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sharku
Lorien
Oct 4, 9:15pm
Post #26 of 65
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I know this from reading the appendices and other sources
As written, yes...however, in terms of intent, I'd argue that the intent was that the Istari counter Sauron....hence, is there a particular intention as to why Olorin had to turn up only in TA?
EDIT: and reading the above deep lore quotes, does suggest it could have occurred, even if he wasn't at that time "Gandalf" per se.
(This post was edited by sharku on Oct 4, 9:21pm)
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Lissuin
Valinor
Oct 4, 10:56pm
Post #27 of 65
(1867 views)
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He has had many names and many faces.
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Could the Dark Wizard be (dum-dee-dum!) SAURON?!
(in this series anyway, just for the sake of discussion, who wants to play?)
He was a shape-shifter and a sorcerer. It just occurred to me as I read your synopsis of the Variety article, and it's the only guess I haven't seen used yet. I'm not going to go through 16 episodes of ROP again this weekend to see if his appearances match up to the action. He did disappear for many episodes, until the very end. But he could probably pop in anytime anywhere in M-E if it suited his purposes.
For the sake of argument - and fun:
Sauron has to hide out for quite a while after he loses his boss. There are still evil creatures/acolytes of Morgoth's also lying low, I reckon. At some point, Sauron shape-shifts himself into Wizard form when he hears that Istar are headed for Middle-earth, bewitches a weird-sisters crew as he has bewitched Elves and Men into believing that he "knows" things as a Wizard-kind-of-being himself, and becomes their leader as they all wait together for the reappearance of their Dark Lord.
McKay: Tolkien also made note of only five wizards, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White…
Payne: There's Radagast the Brown and then there's two blue wizards—and that's all we'll say."
Sauron is not a Wizard, but that doesn't mean he can't put on the dress and carry a staff and do all the cool Wizard stuff, much better than Baby Grandelf when he first lands amongst the Harfoots.
Anywayz, it's my theory, and I'm going with it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 5, 2:04am
Post #28 of 65
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I know this from reading the appendices and other sources As written, yes...however, in terms of intent, I'd argue that the intent was that the Istari counter Sauron....hence, is there a particular intention as to why Olorin had to turn up only in TA? EDIT: and reading the above deep lore quotes, does suggest it could have occurred, even if he wasn't at that time "Gandalf" per se.
If we are going to speak in more general terms then, yes, Olórin could replace one of the Ithryn Luin in the Second Age with the same dual mission. There's just no compelling reason to utilize him in that manner. Even if Amazon couldn't obtain clearance to use the Blue Wizards, per se, they could still devise their own, original versions of the two unknown Istari. They certainly haven't been shy about inventing new characters up to now.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Oct 5, 2:19am
Post #29 of 65
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I do hope that if Amazon acquires more rights (or all) for the films, I hope they can change the designs of the Rings. Vilya and Narya look fine(and similar enough to the films), but I think the show's version of Nenya isn't very pretty. It's way too bulky for an elven ring haha.
Nenya looks to me like the kind of cheap junk that kids used to get out of quarter machines at the grocery store when I was very small. It really falls short of what I was hoping for.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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NecromancerRising
Grey Havens
Oct 5, 5:38am
Post #30 of 65
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That was my thought. In the books there are no direct references to the presence of Gandalf during the Second Age, but this example help us understand that perhaps, for Mr. Tolkien, this character could have traveled to Middle-earth in that period too, or at least that it was a concrete possibility. We are talking about a dialogue that took place before Galadriel’s reception of Nenya, and which therefore must be placed in the Second Age. Many of Mr.Tolkien's books leave great room for interpretation and alternative solutions, and much more of his material is still unexplored by the public. And if i combine that interpretation with Mr.Tolkien's letter 211 about the Blue Wizards "“I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to ‘enemy-occupied’ lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and ‘magic’ traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.” , my safest bet right now is that the DW's arc matches totally with the arc of a Blue Wizard and i seriously hope this is the case. Making him Saruman, would be a terrible choice and that would be a significant contradiction to what we see of their relationship later at the Third Age.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Oct 5, 5:38am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 5, 6:56am
Post #31 of 65
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Right now we have no way of knowing what the payoff is to having Gandalf in Rhun; rather than one of the other 2. (I say that because they have the rights to say there are five Istari).
So far the Stranger being Gandalf has drawn Bombadil into the story; again built on scraps in LOTR.
When the company arrives in Lorien in the LOTR Galadriel greatly wishes to speak with Gandalf and like Sauron the dialogue implies a past. Gandalf coming to the founding of the woodland realm (and Arondir too) and giving foresight council may be part of this. (The Lorien/Galadriel history is all over the place literally and constantly being changed so authorial representation would be going down a rabbit hole at this point).
However, we already know from Bombadil that the Dark Wizard and Sauron are his enemies in this story.
So Gandalf's story can be built around the showrunner's specific ideas; in particular the embroiding of Rhun, and through small moments in the LOTR extrapolated.
Could a better story have emerged by 'inventing' the other two, well one is channelling the Blues story. But by using Gandalf you can extrapolate from the LOTR text.
If I had been writing the screenplay I would not have put Sarumanisms in the DW's mouth unless I was trying to fool Gandalf, but given Gandalf's memory of Valinor at this point that seems far to subtle.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 5, 7:07am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 5, 7:04am
Post #32 of 65
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Making him Saruman, would be a terrible choice and that would be a significant contradiction to what we see of their relationship later in the Third Age.
They have denied and I hope they stick to it because making Saruman openly evil at any time before Gandalf is imprisoned will confuse every single segment of the audience. Book, Movie, Swahili you name it.
It's even lore in the Hobbit movies and more to the point with 5-3 = 2 there is no need.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 5, 7:05am)
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
Oct 5, 8:40am
Post #33 of 65
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Looks similar to how Tolkien drew it on the book cover //
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(This post was edited by AshNazg on Oct 5, 8:40am)
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Noria
Grey Havens
Oct 5, 2:23pm
Post #34 of 65
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I would have preferred the Stranger to be a Blue Wizard but he is Gandalf. The writers have been showing us that all along, just as they did with Halbrand/Sauron. We (I) just didn’t want to believe either that fact or that there was really not much of a mystery about it.
Maybe the idea is that Gandalf appears in Middle-earth in the Second Age, does whatever he does, then dies or otherwise goes back to Valinor. He could then return to M-e in the Third Age.
The Dark Wizard can still be a Blue, but I really hope he isn’t Saruman because that just makes a mess.
Perhaps the next thing will be to introduce Celeborn under a pseudonym, drop lots of hints that it’s him to drive us mad but not confirm it until he meets Galadriel, then say it was obvious all along. And it will have been. I hope that they cast the right actor as Celeborn because it will not be easy to match the excellent chemistry between Vickers and Clark.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 5, 8:55pm
Post #35 of 65
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We (I) just didn’t want to believe either that fact or that there was really not much of a mystery about it.
Right. I've been saying "It's Gandalf" since Season 1. And folks are coming to this revelation now? I have a certain faith, or lack thereof, in the writers. The production/writers now claim they're not setting up Mystery Boxes or trying to be clever, denying that area of criticism. I don't believe them. It's not credible. Like Halibrand, it was always and immediately obvious and transparent.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Oct 5, 8:59pm)
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 5, 9:09pm
Post #36 of 65
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The Dark Wizard can still be a Blue, but I really hope he isn’t Saruman because that just makes a mess.
You might have missed the show runners' clear statement that it's "impossible" that he's Saruman. That interview has also been quoted right here on these forums. So you can be comforted that I also believe it can't be Saruman. That would so egregiously undermine his timeline and story in all incarnations (movies, books, etc.) that the writers could never get away with it. Whether they came to such decision or realization post hoc, however, is anyone's guess.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Oct 5, 9:38pm
Post #37 of 65
(1629 views)
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But the 3D realization is less than it could have been.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 6, 1:32am
Post #38 of 65
(1588 views)
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The Dark Wizard can still be a Blue, but I really hope he isn’t Saruman because that just makes a mess. You might have missed the show runners' clear statement that it's "impossible" that he's Saruman. That interview has also been quoted right here on these forums. So you can be comforted that I also believe it can't be Saruman. That would so egregiously undermine his timeline and story in all incarnations (movies, books, etc.) that the writers could never get away with it. Whether they came to such decision or realization post hoc, however, is anyone's guess.
Yeah, I don't trust any such statements from Payne & McKay or from the Marketing Department. Or don't you remember being deliberately trolled in regards to Season 2? If Gandalf can be placed in the Second Age then there's nothing stopping the same thing being done with Saruman, whether it makes any sense or not. I wasn't surprised when it was confirmed that the Stranger was Gandalf, just disappointed.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 6, 2:40am
Post #39 of 65
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The Dark Wizard can still be a Blue, but I really hope he isn’t Saruman because that just makes a mess. You might have missed the show runners' clear statement that it's "impossible" that he's Saruman. That interview has also been quoted right here on these forums. So you can be comforted that I also believe it can't be Saruman. That would so egregiously undermine his timeline and story in all incarnations (movies, books, etc.) that the writers could never get away with it. Whether they came to such decision or realization post hoc, however, is anyone's guess. Yeah, I don't trust any such statements from Payne & McKay or from the Marketing Department. Or don't you remember being deliberately trolled in regards to Season 2? If Gandalf can be placed in the Second Age then there's nothing stopping the same thing being done with Saruman, whether it makes any sense or not. I wasn't surprised when it was confirmed that the Stranger was Gandalf, just disappointed.
If there's some sort of tricksy loophole that gives double meaning to "it's impossible," I'd believe you, which would mean they're being clever again with a Mystery Box, both of which they've denied doing. Heh. In that case, they're be liars any way you look at it, just like Benedict Cumberbatch lied to the press prior to release of "Star Trek Into Darkness," stating unequivocally that John Harrison wasn't Kahn. Payne & McKay were disciples of JJ Abrams, infamous for his Mystery Box (and lens glare). All that said, I'm leaning toward the guy being a "blue" wizard - not Saruman.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Oct 6, 2:42am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 6, 4:28am
Post #40 of 65
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If there's some sort of tricksy loophole that gives double meaning to "it's impossible," I'd believe you, which would mean they're being clever again with a Mystery Box, both of which they've denied doing. Heh. In that case, they're be liars any way you look at it, just like Benedict Cumberbatch lied to the press prior to release of "Star Trek Into Darkness," stating unequivocally that John Harrison wasn't Kahn. Payne & McKay were disciples of JJ Abrams, infamous for his Mystery Box (and lens glare). All that said, I'm leaning toward the guy being a "blue" wizard - not Saruman.
How's this for a loophole? They might be lying; it happens a lot in the entertainment business. The simple fact is, if it's not impossible for Gandalf to be the Stranger, it's not impossible for the Dark Wizard to be Saruman. However, it would be a clever subversion of audience expectations for the Istar to be a different wizard (as long as he isn't Radagast). I don't necessarily expect the show to give him any of the names that have already been attributed to the Blue Wizards unless, of course, they get permission to do so!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 6, 4:36am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 6, 6:26am
Post #42 of 65
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Oh way back in January, when a bunch of false rumors were dropped by the show staff. Some of them were pretty absurd! A couple have an ounce of truth to them. Here's a summary:
Amazon has newly expanded rights to plot points from The Silmarillion.
S2E1 opening scene is Eru using the secret flame to create Melkor.
Melkor (then) watches as Eru creates all the Valar and the Maiar.
Eru is a disembodied voice vaguely human shaped but no characteristics can be made out.
The secret flame is golden, as are all the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar are larger than the Maiar, but are bathed in a golden light and completely naked (the scenes were filmed with nude figures in strategic lighting.)
Sauron will be played primarily by three actors in Season 2.
Sauron — in Mairon form, and called such — is NOT Halbrand (Charlie Vickers) or Annatar (Gavi Singh Chera).
After the fourth interruption of the Song, several Maia meet and discuss Melkor’s discordance.
Mithrandir (Gandalf) is in this scene.
Mithrandir (Gandalf) is “almost” convinced to support Mairon’s (Sauron) agenda.
Mairon gives an epic speech, “The One has blessed me more so than all of you to see the potential of His creations, and what better way to forge their mettle than by allowing them to face Melkor’s discord and grow beyond what they think capable!”
Sauron tells the dwarves he apprenticed under Aulë, so they welcome him with open arms.
Sauron had a son who Adar killed.
Horse lovers rejoice! A dedicated “bottle” episode with little dialog will tell the story of the first Mearas (Editor: these are the great horses of the Rohirrim), Felaróf, and introduce Shadowfax.
Gandalf (Meteor Man) meets Shadowfax.
Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are in an episode.
They are played by the same actor and actress as Melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant from Episode 1.
The pair, as Bombadil and Goldberry, are serving out a punishment from Mandos per “a long-held fan theory” (Editor: this “long-held fan theory” is news to us.).
The season will end with Sauron forging the One Ring.
Link: https://www.theonering.net/...on-in-huge-new-ways/
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 6, 6:29am)
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Felagund
Rohan
Oct 6, 11:09pm
Post #43 of 65
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Reading the passage in context does shift things back to the probability of this being a Third Age vignette, I agree!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Oct 7, 12:48am
Post #44 of 65
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I was always under the impression that this list of false rumors you referred to was from an anonymous 4Chan post and not something put out as a smokescreen by Amazon (the original appeared to come from Russia and had weird, crude language such as "You will see tiddies (sic) and dongs". The rumor taken from sources close to the production, if I remember correctly, involved Celeborn:
“Sauron will try to deceive Galadriel again by taking the persona of Celeborn. Sauron sneaks back into Eregion as Celeborn.”
Oh way back in January, when a bunch of false rumors were dropped by the show staff. Some of them were pretty absurd! A couple have an ounce of truth to them. Here's a summary:
Don't mess with my favorite female elves.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 7, 2:03pm
Post #45 of 65
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I was always under the impression that this list of false rumors you referred to was from an anonymous 4Chan post and not something put out as a smokescreen by Amazon (the original appeared to come from Russia and had weird, crude language such as "You will see tiddies (sic) and dongs". The rumor taken from sources close to the production, if I remember correctly, involved Celeborn: “Sauron will try to deceive Galadriel again by taking the persona of Celeborn. Sauron sneaks back into Eregion as Celeborn.”
Oh way back in January, when a bunch of false rumors were dropped by the show staff. Some of them were pretty absurd! A couple have an ounce of truth to them. Here's a summary:
I won't say for certain that I'm not confusing these particular rumors with another series of rumors, but they could have been both posted anonymously on 4Chan and have their origin with Amazon. But other sites, in addition to TORn, covered the issue back when the revelation came to light.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Oct 7, 3:45pm
Post #46 of 65
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I put more thought into it, and while I know the showrunners
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decided to have Gandalf in the Second Age because of the paragraph in the History of Middle-earth book hinting that he was possibly there during the 2nd Age, I wonder if the show runners are trying to have him be the role of Olorin instead of Gandalf. (I know it's the same character, but hear me out.) Olorin was his Maia named, and in the show he even says, "Gandalf, that's what they will call me" a good throw back to the Two Towers when Aragorn called him Gandalf, but I wonder if that is also him seeing part of the future knowing that he will be Gandalf the Grey. Again, just me speculating.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Oct 7, 3:51pm
Post #47 of 65
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I'm honestly agreeing with you, DGHCaretaker
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As I've had more time to sit on it, I do think the Dark Wizard is a Blue, and not Saruman. If they wanted him to be Saruman, they would be playing their guessing games like they tried to before with Gandalf and Sauron, but they are being more upfront with him, so it's safe to say he is one of the Blues.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 7, 4:07pm
Post #48 of 65
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Someone here - apologies for not remember who it was - made the astute observation that the lighting in a scene with the Dark (Blue) Wizard was quite blue. If the production doesn't have have rights to use their names or color, or they're being clever again, lighting color is a nice work-around.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Oct 7, 4:07pm)
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Oct 7, 4:12pm
Post #49 of 65
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I didn't notice that at first, but next time I'll watch it, I'll make sure I look for that. Very neat!
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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NecromancerRising
Grey Havens
Oct 9, 4:32am
Post #50 of 65
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regarding the storyline of Gandalf.
They will make a story with Gandalf failing in Secong Age against the Blue Wizards (will we have any similar casting in season 3?), Khamul and Sauron,and taking responsibility for the loss of the East, he returns to Valinor, not wanting to return to Middle-earth again, let alone the East. After Isildur's death, since he is shown in the last episode of the series, we see him on a ship arriving at the Grey Havens with Saruman and Radagast.
I wish they have such a turn in mind. The Dark Wizard told Gandalf that 'you convinced me to come to Middle-earth to face Sauron' while as I recall Gandalf was the most hesitant of all. Showing in the series that he had eaten his face off against Sauron and the Blues in the East, which is why he was reluctant to come back, would have been perfect in my opinion.
How does that sound?
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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