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ArathornJax
Rohan
Oct 4, 11:56pm
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Favorite Song/Poem from Fellowship, Two Towers or Return of the King
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What is your favorite song/poem from the written books? For me it has changed over the years but this is the current one, I Sit Beside the Fire and Think. For me it is because it mentions the seasons and I do love the seasons (though winter is far too long some years). I love that the verse stanza is about life right now, and how being involved in life is a truly wonderful thing. It reminds me how much I LOVE being in nature and experiencing it. The second stanza is about where I kinda of feel where I am at now. I'll be 60 next spring and now that I have grandchildren, I reflect how much the world has change since I was born in 1965 and I think how much more it will change in their lifetime. I also am coming to the point that I realize that though I have seen a LOT of places in my life, there are going to many places I want to see that I will never get to. Last, last of all and I do think this is one of the themes of LOTR, life is about the relationships we have with each other, both family, friends and loved ones. It is about being interconnected with each other and valuing and treasuring each other and our time together. I now often wonder where the people I have known in my life, that I was once close with are, and what they are doing as I have allowed time or distance to dampen the relationship. I sit beside the fire and think Of all that I have seen Of meadow-flowers and butterflies In summers that have beenOf yellow leaves and gossamer In autumns that there were With morning mist and silver sun And wind upon my hair. I sit beside the fire and think Of how the world will be When winter comes without a spring That I shall ever seeFor still there are so many things That I have never seen In every wood in every spring There is a different green. I sit beside the fire and think Of people long ago And people who will see a world That I shall never knowBut all the while I sit and think Of times there were before I listen for returning feet And voices at the door
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts." J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6, 11:35am
Post #2 of 17
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Welcome (back) to the Reading Room, ArathornJax
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(As far as can see from Users Posts we haven't "seen you" here since about 2008 - before my time then, so welcome back!.) Thank you for that lovely introduction to "I sit beside the fire..." . I like that poem too, for much the same reasons. Also it seems to me to be a relation or continuation of "The road goes ever on and on..." I'm not quite sure what the link is that I think I see. The two poems have very similar rhythms, I notice, so perhaps it is that. But also in "I sit beside the fire..." we see Bilbo contemplating his retirement from adventuring and travelling - while the road is going to go on of course (whatever you take it to mean symbollically or literally), he'll be staying put. One of the things I like about "The road goes ever on and on..." is that it is not one poem but a recurring one that reappears with subtly chaged wording. Or maybe it is one poem, but revealed in segments? I've never been quite sure what to make of it. Do the shifts in wording reflect changes in the characters' states of mind, or situation? Or is that over-complicating things? I've never quite decided. Certainly it's possible when Frodo is reluctantly leaving the Shire and recites:
...Pursuing it with weary feet, Until it joins some larger way, Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. ...to note that his feet now are 'weary' (not now 'eager' as in the earlier version). And that he is headed to Rivendell, where many paths and errands will most certainly meet. (I think Frodo does already know inwardly whither he is going after that: but unlike Sam he's still in denial.) I think the possibilities for interpreting "The road goes ever on and on..." are wide. Tolkien certainly used verse for several purposes within LOTR. Sometimes we get 'lore' (as when Gimli chants a short history of Durin and Moria). Sometimes we get insights into a character's frame of mind; such as when Sam cannot find Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol: all seems hopeless and yet he sings of his inability to give up. Sometimes we get glimpses of other stories - like Aragorn reciting something about Beren & Luthien. And of course sometimes it is just for fun! I doubt there is much to be gained by mining the Crickhollow bath song for 'lore'! Moreover, of course, there can be more than one purpose. Biilbo's song of Earendil is an adaptation of an earlier poem Tolkien made. I think it is mostly the fun of throwing around all those tricky words - but a reader can learn about Earendil. That it is a very tricky form I can attest, having at one time thought up the starter line "Earendil liked Grand Marnier" (as part of some 'Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory" fun we were having). Later I decided to see how much further I could take it. It was tricky indeed! I had fun and ended up with an enhanced respect for Tolkien's poetry chops. I also still have a soft spot both for Tolkien's original and for my parody.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Oct 6, 5:34pm
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Hey, maybe we could discuss the poetry and in-book poets, next!
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Or, maybe we're already doing it here! (Anyway, I plan to post a discussion thing for our characters soon. Got waylaid by family health issues.) Yes, I kinda see these two as sister poems. Or, the Road poem when it turns and is finally at rest. I was always struck by the change from eager to weary. As a young person reading it, I found that annoying. I was always eager for the next adventure, so why shouldn't everyone be? Reading now as an adult, it's the poigency that's striking. And the character of Frodo revealed--he just keeps going whether he would want to otherwise or not. Gandalf' wisdom in choosing the right person yet again. And, oh my goodness, what a re-working! I somehow think Bilbo would have approved, or at least winked. (I felt tipsy just reading it. Roll out the barrel! [but check for dwarves first . . .]).
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Oct 6, 5:36pm
Post #4 of 17
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Yes, I think you've really summed it up perfectly. It has a unique warmth to it, not present in his other poems that I remember.
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
Oct 6, 5:49pm
Post #5 of 17
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Tolkien invented his own meter for the poem Errantry, he was incredibly proud of it (for good reason) but it proves so complicated that he never used it again. Take some time to appreciate what he's actually doing with the rhyming scheme and syllables here: He threaded gems in necklaces, but recklessly she squandered them and fell to bitter quarrelling; then sorrowing he wandered on, and there he left her withering, as shivering he fled away; with windy weather following on swallow-wing he sped away. There's also a fascinating, complicated use of alliteration throughout. I've tried writing my own verses using this meter and it's an enjoyable exercise that I recommend to everyone.
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
Oct 6, 5:53pm
Post #6 of 17
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Correction: Errantry is not in Lord of the Rings
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Since Errantry is not in LotR and nor is Progress in Bimble Town (another favourite). I'll have to change my answer to the wonderful poem 'Where There's a Whip There's a Way' from the Rankin/Bass Return of the King.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Oct 6, 5:54pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6, 6:09pm
Post #7 of 17
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But your point about the technical difficulties of 'Errantry' is still valid of course!
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Since Errantry is not in LotR and nor is Progress in Bimble Town (another favourite). I'll have to change my answer to the wonderful poem 'Where There's a Whip There's a Way' from the Rankin/Bass Return of the King. But your point about the technical difficulties of 'Errantry' is still valid of course! And boy isn't it. Was it 'Errantry' that Tolkien published somewhere obscure and then later found someone came to him with a mildly garbled version of the poem hoping (in all innocence) that he might know who the author was? And now (because my brain is silly an dindisciplined) you have me imagining a Lipps Inc. version of "Won't you take me to Bumble town?" Video here if you don't remember the song from 1980 (I do, but then I am old). NB the video has some flashing lights, to let you know should that be unpleasant or worse for some folks
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
Oct 6, 6:13pm
Post #8 of 17
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My interpretation of Sit Beside the Fire...
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It reminds me of a poem I forget the name of, comparing a dying fire to the temporary nature of life. The fire of course symbolises life itself... It's similar to Shakespeare's Sonnet 73: In me thou seest the twilight of such day As after sunset fadeth in the west, Which by and by black night doth take away, Death's second self that seals up all in rest; In me thou seest the glowing of such fire That on the ashes of his youth doth lie, As the deathbed whereon it must expire, Consum'd with that which it was nourish'd by; This thou perceiv'st, which makes thy love more strong, To love that well, which thou must leave ere long. This is particularly apparent in the closing stanza: I sit beside the fire and think Of people long ago And people who will see a world That I shall never know He's sitting and thinking that when his own fire burns out there will be people after himself he will never meet. What lives will they have? What sort of world will they live in? And then he ends: But all the while I sit and think Of times there were before I listen for returning feet And voices at the door. This is after the fire has burned out, he is waiting for the returning feet of his loved ones in the afterlife.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 6, 6:36pm
Post #9 of 17
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Appropriately to this thread...
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My Earendil parody is sort of in memorium to my friend John, because he told me the story on which it is based. It was about the party he held to celebrate his promotion as a British Army Officer. Guests each brought a bottleof something, and somebody decided that it would be amusing to add everything to the punch. And then of course, each time a new guest arrived, the new bottle had to be added, and everyone had to drink some. (Somehow, John managed to excuse himself, and so was a relatively sober witness to the ensuing chaos.) Of course the more they did it, the funnier it seemed to do it again when the next guest arrived. Until... ... ...the next morning when John had to explain to the Colonel the sorry state of the parade, coming up with some improvised story or another (which the Colonel decided to pretend was true, though I suspect the real reason was probably really obvious to anyone with experience of what groups of young men get up to. ).
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
Oct 6, 7:03pm
Post #10 of 17
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I did not know that piece of trivia!
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I can't verify it anywhere, but I'll take your word for it. I hope it's true! I realised that while Errantry is not in LotR, The Song of Earendil, (derived from Errantry) is. So there's my honest answer. Also, when my father died of cancer I read Frodo's Lament for Gandalf at his funeral. So that will always be special to me.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Oct 6, 7:07pm)
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 6, 10:02pm
Post #11 of 17
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Was it 'Errantry' that Tolkien published somewhere obscure and then later found someone came to him with a mildly garbled version of the poem hoping (in all innocence) that he might know who the author was? From Letter 133 written in June 1952 to Rayner Unwin:
As for 'Errantry': it is a most odd coincidence that you should ask about that. For only a few weeks ago I had a letter from a lady unknown to me making a similar enquiry. She said that a friend had recently written out for her from memory some verses that had so taken her fancy that she was determined to discover their origin. He had picked them up from his son-in-law who had learned them in Washington D.C. (!); but nothing was known about their source save a vague idea that they were connected with English universities. Being a determined person she apparently applied to various Vice-Chancellors, and Bowra [then vice-chancellor of Oxford] directed her to my door. I must say that I was interested in becoming 'folk-lore'. Also it was intriguing to get an oral version - which bore out my views on oral tradition (at any rate in early stages): sc. that the 'hard words' are well preserved, and the more common words altered, but the metre is often disturbed. He goes on to say that a printed version appeared in "The Oxford Magazine" of November 1933, and he thinks this is how it eventually came to his correspondent's notice. Quite a journey!
The Passing of Mistress Rose My historical novels Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there? - A Room With a View
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Meneldor
Valinor
Oct 6, 10:29pm
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The grog bowl is an ancient and honored tradition at military celebrations. Your friend was following in the footsteps of many proud forebears.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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ArathornJax
Rohan
Oct 7, 2:30am
Post #13 of 17
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Long time observer Back to Posting
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Thanks, yes, I haven't posted until recently since 2010. I am taking a break from social media, shut down my accounts for now and am going back to forums for now and for LOTR this is one of them. Thanks to everyone in sharing your insights and similar material! It made me think if I am done wanting more "adventures" and just want to enjoy the remainder of my life. Just seeking to pay my bills, and have more time for the things that matter most. Tolkien is one of them but above all it is friends, families.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts." J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7, 1:40pm
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I had this hunch that it was a sort of behaviour not just found in -- gosh it must have been in --a British Armoured Brigade somewhere in Allied-occupied Germany at some time between 1946 and 1948! It's maybe amazing that our troops survive poisoning by their comrades long enough to engage the enemy As you can imagine from those dates John was certainly in the "I sit besde the fire and think" phase of life when I knew him, and it's many years now since he died at a ripe old age. But it's still fun to remember him.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7, 1:53pm
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Ah splendid - that is what I was remembering!
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Ah splendid - that is what I was remembering! Thanks for posting it. I went looking in Hammond and Scull Readers' Companionand while I didn't of course find that letter, I did find some other interesting stuff: 233 (I: 246). Eärendil was a mariner... - The long and complex history of this poem is discussed at length by Christopher Tolkien in The Treason of Isengard, Chapter 5. Here it will suffice to say that probably in the early 1930s Tolkien wrote a set of verses called Errantry. The earliest extant version begins: There was a merry passenger, / a messenger, an errander. This developed through five further texts until the work was published in the Oxford Magazine for 9 November 1933 (reprinted in The Treason of Isengard). When, years later, Tolkien wanted a poem for Bilbo to recite at Rivendell in The Lord of the Rings, he developed Errantry further through fifteen more texts, until it was concerned with Eärendil, a pivotal figure in his mythology. The earlier of these versions begin 'There was a merry messenger' (or a variant); the six later texts, probably after a long interval of time, begin 'Eärendel [or Eärendil] was a mariner'. The third version in this second category was published in The Lord of the Rings in 1954; but three more, further revised versions followed. Christopher Tolkien believes that these final texts were mislaid by his father, and not to be found when the typescript of The Lord of the Rings had to be sent to the publisher, so that a less developed version came into print, 'as it should not have done. It looks also as if these lost texts did not turn up again until many years had passed, by which time my father no longer remembered the history The Treason of Isengard, p. 103). The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion, by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2005. Revised edition, London: HarperCollins, 2008. Third edition, London: HarperCollins, 2014. They then follow that with the poem in what they (and Christopher Tolkien) consider "the ultimate version" and then discuss the dilemma they faced when preparing their 2004 edition of LOTR (The 50th anniversary edition, later reproduced to make the 60th). That is, should they replace the version to which readers had become accustomed with the one that Tolkien would presumably have published had he not mislaid it? In the end they decided not to do that, though as they say there would be cogent reasons to support either choice. So I suppose that is another instance where as a critic rightly said "...there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts and these are not necessarily the same."
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 7, 2:56pm
Post #16 of 17
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I can see how that works. And I loved the comparison to the sonnet. As it happens my own interpretation of Tolkien's last stanza are a bit different. I like to think it stays in this world. According to that reading, although Bilbo has been told that further adventures with the Ring are not for him, he remains engaged with the world. In that reading the returning feet would be Frodo and friends coming back from their travels safely, with all the news and information about foreign parts that is still of interest. And because that has been my set idea for a long time, it is interesting to me to read your alternative! May I offer a poem to compare in return, because it also offers that interest in the future balancing memories of the past (that I see in I sit beside the fire..) - The Middle, by Ogden Nash: When I remember bygone days I think how evening follows morn; So many I loved were not yet dead, So many I love were not yet born. Oh and: any excuse to bring up a poem that has always moved me deeply and which also balances pessimism and optimism; things done and things that might yet be done, despite it all: “Everything Changes” by Cicely Herbert, with its deliberate close link to “Everything Changes” (Alles wandelt sich) by Bertolt Brecht. Both produced here, with commentary (though I don't as it happens take Herbert so literally as the commentator does). Both of those poems also have a slick mirror-image form that I like very much. I'm thinking now about how Tolkien's whole story seems to me to have both so much energy to get on and explore, improve or defend the world, and a deep melancholy for what is already lost, or must now be.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Oct 27, 4:22pm
Post #17 of 17
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I got the Donald Swann songbook as a teenager
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I got 'The Road Goes Ever On" over fifty years ago, and used to play the songs on the piano and my guitar. I loved so many of them with those tunes. I think the one you mentioned was probably my favorite (and now, half a century later, it has a special poignancy. I'm 68 and feeling old. When I'm out in my garden and see strands of gossamer this time of year, I think of it.) My other favorite is "In Western Lands," the song Sam sings outside Cirith Ungol. But I love so many of them. Swann's tune for "Errantry" is brilliant. His tune for "Upon the Hearh the Fire is Red" is so jaunty that when I first heard the tune Pippin sang to those words in the movie I couldn't wrap my head around it. It was beautiful, but sounded so wrong to me. And Swann's versionn of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is the one I used to memorize those words. He mixes it with "I Sit Beside the Fire" to give a feel for the "voices at the door."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GNU Terry Pratchett ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories leleni at hotmail dot com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Oct 27, 4:25pm)
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