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Those wicked orcs (Part 1) “I am not quite happy about these beings”

noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 1 2024, 10:05am

Post #1 of 14 (11875 views)
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Those wicked orcs (Part 1) “I am not quite happy about these beings” Can't Post

I’ve been doing some reading about orcs this summer. And about good and evil in Middle-earth. And about how free will affects that. And whether orcs have free will and the capacity to think morally; and what that would mean. It’s a vast subject, of course. I have pretty much found one thing to read and then thought about it and read on to something related: like following a trail in the woods. I haven ‘t even explored all the other turnings I could have taken when there was a fork in the trail.
In writing it up I’ve ended up with what looks like an essay of sorts, and here it is. But it is probably best not to think of it as an essay, with the expectation that I’ll either do a thorough survey or make an argument that comes to particular conclusions. Think of it rather as a walk in the woods!
It's become a long piece (grown in the telling!), and so I’ve decided it would be more readable if I post it in several parts. But it is one thought process. Replies to this sequence of posts are Most Welcome (did you read that in an Aragorn voice? So did I!) and if you’re not sure which bit to reply to I suggest you reply to the final post in the sequence. That way we won’t end up with overlapping discussions attached to different parts, and it should be easier to follow the discussion. Thanks.

So now here is Part 1: “I am not quite happy about these beings”:

Let’s start in 1967, with an article written by WH Auden for The Tolkien Journal. Auden equates the ability to speak with the capacity for moral reasoning. But he becomes troubled when he thinks of orcs:


Quote
In the Secondary World of Middle-earth, there exist, in addition to men, at least seven species capable of speech and therefore of moral choice--Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Wizards, Ents, Trolls, Orcs. Of these, dwarves, hobbits, wizards, and ents are like us in that each individual is both good and evil: one may resist temptation more successfully than another, but even the best may fall, and even the worst may repent.

[skipping here Auden's view of elves - irrelevant to this discussion and possibly a bit distracting to a forum that has had access to The Silmarillion (aka Elves Behaving Badly) when Auden had not]…

Unlike us, too, are the Trolls of Mordor and the Orcs, for they appear to be irredeemably evil and incapable of repentance: on meeting either, there is only one thing to do: kill. I must confess I am not quite happy about these beings, for their existence seems to imply that it is possible for a species that can speak, and, therefore, make moral choices, to be evil by nature. I can readily believe that Sauron, by cross-breeding and training of creatures already in existence, can produce the pterodactyl-like creatures ridden by the Nazgul, for these are "dumb" animals, who can be used for evil purposes but cannot be called evil in themselves. I am not so ready to believe that the Orcs were bred by Morgoth and the Mordor Trolls by Sauron, for neither are simply animals. If Evil can not only seduce the good but also create beings who are evil from the beginning, then one cannot, as Tolkien does, call God "The One"; there must, in that case, be Two, a good One and an evil One.

And I have a moral, as well as a theological, objection. In the Primary World we are all aware of our deplorable tendency, when our interests, still more the interests of our social group, come into conflict with others, to identify our cause with Good and that of our enemies with Evil. There have been Just Wars: most of us would agree that it was as morally necessary for England [sic] and the United States to resist Germany and Japan by force of arms as it was for Rohan and Gondor to resist the armies of Saruman and Sauron. Individual men can be wicked: Hitler was not another Sauron, but he seems to have come as close to being one as is possible for a mortal. It would, however, be grossly unjust to say that all Germans and Japanese, even the majority, were wicked.

Even in a Secondary World, I feel that irredeemable wickedness should be ascribed only to individuals who are nameable or countable— Sauron, the Lieutenant of Barad-dur, the nine Nazgul--not to anonymous crowds. When it comes to the men who fought on Sauron's side, I am happy to see that Tolkien recognises this. If we knew more about the historical reasons for the enmity between Gondor and the Haradrim or the Easterlings, we can be certain we should find that Gondor was not completely innocent. Consequently, reconciliation is possible; Aragorn can pardon and make peace with them.

Auden, W. H. (1967) "Good and Evil in The Lord of the Rings," Tolkien Journal: Vol. 3: Iss. 1, Article 1. Available at: https://dc.swosu.edu/tolkien_journal/vol3/iss1/1



I’d like to make several points about this! Furthering the idea that this is a walk in the woods, I see this as a point where several paths diverge (or “where many paths and errands meet”, possibly). In such situations it is good practice to stop and check the map. “And whither then?” Well, I’ve decided already! But let’s first look at where the other paths might lead. And if it seems like a shame not to walk them, then the answer is simple in this community – please do it in replies to these posts, or whole new posts that you write in future taking on one or more of these points.

So let’s look at Auden’s Theological objection:

I wondered whether Auden would still have his ‘theological objection’ if he thought that orcs and trolls were corrupted or changed from pre-existing beings, rather than created de novo by an Evil One. This is what both Treebeard and Frodo think and was one of the several different ideas Tolkien tried out at different times.

(Tolkien had several different ideas about the origin story of the orcs, making the subject a complicated and contentious area of Tolkien scholarship and fandom. I’m going to avoid it as far as possible here.)

I found that Auden had written to Tolkien to ask “if the notion of the Orcs, an entire race that was irredeemably wicked, was not heretical” to quote the introduction to Letter 269, which is Tolkien’s reply. (Auden was an early and important supporter of Tolkien’s fiction, and the two of them exchanged several letters). Here’s Tolkien’s in Letter 269:


Quote

“With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don’t feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable. . . . .”


Some points from that:
  • Tolkien doesn’t “feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology” and so caution is needed if using formalized Christian theology to infer things about LOTR – it doesn’t follow that the reading is what Tolkien intended.
  • But on the other hand, Tolkien says “I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief “-- including, presumably the requirement to ‘love thy neighbour’ as one of the two top requirements Christian thought and belief. This makes Auden’s moral objection a valid one, I think. (We’ll come to the moral objection next!) By the way, loving thy neighbour is not normally taken to mean you have to allow or assist him to murder your other neighbour, or to enslave her, or burn down her house, or other such things. How to resist your unneighbourly neighbour if he does want to do that sort of thing is of course a poser (more on that in the ‘moral objection part, coming up!).
  • The ‘by us at any rate’ leaves open the possibility that redemption can be done ‘by someone else’ (God or God working via someone, perhaps: and the equivalents in Middle-earth).
  • There is perhaps an interesting wider discussion to be had about whether a speculative fiction author ‘ought’ to feel under obligations to fit in with theology, or even their own religion’s or society’s typical thoughts and beliefs. Speculative fiction, almost by definition, involves exploring things that are not as they are believed to be in the Primary world. Arguably, the storyteller should be free to exaggerate or reduce, invert or otherwise adapt things to fit the Tale, or to make a secondary world in which something is concrete where that thing is only metaphor in the Primary world. But I won’t explore that here.
  • I imagine that Tolkien’s’ ‘consonance’ with Christianity is of vital importance to some fans, and irrelevant or a bit uncomfortable to others (depending, on bleed-through from what each of us has experienced or been told about Christians and Christianity in the Primary world.) Potentially that is an interesting discussion too, if it can be kept respectful. But I’m not going there right now.


Next, I have a lot to say about Auden’s ‘moral objection’. But I think I’ll stop Part 1 here.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 1 2024, 2:08pm

Post #2 of 14 (11838 views)
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Mercy of the Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

One sentence of Auden's particularly stood out to me:

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Unlike us, too, are the Trolls of Mordor and the Orcs, for they appear to be irredeemably evil and incapable of repentance: on meeting either, there is only one thing to do: kill.


This is not, in fact, what we are told, in The Hobbin, in regards to the Elves and the Orcs. The Wood-elves of Mirkwood, in general at least, will treat even captured Orcs with decency and even a degree of mercy (if not kindness). Admittedly, the changes of an Orc being captured and not immediately killed on the borders of Lorien seem very slight, but I would expect that a captured Orc might be treated similarly in the Golden Wood.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 1 2024, 2:34pm

Post #3 of 14 (11828 views)
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Are you thinking of something Tolkien wrote? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you remember or find a citation? I don't recall any orc prisoners in LOTR, and obviously Auden missed it too if you are right. Nor do I remember kindly treated orc captives TH (where they would be called 'goblins' I suppose, and might or might not be the same as orcs: another contentious area of fandom!)
So I may have missed something, or maybe you are thinking of Tolkien-themed entertainments written later, by others - the secondary secondary world, as it were.
It is easy to misremember where one read/saw something!

There could be a very interesting study of how people writing fan-fiction, games, movies, TV etc. had interpreted or adapted orcs; and whether that had changed over time; and whether any changes related to changes in society etc.

But goodness knows I wrote enough just sticking to LOTR, so such a study would be well beyond me.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Felagund
Gondor


Sep 1 2024, 2:53pm

Post #4 of 14 (11823 views)
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better than an airport book ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading your posts en route to the airport and very much enjoying! Will reply soon!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 1 2024, 3:22pm

Post #5 of 14 (11822 views)
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Enjoy! and bon voyage [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you're not traveling Barad-dûr Air: I've heard they always make you travel on the red eye Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 1 2024, 6:34pm

Post #6 of 14 (11809 views)
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The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Can you remember or find a citation? I don't recall any orc prisoners in LOTR, and obviously Auden missed it too if you are right. Nor do I remember kindly treated orc captives TH (where they would be called 'goblins' I suppose, and might or might not be the same as orcs: another contentious area of fandom!)
So I may have missed something, or maybe you are thinking of Tolkien-themed entertainments written later, by others - the secondary secondary world, as it were.
It is easy to misremember where one read/saw something!

There could be a very interesting study of how people writing fan-fiction, games, movies, TV etc. had interpreted or adapted orcs; and whether that had changed over time; and whether any changes related to changes in society etc.

But goodness knows I wrote enough just sticking to LOTR, so such a study would be well beyond me.



I'm citing The Hobbit when Thorin & Company are captured by the Wood-elves, specifically when the elf-king is interrogating Thorin at the end of the chapter "Flies and Spiders":


Quote
Then the elves put things on him [Thorin] and shut him in one of the inmost caves with strong wooden doors, and left him. They gave him food and drink, plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon.


“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 1 2024, 6:36pm)


Felagund
Gondor


Sep 1 2024, 7:38pm

Post #7 of 14 (11796 views)
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a bit more on Orc captives & mercy [In reply to] Can't Post

Alongside Otaku-sempai's citation, the trusty 'Myths Transformed' essay (HoMe X) has this:


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Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

*[footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).


As we know, there's a whole lot more in that essay on Orcs, including Tolkien's complex and evolving matrix when it came to Orcish origins, free will and redeemability. As he revised one element, he would often conclude that he'd have to tweak another for it to match the change - and on it went...!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 1 2024, 8:14pm

Post #8 of 14 (11786 views)
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Thanks! I see what you mean now // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 1 2024, 8:17pm

Post #9 of 14 (11783 views)
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"- and on it went...!" Yes indeed - but nice to think Auden was wrong about his "only kill" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Rohan

Sep 1 2024, 8:26pm

Post #10 of 14 (11788 views)
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The Nature of the Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

Rather than the usual way of trying to fit Orcs into a realistic secondary-world framework as a species with realistic ecology and sociology and everything, I think it might be worth considering taking a more fantastical route and considering the outlandish-sounding possibility that... wait for it...

Mordor is literally (not metaphorically) Hell.

Udûn = Hell
Utumno = Hell (in Quenya)
Angband = Iron Prison, also referred to as the Hells of Iron

We are discussing fantasy literature, after all.

Also, if we take "Mordor" to be derived from moru+dor (meaning hidden land, which would fit given the surrounding mountain ranges) rather than mor+dor, we get an etymological connection to the English word "Hell", which is derived from a Proto-Germanic word that means "concealed place, netherworld".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hell

Mordor even has a Lake of Fire in it.

See also the etymology for "orc":
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orc


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Probably from Italian orco (“man-eating giant”); later revived by J. R. R. Tolkien, partly after Old English orc, which he took to mean "demon". Both are from Latin Orcus (“the underworld; the god Pluto”)


This derivation supports the idea that Tolkien really meant the Orcs to be demons.

I myself have done only preliminary research relating to this, but notably in The Book of Lost Tales there is explicit support for the idea of Angband as an afterlife destination:


Quote
Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that Melko's evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and Fui [Nienna] reads their hearts. Some then she keeps in Mandos beneath the mountains and some she drives forth beyond the hills and Melko seizes them and bears them to Angamandi, or the Hells of Iron, where they have evil days. Some too, and these are the many, she sends aboard the black ship Mornië, who lieth ever and anon in a dark harbour of the North awaiting those times when the sad pomp winds to the beach down slow rugged paths from Mandos.


(Nienna is a terrifying death goddess in The Book of Lost Tales, which overall portrays the Valar in a much less flattering light than the published Silmarillion. I think this less flattering light is likely to be the more authentic light.)

So the solution to why the Orcs are always evil would be because only severe sinners are eligible to become Orcs. The "inefficiencies" of Mordor, in light of being ruled by an entity who loves efficiency, can be explained by Mordor being highly efficient at meting out scheduled punishment.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 2 2024, 6:26pm

Post #11 of 14 (11662 views)
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Well, that's a novel idea (to me at least)! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm probably not the best person to answer or discuss it further though. That would be better done by someone who:
  • Has studied Tolkien's various ideas about orcs over his writing career
  • Is familiar with Catholic ideas about Hell (ideally, what that theology would have been at the time while Tolkien was inventing orcs - pre Vatican II, if that made any difference, for example)

Your solution would remove Auden's two problems, I agree. If someone becomes an orc only by virtue of being dammed, then it becomes a matter of definition that all orcs are dammed.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Rohan

Sep 7 2024, 9:27pm

Post #12 of 14 (11087 views)
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Greek Mythology Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's also relevant going to the Greek mythology here.

Notably Morgul Vale appears to take after the Asphodel Meadows of the Greek netherworld, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphodel_Meadows


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Edith Hamilton suggested that the asphodel of these fields are not exactly like the asphodel of our world, but are "presumably strange, pallid, ghostly flowers."


Tolkien could well have read Hamilton's book (published in 1942) and taken inspiration from it.


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A different proposal explains the name of the land as 'field of ashes' basing it on sphodelos or spodelos, an alternative version of the name


Morgul Vale indeed becomes a field of ashes when Aragorn burns the flowers.

Valinor also shares notable similarities with the exclusive and paradisaical Elysian Fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium


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Only mortals related to the gods and other heroes could be admitted past the river Styx. Later, the conception of who could enter was expanded to include those chosen by the gods, the righteous, and the heroic.



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The Elysian Fields were, according to Homer, located on the western edge of the Earth by the stream of Okeanos


Originally only the Elves were allowed to sail to the West, but then we start getting exceptions such as Frodo.


Felagund
Gondor


Sep 8 2024, 7:26pm

Post #13 of 14 (10883 views)
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into the West [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read the Odyssey in English a few times and, when pushed, parts thereof in Homeric Greek, and I've never made a connection between the Asphodel Meadows and the Morgul Vale. Fascinating stuff!

As well as in Greek mythology, the concept of 'the West' as an otherwordly / post-mortal plane existed in pre-Christian Irish myth. I have my suspicions that Tolkien was aware of multiple mythological systems and their construct of 'heavenly realms'.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Oct 16 2024, 8:18am

Post #14 of 14 (9170 views)
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Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing that I have noticed about Orcs. Is that if there are only a few of them and they just stay in the holes in the mountains then they are no trouble. But they do seem rather easily dominated by some evil force such as Sauron, Morgoth and grow in numbers rather rapidly, then start raiding.

 
 

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