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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 2, 1:49pm
Post #26 of 39
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About Dragon ecology, I think the indications are that they are animated machines/magic items and don't need to eat organic food, though they do need to be refueled on occasion. This need for refueling would be why Dragons spend most of their time "asleep" in power-saving mode. Smaug couldn't refuel himself, and every moment of rampage brought closer the time he would finally shut down for lack of energy.
So I think Tolkien never fully abandoned his early Fall of Gondolin conceptions of mechanical dragons, but made the machines be possessed and operated by evil spirits with supernatural powers.
(Farmer Giles of Ham is a different and unrelated continuity, so you can't assume the world-building mechanics are compatible.)
(I'd been thinking about making a proper topic post about this subject, but hadn't even started with the writing.)
I'm not sure how far you are taking this concept. Dragons do seem to be living beasts, whatever their magical nature. Morgoth bred them, he didn't construct them. Smaug could hardly have been a "young" dragon when he came to Erebor if he had been an automaton "built" in the First Age.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 2, 3:00pm
Post #27 of 39
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While you are correct that numbers are on Saurons side, attacking fortifications and better quality troops (don't forget ents, eagles etc) and generals such as Aragorn and Gandalf, makes it more difficult.
To recap, I do realise that the nature of this 'What If?' is to turn Tolkien's fairy tale into a wargame-as-thought-experiment. Within those premises, then I suppose it is natural to imagine any people or forces that have come into the story as now available to the armchair general - the fun of these things is presumably to imagine the biggest and bestest battles.
But I'm once again struck by how Not Like That Tolkien's story is.
Gandalf's speech to The Last Debate points out how narrowly our lot have survived the defence of two of their best fortifications (Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith). He could go further and point out that those defences only survived at all due to a whole lot of unexpected goings on of an eucatastrophic nature which were not in any way part of the plan or calculations of the defending generals.
Maybe everyone knows the book well enough to realise what I mean, but just in case:
Helm's Deep is relieved not only by the scattered Rohirrim forces Gandalf has rallied overnight but (crucially) any retreat is cut off by the terrifyng Huorns who 'disappear' all the orcs. It's that which turns a relief-of-seige battle into a rout and immediate victory. Those Huorns have not turned up because Theoden or Gandalf have entered into an alliance with General Treebeard - and nor have the Ents joined in because Elrond or Galadriel have pleaded with them. A much longer and stranger chain of events explains their coming as a total surprise to everyone at Helm's Deep. IT's Saruman's own plan blowing up in his face by inadvertently causing Treebeard to meet a couple of hobbits (as Gandalf specifically points out).
Similarly, one of the things that makes Tolkien's account of the defence of Minas Tirith exciting is the see-saw between imminent victory and defeat. Tolkien's Battle of the Five Armies does this too, but on teh Pellenor, it's the repeated entrance of the unexpected:
The defence is crumbling when Rohan turns up in the nick of time and under sunrise brought to you by a backing wind. Rohan has been brought to you by the unexpected intervention of Ghan-buri-ghan, allowing them to bypass Sauron's forces sent to guard against any re-inforcements.
Just as that advantage is being reversed by the arrival of endless further troops of Sauron, we have a second set of odd occurences, involving a Shieldmaiden and a hobbit who has accidentely* brought the perfect anti-Nazgul weapon from the North.
That advantage is being reversed yet again (still more endless troops) when along come the sails of the Corsair fleet - but of course it's really Aragprn, and a force of Men who weren't originally going to be available, because they had to defend against the Corsairs. They have been brought to you courtesy of Isildur and an oath some folks unwisely swore to him and broke, thus enabling Aragorn to become the Temporary Necromancer. Aragorn has additionally needed to have braved teh Paths of teh Dead, whic hhe knew to do because he obtained a palantir to see the danger the Corsairs posed, which he got because Wormtongue accidentely* threw it out of....which happend because Saruman miscalculated how much he could annoy the Ents... who might have remained patient for too long iof it weren't for Saruman's own backfiring kidnap-the-hobbits and get the Ring plan.
...you get the picture.
The Eagles are not coming. The Eagles are one of those things that Tolkien keeps on getting irritated about in Letters: in his mind they can't be used as general troop transports, attack helicopters, air superiority forces or for any other predictable thing. Eventually they become a sort of indication of divine grace, I think; turning up only when the hero has done all that can be expected. ( I do think Tolkien brought these 'why can't the eagles' queries on himself - it does look like he can call up an Eagle whenever he fancies, and while they end up as visible agents of divine grace they did start out in The Hobbit as something simpler.)
As to the unexpected forces that have turned up in the story already by the time of the Last Debate, the Dead have been released, the Ents haven't come to relieve Minas Tirith, and nor have Ghan-buri-ghan. They seem to be one-shot plot items It's a significant further 'What If?' to make them available for any kind of Post-Last Alliance Alliance.
I suppose that one other way of continuing the War of the Ring for your additional enjoyment, whilst carrying on Tolkien's pattern would be to have new surprise forces turn up each time our hereoes are yet again about to be overwhelmed. But there would be a danger of it getting cheesy pretty soon. That's one reason that writing books is hard, I expect. Or hard unless you pay someone else to do it for you like, say, Brittney Spears, Prince Harry, Michelle Obama or Donald Trump**.
--
*If there are such things as accidents in these matters - I expect we're not intended to see it as mere chance
--
** And I'm not sure how good an idea that is anyway -- asking Brittney Spears, Prince Harry, Michelle Obama or Donald Trump to write your fan fiction for you, I mean. Probably the only worse idea would be to get them to do it together in committee.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 2, 3:05pm)
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Tolkien R.J.J
Rivendell
Oct 2, 3:37pm
Post #28 of 39
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And of course you are aware. But you do not seem able to slip out of the creators story and into a hypothetical "what if" scenario.
Also you must realize that while Helms Deep was barley saved, Rohan is now free of that threat, Eomer king and able, and they are ready for war. The ents are pissed, twice engaging orcs (after Lorein and Helms deep) outside of Isengard and Gandalf can call upon the eagles as can Galadriel.
The various fortunate events that have generally been in the favor of the west "buy some time" for them before they would be conquered. That is my opinion. How unlike the story would become to Tolkien's intentions, or how it came to this situation are irreverent to me.
Purley hypothetical, and unlike Tolkien!
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Oct 2, 6:28pm
Post #29 of 39
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I'm not sure how far you are taking this concept. Dragons do seem to be living beasts, whatever their magical nature. Morgoth bred them, he didn't construct them. Smaug could hardly have been a "young" dragon when he came to Erebor if he had been an automaton "built" in the First Age.
Smaug supposedly would have become a smoking rock in a thousand years even if he hadn't been killed. Gandalf also implies that the "old fire" in all the surviving Dragons has been weakening (burning low?), with Smaug having had the hottest fire before he died.
There naturally are issues with Smaug claiming to have gotten stronger with age, but I think he's really not the type to admit to having grown weaker and less fiery, even if that was actually the case and he knew it.
My theory is that "young" in Dragons is not about chronological age as much as the state of being properly fueled and operating at full efficiency. Perhaps someone found a shrink-wrapped Dragon or perhaps Smaug managed to get himself fueled somehow one last time. It is also possible that Dragons have a significant biological component to them, but this would make the issue of their biology very thorny indeed if able to breed true, especially with Smaug's iron scales if you think them literal and not metaphorical.
Glaurung is outright stated to have an evil spirit inside. The presence of the evil spirit explains how Glaurung can think independently, talk, and use psychic powers against people. The Silent Watchers of Mordor probably have implanted spirits too but lack all the fancy craftsmanship and mobility and special features that Dragons have.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 3, 7:32am
Post #31 of 39
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What?! It ate Don McLean as well?
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That naughty balrog!
Sad thing about the McCartneys and their folk. Seems a Band On The Run couldn't run fast enough.But then, I think nothing is ever truly gone for good. And I heard that in a later age, a young Dwarf inventor had a brilliant idea on the exact spot where the band met the untimely (though some critics would say 'overdue') end of their floreat.
Yes, it was in that very place that the young inventor conceived the idea of producing flexible rubber wheel-rim covers for the mine carts, and after deep thought realised that this could be a great boon to her whole tribe.
And I like to think that there was no other place in Middle-earth where somone could successfully mull a kin tyre.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 3, 7:43am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 3, 7:45am
Post #32 of 39
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The usual diet of balrogs is cockney costermongers. Much as dragons seem to prefer princesses, balrogs prey for preference on the cockney Costermonarchs of the cockney costermongers. Possibly it is only pearly kings and queens becoming endangered due to overpredation that caused our paricular balrog to start eating pop musicians such as the members of Wings? Or perhaps it was a result of the the costerliving crisis?
Anyway, the balrog's unique digestive processes are what turned all those mother-of-pearl buttons into the prized substance later known as 'mithril'.
Now of course this is Pearley hypothetical, and unlike Tolkien (as recently requested).
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 3, 8:41am
Post #33 of 39
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Hey, I'd just relax and enjoy the fanarchy if I were you
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Hey, I'd just relax and enjoy the fanarchy if I were you. It's a fact of life that replies in the Reading Room (if you get some) may not be exactly what you hoped for, expected, think you deserve, or whatever.
Looking back on my responses to you, you can see that I've set out clearly why I prefer not 'to slip out of the creator's story', and how I am hoping to contribute instead. You've read that or not, and understood it or not, or respect it or not: I don't know and in a very Tolkienian fashion 'I don't care'. Certainly there is no point in me repeating myself.
But (and crucially) my responses have not stopped several people engaging with your idea on the terms that you had set out. That was not my intention and also I am glad I did not have a disruptive effect. However, since your responses to those folks have been polite variants on 'thank you, but I prefer my own ideas' then I'm not sure what else you want along those lines, or could possibly get here? Or indeed how you think it will be satisfying to anyone else to engage further with your notion, if you mean just to bat away any critique or alternative ideas?
(Thank you for remaining polite while doing so BTW, because from long experience not everyone with a Purley hypothetical, and unlike Tolkien! idea does. )
And of course - and typical Reading Room - people are enjoying a chance to propose some comical Purley hypothetical, and unlike Tolkien! notions, or their own "Purley hypothetical, and unlike Tolkien!" notions held with complete sincerity. Or generally to have fun at the event you've created. Please note that this is different to us having fun at your expense.
Anyway - time for us to discuss something else, I think.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 4, 7:43pm
Post #35 of 39
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And a groan was heard unto the uttermost west...
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 12, 1:03pm
Post #36 of 39
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What? Did no one else get that "mull a kin tyre"? 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Meneldor
Valinor
Oct 12, 5:11pm
Post #37 of 39
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And I will not forget. 
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Oct 24, 11:41pm
Post #38 of 39
(632 views)
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of Doug?
I had no idea that Balrogs were a type of rabbit. Though I have heard tales of a fearsome rabbit in Caerbannog.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Oh, I got it all right.
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