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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 9, 6:34am
Post #51 of 65
(982 views)
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regarding the storyline of Gandalf.
They will make a story with Gandalf failing in Secong Age against the Blue Wizards (will we have any similar casting in season 3?), Khamul and Sauron,and taking responsibility for the loss of the East, he returns to Valinor, not wanting to return to Middle-earth again, let alone the East. After Isildur's death, since he is shown in the last episode of the series, we see him on a ship arriving at the Grey Havens with Saruman and Radagast.
I wish they have such a turn in mind. The Dark Wizard told Gandalf that 'you convinced me to come to Middle-earth to face Sauron' while as I recall Gandalf was the most hesitant of all. Showing in the series that he had eaten his face off against Sauron and the Blues in the East, which is why he was reluctant to come back, would have been perfect.
How does that sound?
Let's look at what we know
Annatar has ambitions in Rhun. Tom has told Gandalf that the dark wizard and Sauron are his enemies.
Sauron will end up with nine ring bearers (some from the East) and in Numenor; Gandalf will fail in the East. There can only be two ways of handling this:-
1) He protects the halflings who will ultimately lead to Sauron's final expulsion and keeps meddling at a distance (some dialogue from the LOTR novels) and survives to the third age as the strange old eccentric.
2) He is lost to Middle Earth in the second age and for an ROP audience that raises the stakes.
The key is that Sauron succeeds in the East; it's part of the story, and it echoes the Blues.
Finally, did you notice the Dark Wizard's last action was to look up at the star formation where two strands meet one? As if speculating that the earthbound formation is not complete.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 9, 6:36am)
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NecromancerRising
Grey Havens
Oct 9, 6:56am
Post #52 of 65
(976 views)
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Finally, did you notice the Dark Wizard's last action was to look up at the star formation where two strands meet one? As if speculating that the earthbound formation is not complete.
Until today, i interpreted that last scene as The Dark Wizard officially knows that his opponent Istari has found its staff and name, for the reason that he did exactly the same in the past in Tom's house.Ι never thought about the star formation and now makes sense. We will definitely see another Istar.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Oct 9, 11:10am
Post #53 of 65
(946 views)
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There have been hints at #2 from the showrunners
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I recall an interview where they plan to elaborate on why the Istari are so subtle with their magic in the Third Age, hinting that they won’t be so subtle in their fight against Sauron in the Second, but learn from their mistakes.
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 11, 6:58pm
Post #54 of 65
(889 views)
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Interview with Payne and McKay
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Did anyone watch the Nerdist’s mildly interesting interview with Payne and McKay? For what it’s worth, here is what I remember about it:
These two guys are Tolkien geeks. One saw the Hobbit cartoon as a child, read the book and was hooked on Tolkien. The other was a bit older – maybe saw the Jackson films first? – but gets brownie points for learning Elvish, if you’re into that sort of thing.
They chose the Second Age story because it’s a tragedy, a different journey than LotR. The first five minutes of Fellowship got them interested in the Rings and their bearers. I wonder if they would have liked to adapt equally tragic The Silmarillion, but that of course is unavailable.
Their answer about the identity of the Stranger was a bit murky to me. They said they didn’t make the decision until after Season 1. They liked the idea of a wizard who didn’t know who he was, and wanted him to interact with Hobbits. There were only a few possibilities as to his identity. They took inspiration from some “deep cuts” into Tolkien lore about Gandalf’s possible early activities.
They wanted Celebrimbor, in their opinion arguably the main protagonist of this season, to go out as a hero. By the end, his mind is no longer befuddled and he sees clearly. He offers a fresh angle to Sauron - that he's a prisoner of the Rings, just as tyrants are prisoners of their own power.
It never occurred to them that the kiss would be controversial and they didn’t intend it to be provocative. It was meant to be platonic, between dear friends. Elrond saying “Forgive me” means forgive him for the kiss and for the previous conflict between them.
They loved Adar and will miss him. Their inspiration for the character came from the idea that Orcs were derived from Elves. Who were those Elves and did they remain immortal and so still be around? Adar and Galadriel’s story is that they are enemies with a common goal.
The interviewer asked about criticism, how they separate trolls and fans. They replied that they can tell the difference. They claimed they want good faith criticism and that they know some things could have been done better, that they didn’t work out as they intended.
Off topic: While in a waiting room the other day, I happened to skim an article about popular baby names, because there is a new member of my extended family and I wanted to see if her name was on the list. It wasn’t. But one name did stand out to me: Nori.
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Junesong
Rohan
Oct 11, 7:01pm
Post #55 of 65
(885 views)
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Everything I hear about these guys makes me more optimistic
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 11, 7:25pm
Post #56 of 65
(883 views)
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Correction: the interview was by Nerd of the Rings
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Everything I hear about these guys makes me more optimistic
I agree. Even if the viewers don't agree with every choice they make, at least these guys seem to be making these choices for specific reasons relating to the story they want to tell.
LOL: they exemplify two of the main ways it seems to me that people become Tolkien fans: seeing/reading The Hobbit as children or seeing Jackson's movies at a still impressionable age.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 13, 6:02am
Post #57 of 65
(840 views)
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Everything I hear about these guys makes me more optimistic I agree. Even if the viewers don't agree with every choice they make, at least these guys seem to be making these choices for specific reasons relating to the story they want to tell. LOL: they exemplify two of the main ways it seems to me that people become Tolkien fans: seeing/reading The Hobbit as children or seeing Jackson's movies at a still impressionable age.
That last point you made was important to me. My introduction to Tolkien was neither the Hobbit or the LOTR films it was the LOTR books.
This probably helps me understand why the mode of story telling (fully developed rather than summary non-character centred) and the tone (adult, grave, serious) is what I have always looked for elsewhere in the other books and films.
Whilst ROP has flaws, and some rather basic ones, the tone and way the story is told fits my needs, Tom being a good example.
When I read the LOTR I love to make the journey with Frodo and watch his transformation. When I think of S3 I look forward to Elendil, Isildur, Galadriel and Arondir and the Dwarven story. Characters that I am invested in. And of course the evolution of Sauron.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 13, 6:04am)
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fantasywind
Rivendell
Oct 13, 3:15pm
Post #58 of 65
(743 views)
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THEY say that hah..the same ones who alter significantly things that shouldn't have been possible yet they did them in the show?! SERIOUSLY.? This is a joke! And the writers don't know themselves?! WHAT? YOU WROTE THIS PLOT!? And you don't know?! Hah...well it should be impossible for Gandalf to be there in the Second Age in Rhun..since this was specifically what he said he was NOT GOING...."to the East I GO NOT"...and it was SARUMAN who actually went there :) in general lore hahah.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 13, 4:00pm
Post #59 of 65
(733 views)
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There is some very late work by Mr. Tolkien in which he suggests that Olorin came to Middle Earth in the second age or even earlier.
"That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely,"
The showrunners make decisions which many may not like but they make those decisions knowing whether they are contradicting or following the Lore. They are entitled to do right by Saruman and yet place Tom in Rhun.
I will not respond to any of your other posts but you need to brush up on how the site works and captures text and Tolkien Lore before getting in a lather.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 13, 6:04pm
Post #60 of 65
(715 views)
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To be honest, I came to Tolkien by reading LotR first as well.
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I was 14 and my English Lit teacher lent LotR to me over Christmas. I devoured it. A little later I read The Hobbit and was disappointed. I wanted the more adult tone, characterization and epic scale of LotR. In retrospect, perhaps I was too old for the children’s book and too young to comprehend its greatness. Of course, I did come to appreciate TH for itself as I grew up.
I sometimes wonder if my initial impressions of TH influenced my attitude toward the Hobbit movies many decades later. I’m not denying the flaws in these films, but I did enjoy the epic scale, expanded world and more complex characterizations of some who are little more than names in the book.
I mentioned TH book and LotR movies as the main paths into Tolkien because I thought that was how the majority of fans got there.
Fantasywind, everyone on posting on this board is a Tolkien fan. Maybe it would he[p you if you got used to the idea that, two seasons in, a good number of the people posting here like RoP to varying degrees. The series is not flawless, even this second season which is so much better than the first, but I and others are enjoying it.
I recognize the changes to the lore but am trying to judge them on how they contribute to the story being told by the writers. I would have preferred the Stranger to be a Blue Wizard but it is what it is. I’m still hoping that the Dark Wizard is not Saruman. But I’m going to wait and see where they go with all this before I judge.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 13, 6:38pm
Post #61 of 65
(714 views)
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I recognize the changes to the lore but am trying to judge them on how they contribute to the story being told by the writers.
I doubt you are implying anything the writers do is therefor justified. There are probably unwarranted extremes such as transforming Galadriel into a murderous ally of Sauron in one of those "subvert expectations" deconstructive twists that writers seem to love these days. So I suspect even you'd have limits, as you express about Saruman. I think you can rest easy there unless the show runners claim it is "impossible" is an absolute lie. Fan tolerance about treating writers' intent as gospel varies.
We are allowed to vehemently dislike the show and express even outrage at poor adaptations, within the TOS limits. Each to their own opinion, right? Offering help to come around to understand opinion of those who like the show, and therefor quell dissent, is somewhat the same albeit more gentle and polite.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 15, 3:33am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 15, 2:21am
Post #62 of 65
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Caretaker.
Would you do me a huge favour please. If you do not like the tone I have adopted toward another poster, please report me to the administrators privately, rather than make comments about my style of writing in replies to other people in public.
As a highly intelligent bright person I am sure you understand if you call me out in public I feel obliged to do the same.
Many many thanks.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 15, 2:23am)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Oct 15, 3:47am
Post #63 of 65
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Admin reminder: please stick to chatting about the topic
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There's been some cleaning-up of this discussion thread where some comments have broken our Terms of Service; in particular, rule three:
3. Posts containing racial, ethnic, religious, political, sexual or other slurs, personal attacks (on a TORn user or other person) intentional attempts to drive posters away or make them feel unwelcome, or posts made with the purpose of criticizing or insulting another poster will be edited or removed. Continually antagonistic, negative non-discussion will be treated the same way.
Differing opinions are welcome; personal critiques and continual undermining are not.
If you think someone has broken the TOS, please alert an admin by putting a post on the Feedback board (with a link to the post in question) and we'll check it out. (You can also message an admin directly if you see that they're online.)
Thanks, everyone.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 15, 3:53am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 15, 5:37am
Post #64 of 65
(491 views)
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"We wants to be in the show."
"You cannot my love, to early."
"But the old man wrapped in a blanket, he's in show and those nasty Elves with the bright eyes and Orcses, I want to be in, precious."
"Precious not made yet my love."
"We wants it he has it, we knows. he is hiding it"
"No my love he is tricksy Elf with nice face."
"Garn."
"Man, his wife and neighbour makes own film for you, we shall see, then weee get the fame. Pays them all back for ignoring us."
"Whats it called. "Gollum The Great." "Gollum gets back at them."
"No my love."
"If nasty thieving Hobbits in show, I want to be."
"You wait my love, soon we got to Aotearoa and make nice film. Patience."
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 15, 5:43am)
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fantasywind
Rivendell
Nov 4, 1:15pm
Post #65 of 65
(167 views)
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You mean the texts outside the licensing?
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Which shouldn't be even a thing then, or if in any case the distinction....OLORIN...in his own form, not as an Istar (the text in The Nature of Middle-earth about the early five guardians of Elves at Cuivienen also gives the role to Olorin), the Second Age arrival of Olorin if Tolkien eventually decided was the case wouldn't be as we know him as.....because back then he wouldn't be Gandalf we know :)... simple as that. Plus the Silm mentioning of him wandering among Elves unseen or in form of as one of them :). What exactly you mean by "you need ot brush up on how hte site works and captures text and Tolkien Lore before getting in a lather"....I was addressing the stupidity of the claims of the showrunners....
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