin like a Normal For Eriador Rider, and head for that stupid Bucklebury place.


Even if you could 'murder a bacon sandwich right now'.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 23, 2:01pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 23, 5:11pm

Post #127 of 203 (7574 views)
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The real boggle at Weathertop [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo brandished the photo of the Witch-king ex-wife before his eyes, and the Nazgul was boggled at the notion of several centuries of unpaid alimony. Frodo also had a photo of "Nazgul gone wild in Vegas" as backup, hence their immense fear and boggling.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 23, 5:50pm

Post #128 of 203 (7563 views)
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no worries! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been reading it, on and off, since the mid-90s and enjoy it every time I pick it up :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 23, 6:54pm

Post #129 of 203 (7567 views)
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Ah, that bit about the Witch-King's ex-wife explains Gandalf's puzzling remark [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, that bit about the Witch-King's ex-wife explains Gandalf's puzzling remark:

"You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abbess prepared for you! Go back!"

(The lady must have taken up holy orders and then risen up the convent hierarchy, evidently. But ow she wants her due).

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 23, 7:02pm

Post #130 of 203 (7564 views)
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BTW - With 129 replies (when I post this)... [In reply to] Can't Post

With 129 replies (when I post this) this discussion is currently joint 23rd in the list of most-replied to posts on this version of the Reading Room forum.

And of course perhaps this won't be the end of the replies...

Nice to feel we still know how to have sustained fun.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 23, 7:10pm)


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 23, 8:35pm

Post #131 of 203 (7555 views)
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love that passage! [In reply to] Can't Post

The one you quoted from 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'. It's long been one of my (many) faves from The Silmarillion. It is a rare glimpse at what Sauron's dominion, unshackled from any restraints imposed by the Eldar or the Númenóreans, actually looked like. There was development, of a sorts, for those who would submit - a concept that goes as far back as the first draft of 'The Drowning of Anadûnê' and further elaborated by Tolkien in post-LotR writings. A couple of samples:


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... and his [Sauron's] rule was of benefit to all men in their needs of the body; for he made them rich, whoso would serve him. ['The Drowning of Anadûnê', HoMe IX]



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He [Sauron] had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the [economic] well-being of the other inhabitants of the Earth. [Letter 183]


The fascinating story of 'Tal-Elmar' (HoMe XII) provides another such glimpse of 'pax Sauronica'. This tale depicts life as arguably less developed and more brutal for the humans living under Sauron's rule, although agriculture is referred to. I'm flitting between a few different sources and periods, which is usually a risky business, but thematically, there's some consistency, I reckon.

Continuing my flittery, whilst observing the rules of boggling, there is a Númenórean analogue of sorts to Sauron's 'munificence': the earliest interactions between the Númenóreans and their distant proto-Edainic kin in Eriador. This is the era before the Númenóreans themselves become in turn an analogue of Sauron's tyrannical domination of the Men of Middle-earth. I'm thinking, in particular, of the following passage from 'Akallabêth':


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And the Dúnedain came at times to the shores of the Great Lands, and they took pity on the forsaken world of Middle-earth; and the lords of Númenor set foot again upon the western shores in the Dark Years of Men, and none yet dared to withstand them. For most of the Men of that age that sat under the Shadow were now grown weak and fearful. And coming among them the Númenóreans taught them many things. Corn and wine they brought, and they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life, such as it might be in the lands of swift death and little bliss.


The above is clearly not to be confused with Númenórean interaction with the peoples of Minhiriath and Enedwaith - the ancestors of the Gwathuirim / Dunlendings. These latter, although also distantly related to the Númenóreans, being an archaic branch of the people that became the Folk of Haleth, were forest-dwellers and remained so. Until the bitter end, when the Númenóreans, by their "ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests" effectively drained these lands of its people and resources. Instead, what's most likely being referred to in the above passage is Númenórean interaction with the population of Eriador north and east of the Baranduin / Brandywine River. One of Tolkien's philological essays, reproduced across Unfinished Tales ('Aldarion & Erendis') and HoMe XII ('Of Dwarves & Men'), writes of the very first such interaction, at the Tower Hills. These 'Men of Eriador' are described as:


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... in origin kin of the Folk of Bëor, though some were kin of the Folk of Hador. They dwelt about Lake Evendim, in the North Downs and the Weather Hills, and in the lands between as far as the Brandywine... ('Of Dwarves and Men')



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It appears that they were in origin Men of the same stock as the Peoples of Bëor and Hador who had not crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand during the First Age. (Note 3, 'Aldarion & Erendis')


These are the most likely candidates for who were the beneficiaries of early Númenórean patronage and largesse. Although no "towns and walls of stone" etc, as per Sauron's sponsorship, are mentioned, agriculture and some degree of settlement formation - "they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life" - is implied. What happened to this potential flourishing in the north of Eriador isn't directly covered off by Tolkien, although one of the accounts of the War of the Elves and Sauron, as reproduced in 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn', suggests an unhappy ending, when it notes that when Sauron:


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attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador [after his destruction of Eregion] .. he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves...


The timelines for the 'tutelage' provided by Sauron and the Númenóreans, respectively don't particularly match up but it was more the 'development' theme than chronological symmetry that caught my eye, inspired by reading your post.

And since I've mentioned the 'Of Dwarves & Men' essay, I'll finish this post by noting that another group of the Númenóreans' distant relatives, this time related to the Folk of Hador, was also benefiting from a few 'upgrades' elsewhere in Middle-earth, also in the Second Age. This was in Rhovanion, on account of trade and military cooperation between Durin's Folk and the Men of Rhovanion. Although, unlike in the cases of the Númenóreans and Sauron explored above, this interaction comes across as on a more even footing. Both parties benefited through exchanges that compensated for their respective weaknesses in terms of goods, technology and skills.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 23, 8:56pm

Post #132 of 203 (7540 views)
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So, it was not supposed to be Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

who fulfilled the "not by the hand of man shall he fall" prophecy? It boggles the mind!

Glorfindel knew the divorce had been rough...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 23, 10:01pm

Post #133 of 203 (7528 views)
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Gosh, now I'm imagining... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gosh, now I'm imagining a character rather like the one played by Carrie Fischer in The Blues Brothers.
She is called, perhaps, Dame Hildegard of Big Gun.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 23, 10:54pm

Post #134 of 203 (7523 views)
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Númenorean Politics [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thanks for the reply. Númenórean colonisation is something I defo find interesting. Some of your reply I still couldn't follow. Especially the characterisation of the Númenóreans leaving Sauron alone after the War of the Elves and Sauron, and prior to Ar-Pharazôn military humbling of Sauron. As recounted in the Akallabêth, Sauron is certainly at bay for many years after the devastating defeat he suffered at the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. However, "when the Úlairi arose [c. II.2251]... he [Sauron] began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." In that text and in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', there is also reference to Númenóreans continuing to aid Gil-galad in his struggle with Sauron.

I guess this material is what you were referring to when you spoke of "some skirmishes and minor clashes". I'd agree that they don't seem like the two huge set-piece wars that bookend Númenórean intervention in Middle-earth. They do sound a bit like centuries of hostilities though, where by choice or because they were under attack, the Númenóreans were hardly "leaving Sauron alone". And Sauron actually attacking the Númenóreans doesn't come across as Sauron trying to subtly influence them to leave him alone either!


It sounds like there were provocations that Númenor could have used to declare a full-scale war, but for some reason Númenor never declared a full-scale war against Sauron until Ar-Pharazôn.


In Reply To
Am also not convinced by this assertion:


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Consequently all their colonies would have to be built nearly from scratch and it would be a long time for these to grow into the sort of places where "great lords" would live.


You're relying on an assumption that a range of colonial settlements founded across different locations are all growing at a uniformly slow rate in order to explain the lack of three 'great lords', in order to prove that Ciryatan is the Witch-king.


The assertion that there were powerful Númenorean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material.

A slow rate of growth for the colonies is natural in a situation where there initially is no real population pressure in the homeland and going to an uncertain future in the colonies would in most cases be a big drop in the standard of living. When America was colonized, it wasn't only the island of Great Britain sending out the colonists. If it had been, the process of colonial development would have been much slower, and even more so if Great Britain didn't have the dense population it had in real life.

Vikings never managed to permanently colonize America because their population numbers simply weren't large enough and America was far away.


In Reply To
On this one:


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The psychological condition of the Númenoreans explains why the king's message would have been so widely popular. Sauron influencing the king through a Ring of Power explains why the king would be propagating the message in the first place. It would have been easy for the king to adhere to the traditions from sheer inertia (after all, those traditions put him at the top), but instead he chose to actively rebel and spread the rebellion.


As flagged elsewhere in the thread, Tolkien directly explains how the King's Men faction arose. At length, in a Melian Dialogue style format. And without reference or recourse to a Ring of Power. You mention psychological condition: the debate between the Messengers of Manwë and the Númenóreans is a genuinely interesting study of the psychology of the Númenóreans of that era. The king, and the Númenóreans by extension, are indeed at the top. But it's still not enough for them and therein is the seed of their fall. The King's Men are the first generation to stumble in this regard.

Thanks for the link to the article - genuinely fascinating stuff! My personal view is that the author mistakes Tolkien's general reference to 'hints' and 'allusions' in Letter 156 as a cypher for a treasure map leading to specific secrets, which the especially attentive (ie. the author) can uncover. And one such secret is that Ciryatan was the Witch-king. The author also makes a date discrepancy do a lot of heavy lifting in order to conclude that Ciryatan lived for 617 years. Letter 156 also happens to be another good source for Tolkien's conceptualisation of the Fall of the Númenóreans, without reference to any Rings of Power.


I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien.

The king being in possession of a Ring of Power and his mind influenced by Sauron in no way contradicts the people of Númenor being easily moved to anti-Valar sentiments because of various factors. The king didn't mind-control his entire people; he merely put to voice sentiments that some of the citizens had already been having in secret and many others would find easy to believe in, especially when the message was coming from a position of authority.

You may notice that when Sauron finally comes to Númenor, he influences Ar-Pharazôn in exactly the same direction as the old anti-Valar King's Men faction, only this time more extreme. In the intervening time the Overton Window in Númenor had moved a lot, allowing for more radical policies to become thinkable, and Sauron with his personal presence would be able to convince many important people that might be hesitant if it was only the king alone talking about attacking Valinor.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 24, 12:17am

Post #135 of 203 (7515 views)
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Witch-king prophecy was really "by the legal suit of a divorce lawyer shall he fall" [In reply to] Can't Post

but like most prophecies, things went a bit off the rails and needed to be re-interpreted.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 24, 1:32am

Post #136 of 203 (7510 views)
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three lords a leaping with three golden rings [In reply to] Can't Post


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The assertion that there were powerful Númenórean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material.


No such assertion made and no invention required! I posit merely that those that did exist are plausible candidates to have housed the three "great lords of Númenórean descent" that were suborned by Sauron. As quoted by yourself, the entry for c. II.1800 in the 'Tale of Years' refers to "dominions on the coast" as being established. Just because they're not named doesn't mean I've invented their existence. The feigned annalist has done the work for the reader.

The population pressure point is an interesting one and not something I've thought about very much. Many of the colonisation drivers appear to be psychological or about resources or political, eg. the Faithful emigrating to escape persecution. I'm familiar with the following passage ('Akallabêth'):


Quote
Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied.


This seems to me as more of a psychological driver for colonisation, where something has been denied (Paradise) and restless displacement activity ensues. I'm aware that Tolkien wrote that after the first millennium of the Second Age, the population of Númenor "greatly increased", rising from around two million to fifteen million by the time of the Akallabêth, and that Middle-earth was described as an "outlet" in this regard ('Of the Land and Beasts of Númenor', NoMe). The date range for this growth spurt is so vast (2,000+ years), that I would only be speculating on links between Númenórean demography and specific colonial ventures. At any rate, slightly less speculatively, the Númenóreans throwing themselves into displacement activity, wanting more 'stuff', and population growth of some description taking place need not be mutually exclusive drivers.

I've not consciously based any of my arguments around demographic change. My main point is that there is plenty of textual evidence that there were Númenóreans settling in Middle-earth in a suitable timeframe. Building on that, it's then what I reckon to be a relatively mild leap to the assessment that that's how we get to those three 'great lords' who go on to be snapped up by that nice Mr Sauron. I reckon we just have very different criteria in mind as to the circumstances within which a "great lord of Númenórean descent" might attach themselves to or indeed arise in a colonial context. For me, a colony doesn't have to reach Level 36 via 10,000 development points before its first great lord appears as a playable character. You also don't appear to attach any importance to the framing "of Númenórean descent", which strikes me as potentially relevant - although I admit I could be stretching things there. Anyway, I reckon something is possible and you seem to have arrived at that something being impossible. I embrace a 'Ringless' explanation for the tragedy that is the Akallabêth and you're interests appear to lie in an explanation I hadn't previously considered, have genuinely enjoyed reading and, ultimately, find a bit too extratextual and exotic for my personal taste. We therefore diverge, which is part of the Reading Room experience. In being prompted to think about the source material again, I've gone back to a few things I haven't read in a while, and I'm grateful for being reminded of how much I enjoy the textual evolution of the Akallabêth.

Speaking of methodology, I guess this bit may go to the heart of things:


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I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien.


With this kind of stuff, we're all trying a bit of secondary world historiography on for size, a bit of contextual draft sifting, and a bit of conjecture based on our understanding or previous study of primary world history. More or less. I'm not consciously seeking a hidden truth in all of this. And as an arguably pretty boring empiricist historian (purely amateur these days!), I tend to be pretty content with plausibility!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 24, 6:20pm

Post #137 of 203 (7383 views)
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I'm actually [In reply to] Can't Post

shocked (Shocked!) to find that (this much) discussion is going on in here!

Hmmm, Peter Lorre would have made a pretty convincing Gollum, I think . . .



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 6:21pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 24, 7:58pm

Post #138 of 203 (7356 views)
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What?! "Cassablanca has been quoted -- round up the usual suspects!" [In reply to] Can't Post

"Cassablanca has been quoted -- round up the usual suspects!"
So many quotable bits - it never Claude Rains, but it pours.
But agree about Peter Lorre.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 24, 9:22pm

Post #139 of 203 (7345 views)
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a slave dismayed [In reply to] Can't Post

The 'no will but his own' theme is outlined in the LotR chapter you quoted from previously, 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol', in the context of the growth in power of both the Witch-king and Frodo. As Frodo is observing, in dread, the Witch-king and his host issue forth form Minas Morgul, the Witch-king "halted suddenly" and there was "a pause, a dead silence", followed by:


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Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley.


Frodo's personal struggle with the One Ring ensues but as he earns his fighting draw, a victory in the circumstances, the Witch-king breaks his own vigil and proceeds:


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Maybe the elven-hoods deifed his unseen eyes, and the mind of his small enemy, being strengthened, had turned aside his thought. But he was in haste. Already the hour had struck, and at his great Master's bidding he must march with war into the West.


Now we have Red Bookery going on, as ever, so ostensibly this is a hobbit with a quill telling us what he thought was going on in the Witch-king's head. However, the theme is the same as Tolkien outlines your quote from 'The Hunt for the Ring': the Witch-king, even when he seems to know something is amiss on his front step (the cheek of these hobbits!), he feels compelled to move on. Would it have killed him to search Imlad Morgul, based on his hunch? He had tens of thousands of soldiers at his disposal right there with him. Well, maybe it wouldn't exactly have killed him to tarry but I'm sure Sauron could have inflicted unpleasantness! At any rate, he must away because that is what he has been commanded to do.*

While the pages of the 'The Hunt for the Ring' are open on my desk, there's another snippet in there that reinforces, yet again, the total subjugation of the Witch-king and the rest of the Nine to the master of the One Ring - at least as Saruman understands it. In his desperate converse with the Witch-king who has turned up at the Gate of Isengard to collect in information that Sauron had demanded, Saruman says this:


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'I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord.'


There's also some interesting nuance hadn't occurred to me before re-reading 'The Hunt for the Ring'. Not enough to change my mind that the wills of the Nine were enslaved to that of Sauron, as master of the One Ring. That is well-established in the text. It's related to yet another use of the word 'dismay' in association with a reaction on the part of the Witch-king - as picked up elsewhere in thread. Here, it's in this context:


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When they [the Nazgûl] came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.


The Nine were already carrying out the express instructions of Sauron at this point and have already been described in this vignette as having "no will but his [Sauron's] own. Yet Sauron still feels the need to issue threats. I don't read into this that Sauron mistrusted his chief servants (they were effectively extensions of his own will after all) but it seems he was still not above offering 'incentives' for due compliance. The Witch-king hurrying off to war, despite his apparent sensing of a threat outside Minas Morgul comes back to mind.


* Re-reading these three of paragraphs in 'Stairs of Cirith Ungol', I can't help but notice that the Witch-king is called everything but the Witch-king! We have 'the Rider', 'the Lord of the Nine Riders', 'the haggard king', 'the Wraith-lord', 'the Morgul-king', and 'the Wraith-king'.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 24, 9:31pm

Post #140 of 203 (7336 views)
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best interim post ever :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 24, 10:31pm

Post #141 of 203 (7327 views)
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Peoples of Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The fascinating story of 'Tal-Elmar' (HoMe XII) provides another such glimpse of 'pax Sauronica'. This tale depicts life as arguably less developed and more brutal for the humans living under Sauron's rule, although agriculture is referred to. I'm flitting between a few different sources and periods, which is usually a risky business, but thematically, there's some consistency, I reckon.


The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization. You may notice that there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him. They also would not have been in a position to get the benefits of Sauron's rule.

(There are also issues with the overall level of reliability, given the status of Tal-Elmar as a combination of two unfinished sections with significant but not wholly clear story changes between the sections.)


In Reply To

These are the most likely candidates for who were the beneficiaries of early Númenórean patronage and largesse. Although no "towns and walls of stone" etc, as per Sauron's sponsorship, are mentioned, agriculture and some degree of settlement formation - "they instructed Men in the sowing of seed and the grinding of grain, in the hewing of wood and the shaping of stone, and in the ordering of their life" - is implied.


So basically the Númenoreans made friends with paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherers in real life have very small populations, limited by what their land can sustain, and also lack infrastructure. This is not the recipe for instant colonies, just add water.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Feb 24, 11:06pm

Post #142 of 203 (7315 views)
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Colony Sizes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
The assertion that there were powerful Númenórean colonies very early in the timeline requires inventing a new location that isn't Umbar or Pelargir or Vinyalondë and imagining that it somehow got really powerful and important really fast without a mention of its importance anywhere in the source material.


No such assertion made and no invention required! I posit merely that those that did exist are plausible candidates to have housed the three "great lords of Númenórean descent" that were suborned by Sauron. As quoted by yourself, the entry for c. II.1800 in the 'Tale of Years' refers to "dominions on the coast" as being established. Just because they're not named doesn't mean I've invented their existence. The feigned annalist has done the work for the reader.


1800 is only when the colonization efforts really started going. The colonies wouldn't have become large or developed right away, especially with the circumstances in Númenor less favorable of rapid colonization than was the case with America. I think having an unnamed colony or colonies important enough to have genuine "great lords" as permanent residents at a very early point in the timeline is a much bigger stretch than thinking that a king of Númenor could have been influenced by Sauron through a Ring of Power.


In Reply To
The population pressure point is an interesting one and not something I've thought about very much. Many of the colonisation drivers appear to be psychological or about resources or political, eg. the Faithful emigrating to escape persecution. I'm familiar with the following passage ('Akallabêth'):


Quote
Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied.


This seems to me as more of a psychological driver for colonisation, where something has been denied (Paradise) and restless displacement activity ensues. I'm aware that Tolkien wrote that after the first millennium of the Second Age, the population of Númenor "greatly increased", rising from around two million to fifteen million by the time of the Akallabêth, and that Middle-earth was described as an "outlet" in this regard ('Of the Land and Beasts of Númenor', NoMe). The date range for this growth spurt is so vast (2,000+ years), that I would only be speculating on links between Númenórean demography and specific colonial ventures. At any rate, slightly less speculatively, the Númenóreans throwing themselves into displacement activity, wanting more 'stuff', and population growth of some description taking place need not be mutually exclusive drivers.



Rising from 2 to 15 million is only three doublings. That's really very slow in real world terms, but small family sizes and late ages of marriage would have had lot to do with this. This slow growth would have been a significant limiting factor on the colonization. Colonists are born to parents too.

For all its fame as a colonial power, Númenor's marriage customs hindered its colonization efforts a lot.


In Reply To
I've not consciously based any of my arguments around demographic change. My main point is that there is plenty of textual evidence that there were Númenóreans settling in Middle-earth in a suitable timeframe. Building on that, it's then what I reckon to be a relatively mild leap to the assessment that that's how we get to those three 'great lords' who go on to be snapped up by that nice Mr Sauron. I reckon we just have very different criteria in mind as to the circumstances within which a "great lord of Númenórean descent" might attach themselves to or indeed arise in a colonial context. For me, a colony doesn't have to reach Level 36 via 10,000 development points before its first great lord appears as a playable character. You also don't appear to attach any importance to the framing "of Númenórean descent", which strikes me as potentially relevant - although I admit I could be stretching things there. Anyway, I reckon something is possible and you seem to have arrived at that something being impossible. I embrace a 'Ringless' explanation for the tragedy that is the Akallabêth and you're interests appear to lie in an explanation I hadn't previously considered, have genuinely enjoyed reading and, ultimately, find a bit too extratextual and exotic for my personal taste. We therefore diverge, which is part of the Reading Room experience. In being prompted to think about the source material again, I've gone back to a few things I haven't read in a while, and I'm grateful for being reminded of how much I enjoy the textual evolution of the Akallabêth.


A village chief of an isolated village is a very important person as far as the villagers are concerned, but I rather think Sauron targeted individuals that he himself considered sufficiently great lords. He would have pursued individuals with geopolitical significance.


In Reply To
Speaking of methodology, I guess this bit may go to the heart of things:


Quote
I think it pays to not stop at the first plausible explanation. That first plausible explanation may not be the whole truth, end of story, especially when the story was still in the process of being developed by Tolkien.


With this kind of stuff, we're all trying a bit of secondary world historiography on for size, a bit of contextual draft sifting, and a bit of conjecture based on our understanding or previous study of primary world history. More or less. I'm not consciously seeking a hidden truth in all of this. And as an arguably pretty boring empiricist historian (purely amateur these days!), I tend to be pretty content with plausibility!


History is made of chains of cause and effect, and those form a complicated weave. It is inaccurate to say that, say, the French Revolution was caused by this one thing, end of story, no more needs to be said, when there would have been multiple contributing factors and also that "one thing" would have followed from various other causes. I think Tolkien was trying to imitate this phenomenon with his fake history even though obviously he couldn't reach the complexity of real history.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 24, 11:28pm

Post #143 of 203 (7314 views)
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Oh my goodness! [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush

I bet NEB could find many more. Smile

But thanks!



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:28pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 24, 11:38pm

Post #144 of 203 (7310 views)
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Claude without Rains [In reply to] Can't Post

would be pretty dismal.

I wish we could see Peter in that role. I suppose AI could sort of do it, but only Lorre can really be Lorre.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:38pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 24, 11:48pm

Post #145 of 203 (7308 views)
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"We have 'the Rider', 'the Lord of the Nine Riders', 'the haggard king', 'the Wraith-lord', 'the Morgul-king', and 'the Wraith-king'. " [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting!

Like one of the great composers, who can change moods 4 times in 3 lines of music and make it feel perfectly natural.

I never noticed that naming-variation as such, before; and it seems to me it could come across almost as labored, or too deliberately contrived, but instead it seems perfectly natural to the point where it didn't really catch my attention--and I must have read the books close to 30 or 40 times since my first encounter.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 24, 11:48pm)


Felagund
Nargothrond


Feb 25, 3:11am

Post #146 of 203 (7284 views)
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Tal-Elmar [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization. You may notice that there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him. They also would not have been in a position to get the benefits of Sauron's rule.


I've always taken the Folk of Agar and indeed the neighbouring Folk of Udul to be people under the rule of Sauron. I'm questioning that view now and am very much appreciative of your steer! Taking a look at the two texts that CJRT had to work with, we have the following:


Quote
He [Tal-Elmar] had seen the sun sink into the sea before, yet never before had he seen it so. He knew in a flash (as if it came from that fire itself) that he had seen it so [? he was called,] that it meant something more than the approach of the 'King's time', the dark.


This suggests that the people of Agar were at least aware of the 'King of the dark', which is not automatically the same thing as allegiance or worship - very much to your point and more on that anon. The prime candidate is Sauron and this relationship is picked out by CJRT in note 14 to this tale, cross-refencing a direct mention of Sauron later in the text.

What might the interactions of the peoples mentioned in the tale itself tell us then? Past wars and foreshadowed ones indicate that the people of Agar have fought against a people who are described as "fair, tall" with "white skins and bright eyes" - the 'Fell Folk', who appear to be the same as, or related to, the 'Cruels' of the North, an enemy group and future threat named later in the story. This is in contrast to the Folk of Agar, who are described as "broad, swarthy, short" and "swart sturdy folk". The Númenóreans who appear towards the end of the story are said to be in alliance with the 'Cruels' in an effort to "drive out the Dark People and make a settlement to threaten the King [Sauron]." The Númenóreans that Tal-Elmar meets consistently characterise the Agar and peoples like them as 'Men of the Dark', 'Dark People', 'people of the Dark' "who are our enemies, being servants of the Enemy." Even so, Tal-Elmar insists on making a distinction of sorts:


Quote
We fear the Dark, but we do not love it or serve it. At least so do some of us.


So, what is going on here? This looks like a classic bit of Númenórean ethnography, with all its limitations, as set out in the 'Of Dwarves & Men' essay (also in HoMe XII) and articulated by Faramir in his Númenórean history lecture at Henneth Annûn ('The Window on the West', LotR). In this schema, humankind was duly divided up into 'High Men' (ie. themselves), Middle Men and the Men of Darkness. In the context of 'Tal-Elmar', I don't reckon it's too much of a leap to understand the 'Cruels' as Middle Men and the folk of Agar and Udul etc as Men of Darkness. And the 'Cruels' very much come across as proto-Edainic peoples who the Númenóreans could choose to identify as distant kin - descendants of those related to the Folk of Hador, for example. The people of Agar similarly are described in ways that recall the Easterlings of the First Age ("short and broad... their skins were swart or sallow" - 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand', The Sil).

Does this mean that the peoples of Agar and Udul were part of Sauron's empire? The Númenóreans in this story seem to think so. But then again, they had got it very wrong with the peoples of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, treating them as foes when in fact they were related to the Folk of Haleth and therefore were distant relatives of the Númenóreans themselves. And Tal-Elmar is defensive on this characterisation, asserting that not all of his people served or loved the Dark.

And what of the wars that are mentioned? Anything further to be gleaned there? The Fell Folk have been pressing on the "east-marches" of the "ancient dwellers in the lands" - of which the Hills of Agar are a far western portion. Possibly around the mouths of the Anduin, the Morthond or the Isen; or perhaps the Langstrand, as Tolkien mused. I could even speculate that his reference to the "green hills of Agar" may be a deliberate or unintended reference to what became Pinnath Gelin (lit. 'Green Hills' in Sindarin), above the Langstrand. Some of the Folk of Agar have, in the past, enlisted in armies led by the 'North King', who fought the aforementioned Fell Folk (Tal-Elmar's ancestors). This North King may or may not be connected to the 'Dark Kings', whose reigns are used to date the story itself, from the perspective of the 'Wild Men' - who are synonymous with the Men of Darkness in Númenórean reckoning. Perhaps Tolkien is drawing on his Akallabêth narrative here, wherein can be found:


Quote
And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of the evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth. And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings.


These 'evil Men' appear to have been the remnant of the Easterlings who served Morgoth in his Wars of Beleriand, and 'Dark Kings' seems like a pretty good term for them. Moreover, as stated above, there appear to have been some similarities in the descriptors used by Tolkien to describe the Easterlings and the people of Agar. But before I get speculatively too carried away, it's worth reminding myself that a similar descriptor was used for other people living not so far from most of the candidate-locations for Agar, albeit millennia later, specifically the Men of Lossarnach ("shorter and somewhat swarthier" than other Gondorians: 'Minas Tirith', LotR). With so little to go on, these Dark Kings may or may not have been rulers who the people of Agar had to accommodate or chose to serve in their armies, and they may or may not have been linked, in Tolkien's mind, to his conceptualisation of Easterling kingships amongst the post-Beleriand ruins and wilds. Fun speculation but I haven't moved things on very much!

As to whether I agree with you on "there is no indication that the people of Agar actually worshiped Sauron or took orders from him", I've defo moved closer to your conclusion, even if I'm not quite as unequivocal as you. On reflection, I now appreciate that Agar cannot, as I previously thought, be simply described as part of Sauron's empire. Tal-Elmar's concept of the world around him is that Sauron 'rules' the dark ("the King's time") but the people of Agar do not uniformly "love it [the Dark] or serve it". Similarly, that some of the Agar folk had fought in wars against proto-Edainic peoples did not automatically make them servants or worshippers of Sauron. From the point of view of Agar and whoever the North King was, the Fell Folk were encroaching on their lands. And worse was to come, via an alliance of conquest and colonisation between the Númenóreans and the Cruels. To return to the 'Akallabêth', as constructed for The Silmarillion, we know that Sauron once ruled over some of the coastlands of Middle-earth and only "withdrew from the coasts" once the Númenóreans turned their own hand to establishing "Great harbours and strong towers" beyond their homeland. Perhaps the likes of Agar and Udul were once within Sauron's direct orbit but he was, by the time of Tal-Elmar, a relatively distant prospect - even if his 'kingship' of the dark was something that Tal-Elmar and his kin felt they had to take into account, cosmologically.

Sadly, for a story that was designed to see "the Númenóreans from the point of view of the Wild Men", it's the point of view of the Númenóreans that dominates in the short amount of text that we have. Whatever the precise nature of the relationship between the people of Agar and Sauron's dominion, the Númenóreans in this story are in the early stages of plans to expel or kill them because they see them generically as servants of Sauron, the Enemy. The Númenóreans who interrogate Tal-Elmar are interested in whether the Agar folk might be friendly but still see them through the lens of 'Men of Darkness'. To return to the tragedy of the Númenórean interaction with the forest-dwellers of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, perhaps, like these people, the Agar folk would end up fighting for Sauron, even if that wasn't their default setting at this time. Númenórean colonisation, at least in the tale of 'Tal-Elmar', did not bode well for the locals and in them, Sauron might cynically recruit useful canon fodder, just as he did in Minhiriath, on account of Númenórean abuses.

A final reflection that I don't think has much bearing on the overall picture but it was something that occurred to me en route. The first bit of your conclusion:


Quote
The people of Agar would have been those who "took refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain", rejecting Sauron's civilization


Agar is described as "a fenced town... in the green hills", with crops in the surrounding countryside. The Agar folk feel a bit more domesticated than a people taking "refuge in the fastnesses of wood and mountain" ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'). Perhaps closer to the mark is when Tal-Elmar's father, Hazad defines Agar as distinct, and superior to, a group of enemies who he describes as:


Quote
The wild men of the mountains and the woods, but these only those who stray alone need fear.


Suffice to say, I think this distinction would have been lost on the Númenóreans of that era, who likely would have lumped these 'wild men' in with the Agar folk as 'Men of Darkness'!

And many thanks again for prompting me to look at Agar in a different light :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


CuriousG
Gondolin


Feb 25, 3:32am

Post #147 of 203 (7277 views)
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I've wondered about the title changes too, but [In reply to] Can't Post

they seem organically related, and like you, I only noticed the differences after many reads when someone pointed them out. It might be Tolkien's memory taking a stab at something he half-remembers (been there, done that). "Those short people...the halflings..the wabbits...no, what were they? habits?...harfoots?...no, hobbits!" OK, we might struggle with "wabbits," and possibly "those furry-footed overgrown rodent people," but the other variations are close enough that we don't blink, similar to the King-Witch-rider's varying appellations.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Feb 25, 3:45pm

Post #148 of 203 (7171 views)
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Priceless. If I had to say it, I would [In reply to] Can't Post

venture to wager that they sat down at your table at a wayside pub and vented the whole thing to you in frustration, in between hissing for pints.



noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 25, 6:25pm

Post #149 of 203 (7152 views)
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Lorre of the Rings... ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Feb 25, 6:35pm

Post #150 of 203 (7154 views)
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The Ungreatful Undead [In reply to] Can't Post

So I think we're left with the Nazgul being 'slaves to Sauron's will' (essential as they are the only servants who could be trusted to hand over the Ring if they got it). And yet they have some autonomy (essential if they are to operate independently in the field, rather than being remote control drones of Sauron's mind).

That remaining autonomy brings with it some culpability, and some need for Sauron to issue threats (aside, perhaps from just enjoying doing so).

That all seems just about to hang together. And anyway, there is always boggling.

You reminded me of an excellent analysis (though with one bit I don't uuderstand or don't agree with if I have understood it) From Paul H Kocher:

Quote
...But, like Marlowe's Hell, Mordor has no geographical limits and is wherever its victims are.

These victims not only are morally debased and physically dematerialized but also drag out their days in torment. A mortal who keeps one of the rings of power lives longer, Gandalf tells Frodo at the start, "but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness." One of the most dreadful, most pitiable things about the Nazgûl is their cry of lament: "A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature." The despair in it is a weapon that Sauron uses to spread hopelessness among the people of Minas Tirith. Angmar especially, the leader of the Nine, is known as the Captain of Despair, who drives even his own troops mad with terror during the siege. He cannot induce it in others unless he first feels it in himself, and in the last analysis it may even come fromsome corner of Sauron's own withered conscience. When Angmar threatens Eowyn on the battlefield it is not with death: Sauron "will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind left naked to the Lidless Eye." The Nazgûl chief is no stranger to these places of physical and spiritual torture, nor to Sauron's delight in them, somewhere at the heart of the darkness which cloaks him.

Master of Middle-Earth by Paul H Kocher, Del Ray 1972

The bit I'm not sure about is "He cannot induce it [despair and/or possibly terror] in others unless he first feels it in himself, and in the last analysis it may even come fromsome corner of Sauron's own withered conscience." I can in fact imagine someoen inducing despair and or terror in me just by being extremely frightening or seemingly unopposable. I don't see why they would necessarily be despairing or terrified themselves.
But a lovely passage about the wretched existence of the Nazgul

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

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