Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Faramir Discussion 5: the Houses of Healing.
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2024, 3:07am

Post #26 of 53 (2232 views)
Shortcut
Yes, agree with this point [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As well as Faramir's case being the most urgent, a more pragmatic reason may be that Aragorn has immediate need of Faramir. Faramir is now the Steward of Gondor, and his ready allegiance is of great value.

Faramir being the Steward of Gondor is also the very reason why he is first. His ailments were also the most pressing to heal.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2024, 3:11am

Post #27 of 53 (2234 views)
Shortcut
But i wonder how Athelas worked on a physical level? [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember it revived Frodo to the present when he was suffering from the Morgul Wound but now Athelas works to revive from the Black Breath. Does the smell of it make the patient more aware of his or her surroundings and bring them bakc to the present?
I was always fascinated by athelas. We do not imbibe it or apply it but it's always used to freshen the room and let the patient smell it. It is an interesting herb. Are there any other herbs in real life that this reminds us of?

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 16 2024, 3:25am

Post #28 of 53 (2231 views)
Shortcut
Athelas has always made me think [In reply to] Can't Post

of Costmary, a plant I grow in my own herb garden. It does smell wonderfully "wholesome", as Dame Ioreth says, and I think the allusion to Our Lady would have appealed to Tolkien.


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 17 2024, 9:33am

Post #29 of 53 (2203 views)
Shortcut
"Any sufficiently well-written magic is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device." [In reply to] Can't Post

You have me thinking of Letters #155, To Naomi Mitchison, 1954. The letter (in my Letters 1e version) starts " I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' ". It ends with something about Aragorn:


Quote
“Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Lúthien’.”

Letters 1e then adds a footnote: "Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: ‘But the Númenóreans used “spells” in making swords?"


What I like about this letter (these days) is that it reads to me as if Tolkien doesn't really know the answer. It's as if he has written things sometimes as an observer of what happens, and not always as an omniscient author. He hasn't a Theory and Rules of Magic used to control what could or couldn't happen when he wrote. Hence his difficulties answering Naomi Mitchison's questions. He now seems to be hypothesising about what he wrote, in just the way we readers often do here in the Reading Room (including writing his own objections to the previous post! Smile).

As I say, I like that. But I do think I can imagine how it is frustrating to readers who expect magic to have well-thought-out rules -- perhaps ones that are clearly explained in the text so that readers can enjoy thinking about the options characters have in a situation. Or, folks who want to do some sub-sub-creation like fan fiction (or art or games). Then, I suppose, you either do whatever it is that personally appeals, or you'd like to know what is canonically possible in some new situation you've invented.

Perhaps I'll just pat this favourite hobby-horse of mine on the head here, rather than take a long ride all around the subject. So I'll say that one of the best things I've seen written about Systems of Magic from a writer's or storyteller's point of view is a set of essays by Brandon Sanderson A very brutal and partial summary would be that well-explained and mysterious magic present different writing challenges.

This has come up a few times (for example here on 'Power Levels', here on 'Magic Rules' and here on the effects of Tolkien not explaining them.) Interesting conversations happened each time. As usual, the replies being more interesting (in sum and often individually) than my own contribution in bringing up Sanderson -- that's the Reading Room for you!

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 17 2024, 2:40pm

Post #30 of 53 (2189 views)
Shortcut
"Gas, gas, quick boys"... [In reply to] Can't Post

(Thinking about althelas being a treatment for Black Breath, as opposed to, say, Black venom....)


Quote
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

Extract from Dulce et Decorum Est, a poem by Wilfred Owen, describing the grim and gruesome reality of First World War battle (in this case being under poison gas attack). This reality is presented as contrast to idealised patriotism of propaganda of the period - the Latin phrase of the title is one that Tolkien and his school class (and all the other, similarly straight outah school young officers) would have been instantly expected to understand, and identify as Horace: “It is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country.”


Yes, it is probably simplistic to think that the black breath is a straightforward fantasy version of the poison gasses introduced as weapons in World War I. I'm not suggesting it is, directly. But whether Tolkien had gas warfare as a reference point (or whether a reader choses to do so or finds a comparison interesting) is not be the same as saying there is a simple allegory or equivalence. Or of course it would also be perfectly reasonable to think that any comparison to gas warfare is a red herring.

Still, reading an article about the morale and psychological effects of gas on troops, some similarities stand out. Particularly:


Quote

Uncontrolled anxiety during a gas attack could cause men to tear off their protective masks, or act ‘as though they had temporarily lost their reason’. Later in the war Charles Wilson, a regimental medical officer with the Royal Fusiliers, argued that mustard gas had ‘partly usurped the role of high explosive in bringing to a head a natural unfitness for war, or less commonly in undermining fitness sapped by exceptional stress in the field’.

[from the Conclusions section] ...While poets such as Wilfred Owen emphasized the trauma of soldiers dying from gas, their suffering was not significantly different from a terminal stomach wound or shrapnel damage to the head and face. This raises the question whether gas had a particular capacity to inspire terror, or whether the initial novelty and the continual refinement of toxins and delivery systems were responsible for its enduring psychological impact. During the period before the issue of effective respirators, Charles Cruttwell, an infantry officer, believed that gas undermined a basic survival mechanism. A serviceman subjected to artillery bombardment had few, if any, defensive options, and trusted to luck. However, when he was exposed to cloud gas, Cruttwell argued, it was impossible to evoke the protection of chance – ‘if the very air which he breathes is poison, his chance is gone: he is merely a destined victim for the slaughter’. By contrast, shrapnel was tangible. It could be removed from a wounded soldier’s body by a surgical procedure, but no physician could decontaminate a man’s lungs, and it was popularly believed that, once toxins had been metabolized, the respiratory system remained damaged for ever.

...In addition to the deliberate exploitation of surprise and uncertainty, fears evoked by gas owed much to broad cultural themes. Some toxic chemicals, like phosgene, could not be readily detected through the senses and triggered powerful vestigial fears of mysterious threatening forces. They touched on a deep human concern about the risk of being invaded by a potent and unseen force. Chemical weapons were unfamiliar, which created opportunity for rumour and exaggeration. Beliefs about gas often inspired strong emotions that could disrupt the rational evaluation of evidence and the formation of coping mechanisms. Fears may have been intensified because gas was a product of science and cutting-edge technology. Man-made disasters have generally been experienced as more troubling than natural ones.

Terror Weapons: The British Experience of Gas and Its Treatment in the First World War by Edgar Jones Author manuscript available here Published in final edited form as: War Hist. 2014 Jul; 21(3): 355–375.doi: 10.1177/0968344513510248


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 17 2024, 2:43pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 17 2024, 5:31pm

Post #31 of 53 (2170 views)
Shortcut
I think not breathing-- [In reply to] Can't Post

not being able to--is the ultimate terror, physically. I almost think it's as simple as that.

Oh, my goodness, what a poem. The whole scenario of that war and those conditions is simply beyond horrifying.

I can't imagine that the gas attacks were completely irrelevant in Tolkien's Black Breath idea, even if it's just sort of a generalized, vague idea in the background. This: ". . . cause men to tear off their protective masks, or act ‘as though they had temporarily lost their reason,'" is very close to what Tolkien write about the Gondor rout: flying wild and witless here and there, flinging away their weapons, crying out in fear, falling to the ground.
I never would have thought of this myself. Thanks for a very powerful insight!



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jan 17 2024, 5:31pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 17 2024, 5:42pm

Post #32 of 53 (2163 views)
Shortcut
I actually like how it turned out. [In reply to] Can't Post

It gave Tolkien some difficulties in explaining things, but I think his feel for it was largely correct. Along with the famous "Tolkien ambiguity," I think not having it explained makes it more "real" inside his system in the books, where not having things laid out with a system of rules is modus operandi.

Abilities as well as characteristics, such as a Hobbits "slow kindled courage" or the inherent nobility of Elves and Numenorians with their respective abilities, seem to be a natural part of the "characters' characters" rather than a function of something external (like Rules of Magic" or 'Lessons in How to be a Good Numenorian" for their schoolchildren.) Smply the way he writes his characters does lend itself--at least to me--to the idea and especially the feeling to the reader of "an inherent power."



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jan 17 2024, 5:42pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


Jan 17 2024, 10:22pm

Post #33 of 53 (2165 views)
Shortcut
Drawing us in [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Abilities as well as characteristics, such as a Hobbits "slow kindled courage" or the inherent nobility of Elves and Numenorians with their respective abilities, seem to be a natural part of the "characters' characters" rather than a function of something external


I think giving inherent power to people sparks readers' imagination (or at least mine) to wonder what inherent power might be slumbering inside us, waiting for a challenge to bring it forth. It's a pretty sure bet that I'll never wind up in a Barrow-Down, but I'd like to think that if I did, and I was awake while my friends were about to be killed, that some small seed of courage would inspire me to go on the offense rather than run away.

And I think it makes Middle-earth more magical as a place to think that there are powers inherent in various people. I've always liked Gildor's comment to Frodo that there's power of a different kind in the Shire, and it wasn't a magical power to drive off the ruffians, but a strong, buried sense of community and courage that united them to drive off the ruffians. Moria was never overtly magical besides the Hollin-gate, but it had a supernatural feel to it, more than just a grandiose city of the Dwarves. And then places like the Argonath, Amon Hen, etc: magic keeps popping up in places besides Gandalf's staff.

As you point out, Tolkien may have had difficulty explaining things, but his use of magic works within key scenes regardless of The Rules of Magic. There's no clear explanation of the passage on Merry's sword, but it reeks of mortal wizards and learned spells which are quite specific, not "inherent power," and I don't care, I just love it so much:

Quote
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.



Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Jan 17 2024, 10:33pm

Post #34 of 53 (2159 views)
Shortcut
Necromancy [In reply to] Can't Post

Now for some very late replies...


Quote
1. What is it about the Nazgul that they are able to have such a pernicious effect on human beings without even making physical contact? It can’t just be the overwhelming fear they engender, because once away from them that should have no lasting physical effects—other than PTSD or something like that. I suppose I’m saying “what is the black breath”?


I'm reminded of how in some depictions powerful vampires and similar anti-life beings can make flowers wilt just by touching them. I think the Black Breath is caused by the profound unnaturalness of the Nazgûl that spreads a harmful deathly aura just by existing in a place. Other beings too touched by this can then become undead themselves, which would be Tolkien's version of how vampirism is transmissible.

(As for Orcs such as Gorbag, I think them being a variety of corporeal lesser undead halfway between life and death is not out of the question and would explain details such as black blood.)


Quote
Aragorn enters the houses of healing “cloaked in grey”; and at least earlier when meeting Imrahil, he was likely hooded from what seems to be implied in that section. But although he is hiding his identity in some respects and underplaying it in others, it’s as the king that he attempts his healing mission, even stating that his healing abilities were “given to him,” possibly partly as a member of the “line” of which Elrond was the “eldest” member, but as the chapter goes on, it also seems to be tied inextricably to his kingship.

1. Or may be at this point in the history, it’s the same thing?


I think Aragorn's abilities are most likely tied to his special brooch. In Book I Aragorn was unable to do much to help Frodo, but in book V Aragorn appears to be a greater healer than Elrond ever was, even though Aragorn has just killed a whole lot of enemies, which in Tolkien's metaphysics should be incompatible with a healer's powers. Clearly this change in Aragorn is something new, but Aragorn also wasn't officially a king in this chapter either. The brooch, known to be magical, neatly explains everything.


Quote
2. Aragorn says that he is “Envinyatar, the renewer.” Is it possible that the people Aragorn heals are also being renewed in some way?


I think they are being called back to life with magic rather than healed in the normal sense of the word. The side effects of this are unknown.


Quote
1. Again we have the Nazgul-effect, operating on Faramir over a long period of time so that even a man of “staunch will” eventually succumbs. What does it say about Faramir that he was able to resist so long under such harrowing conditions?


I actually disagree with Aragorn here. I think the Black Breath affecting Faramir is recent and developed quickly because he got a big dose of the metaphysical poison, likely from a Morgul arrow, and wasn't as innately resistant as Frodo.

I think the fever is likely a symptom of the final stage of Black Breath that precedes turning into a wraith. The people of Gondor would know, since they lacked the lore to stop the progression of the disease and Faramir wasn't the first case they'd had. This would have been why Denethor reacted so strongly to the fever and decided that he had to give Faramir a quick funeral by fire.


Quote
2. How did Aragorn come to know of Denethor’s “mood”?


I think Aragorn and Denethor have personal enmity from way back, from the time Aragorn called himself Thorongil.


Quote
1. Where was Faramir, do you think?


"In the King's hand lying", the King here not meaning Aragorn.


Quote
1. Where would Faramir have obtained this knowledge; and why love? What could have transpired in that “dark vale” to bring about what almost seems like a deep and established friendship? Perhaps partly the fact that Aragorn had come to his rescue, pursuing him, literally, into the valley of the shadow of death?


When a necromancer in fiction calls someone from the dead, it is common for the raised person to be under the necromancer's control.

(This could also be the principle that allows for Sauron to control his Orcs. The well-known part about Orcs reproducing in the manner of the children of Ilúvatar could be a reference to the individual Orcs' origins as children of Ilúvatar, because the Orcs don't actually reproduce as such and instead convert others].)


Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 18 2024, 2:02am

Post #35 of 53 (2154 views)
Shortcut
A poem that's stayed with me [In reply to] Can't Post

ever since we studied it many long years ago in high school. I don't think it at all strains credibility to suggest that the horror of poisoned air might have been among the factors that informed Tolkien's portrayal of the Black Breath


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 18 2024, 2:08am

Post #36 of 53 (2153 views)
Shortcut
Good catch! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I can't imagine that the gas attacks were completely irrelevant in Tolkien's Black Breath idea, even if it's just sort of a generalized, vague idea in the background. This: ". . . cause men to tear off their protective masks, or act ‘as though they had temporarily lost their reason,'" is very close to what Tolkien write about the Gondor rout: flying wild and witless here and there, flinging away their weapons, crying out in fear, falling to the ground.


Yes, those parallels are striking! Very well spotted, Ethel.


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 18 2024, 3:19am

Post #37 of 53 (2152 views)
Shortcut
it was really NoWiz's catch, but [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, it seems very similar. I'm sure Tolkien had seen something very much like that more than once, and I wonder if his reasons for including something similar was somewhat complex: a similar situation with similar results, but also perhaps something he felt should be portrayed to illustrate or even honor the men who had gone through that in real life. And, finally, maybe to process his own experience, or at least to give it "voice" in a way.

I'm guessing he would tend to describe it more in terms of the first thing, but the others might have been in the background.



noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 19 2024, 11:14am

Post #38 of 53 (2117 views)
Shortcut
inherent powers [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree! and it makes me think about 'innate power'. First, back to that Letter 155 quote:


Quote
“Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Lúthien’.”

Letter #155
Letters 1e then adds a footnote: "Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: ‘But the Númenóreans used “spells” in making swords?"


I'm thinking that this touches on a way that Tolkien's sub-creation is very different from the real world. The different 'Races' in the Felowship say, seem to have a lot of similarities in mind and body. So it is easy to imagine them as being like different types of real-world humans. But I think that in some ways this isn't helpful and there is no exact equivalent in the real world to some of the differences.

Life expectancy is a clear example. Just from knowing that a character is an elf, Man or hobbit, you'd predict a very different life expectancy for them. Nobody can teach Men to be potentially immortal like elves are, and attempts to achieve that with spells or Sauron-worship didn't work (and had other catastrophic results).

Maybe, similarly, any elf can run lightly on snow but nobody else can. And maybe only Aragorn individually (or only some group of his relatives) can do what Aragorn does with the Athelas here. Of course anyone tryng to make a Venn diagram of who can uniquely do what will quickly find they have too little information to be sure the chart is right!

And I think that this is because that kind of 'inherent power' rarely matters to the story. In the end The Fellowship escapes from the snow as much because of the 'inherent power' of two members being big and strong as because of wizardly magic or elf light-footedness. And, as Boromir says, escape would have been easier had the party brought shovels.
Exotic, magic-like 'inherent powers' appear usually when it is the only option left because opponents are using magic. Examples: rescues by Tom Bombadill, Gandalf magically sealing the door against the Beater of the Drums; Aragorn doing his stuff to counter the magically-induced illnesses from Black Breath. Or use of 'inherent powers' does little to further the plot, but adds colour and interest.

What really drives LOTR or TH forward of course is not fantastical powers like those of Superheroes: it's qualities present in the real world, like loyalty, courage, determination and good moral compasses. And that enables Tolkien to have the hard work done by brave but 'normal' people.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 19 2024, 11:24am)


Felagund
Mithlond


Jan 19 2024, 8:34pm

Post #39 of 53 (2098 views)
Shortcut
the power of Glaurung [In reply to] Can't Post

Love this comparative analysis noWiz, and Ethel D’s follow-up. And grateful for the prompt to go back and read some Wilfred Owen.

I was having a think about the Black Breath and the effects we’ve been discussing, and certain instances in The Silmarillion and other texts concerning the First Age. I don’t reckon there’s necessarily a direct and enlightening comparison to be had but there’s something there that did catch my attention, in terms of the way in which malicious will is used to drive out or suppress someone’s sensibility and grip on reality. I’m primarily thinking of the power Glaurung wields through his gaze. For example, the first three passages from ‘Of Túrin Turambar’ (The Sil) and the fourth from the ‘Narn i Hîn Húrin’ (Unfinished Tales):


Quote
And Túrin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.



Quote
Then suddenly Glaurung withdrew his glance, and waited; and Túrin stirred slowly, as one waking from a hideous dream.



Quote
Her [Nienor’s] will strove with him for a while, but he [Glaurung] put forth his power, and having learned who she was he constrained her to gaze into his eyes, and he laid a spell of utter darkness and forgetfulness upon her…



Quote
Then he drew her eyes unto his, and her will swooned. And it seemed to her that the sun sickened and all became dim about her; and slowly a darkness drew down on her and in that darkness there was emptiness; she knew nothing, and heard nothing, and remembered nothing.


As per my intro remarks, this isn’t the same as Black Breath. It does feel, however, in the same kind of league. The above confrontations strike me as the deployment of transgressive power to sunder, violate or otherwise warp, even if temporarily, the relationship between fëa and hröa. Both Túrin and Nienor are rendered ‘out of body’ and senseless, with a contrast between the reality of what the hröa and fëa, in their normal and natural concert, has experienced previously and the imposition of a dark alternate reality on the fëa. In both instances, Glaurung effectively ignores the physical bodies of his prey (eg. “but Glaurung withheld his blast…”, when dealing with Túrin) and goes for the spiritual jugular, attacking the hapless Children of Húrin at a psychic level. This is what reminded me of some of the symptoms described in the context of the Black Breath – the insidious attack on the spirit of its victims.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 19 2024, 10:37pm

Post #40 of 53 (2084 views)
Shortcut
"And that enables Tolkien to have the hard work done by brave but 'normal' people." [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's pivotal, really from the Hobbit right on through.

But! Although it doesn't exactly drive the plot, the "inherent" magic/unusual abilities being mostly presented as internal by nature gives an entirely different "feel" to the characters, and I think to the story itself.

It keeps us focused on the characters, rather than on magical pyrotechnics (Gandalf's Hobbit fireworks notwithstanding), and helps us to form a sense of who they (the characters) are and how they affect others. In Aragorn (and in many other characters), it enhances his nobility because we have a sense of this great, but almost underused power, held back by humility or at least a lack of hubris, and always in the service of others. Elrond could be another example, although he has, I think, somewhat less humility in my opinion. But he also doesn't wave his abilities around to say "look at me!" If Aragorn had approached his healing tasks with the focus on winning hearts and minds for the kingship, in Tolkien's world he would have obtained neither the healings or the kingship.

Faramir is an even clearer example: His "mind reading" abilities don't seem to have ever been aimed toward his own personal benefit, but rather towards safety for his men and the protection and furtherance of his mission (the Frodo and Sam encounter for example), or in the service of empathy for others--in other words on their behalf.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jan 19 2024, 10:38pm)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Jan 19 2024, 11:13pm

Post #41 of 53 (2078 views)
Shortcut
The Change in Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe, similarly, any elf can run lightly on snow but nobody else can. And maybe only Aragorn individually (or only some group of his relatives) can do what Aragorn does with the Athelas here. Of course anyone tryng to make a Venn diagram of who can uniquely do what will quickly find they have too little information to be sure the chart is right!


An important point about Aragorn is that he, using freshly-picked athelas, was unable to do much to help Frodo when he was wounded on Weathertop. This would mean that these dramatic healing powers are not something inherent to Aragorn or his lineage.

As an aside, I like to think that the Elves walking on snow is something that they learn to do but don't consider magic. Tolkien's world makes a lot of sense when viewed through the lens of qi cultivation.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath

Jan 19 2024, 11:36pm

Post #42 of 53 (2064 views)
Shortcut
What an excellent observation! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Jan 20 2024, 3:23am

Post #43 of 53 (2059 views)
Shortcut
possibly a more pedestrian take [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What is the black breath? To me it seems more explicitly developed in Harry Potter where the dementors suck the life out of people, or at a minimum drain their happiness. Given how much JK Rowling modeled her world on Tolkien's, it's no stretch to make the comparison with the Nazgul. And why do the Nazgul do this? I think that just as Gollum loves and hates the Ring, the Nazgul love and hate their deathless state and their Dark Lord, and that makes them envy the living with so much hatred that like the dementors, they suck out any hope and joy that the living might feel, even though they can't benefit from that hope themselves. It's more like spite taken to extreme: "if we can't have it, neither can you." And in Middle-earth, you can't live without hope. In re-reading this chapter, I was relearned that the Black Breath isn't just a bad case of melancholy but a fatal condition:

Quote
...they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died.



I have found myself increasingly of a theory, lately. We know the most about the One Ring, and less and less successively about the Three, the Seven, and the Nine. In fact we know basically nothing about the Nine except that they were more or less the only ones to really complete the job Sauron intended them for, harvesting a crew of leaders from the other side and turning them into powerful henchmen for himself. But in the human lifetimes of the humans to whom they were given, what did they do? What was their power?

I've come to imagine that to Sauron, the Númenóreans were chiefly defined as a military problem: a warrior race. I think the power conferred by the Nine may well have been martial power, powers for use on the battlefield.

Maybe one of those was a glamour of fear striking everyone around.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Jan 20 2024, 9:53am

Post #44 of 53 (2045 views)
Shortcut
The Power of the Nine [In reply to] Can't Post

We know the Three have elemental affinities over the broad domains of Fire, Water, and Air. It would make sense for the less powerful Seven and the Nine also to have such affinities, but not as broad. The Witch-king's ring likely was the Ring of Frost given his documented frost-related powers in the Appendices.

Perhaps even the Black Breath was something caused by the Ring of Frost, but in that case the Witch-king should have been the only one to have that effect, which doesn't seem to have been the case. I think it's more likely that the Black Breath is simply the result of too much exposure to the unnatural Nazgûl aura caused to their undead state, an inherent affront to nature, and could also be caused intentionally with special Morgul weapons that contain a condensed Nazgûl effect. You may have noticed that the characters notice that something is off even when the Nazgûl are trying to be stealthy posing as simple riders in black and wouldn't be intentionally snacking on anyone. Also in other times the fearful aura reaches to a great distance and affects even characters that the Nazgûl don't know are there.

Harry Potter wasn't among Tolkien's influences. Rather, I think the Nazgûl were a type of more normal vampire and consumed blood from living creatures, but most of the characters in the book didn't know anything about that. Aragorn was the exception because he had journeyed in lands under Sauron and would have had the opportunity learn about how undead beings work.


Quote
"They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it."



Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 20 2024, 4:06pm

Post #45 of 53 (2029 views)
Shortcut
The lowest mood-- [In reply to] Can't Post

I had to think about this, because it seems like Eowyn is more fully in despair. But in turning it over in my mind, it seems to me that utter despair of the kind she is experiencing can harden the will to the point where the person can attempt almost anything, since they've given up on self-preservation, but have the personality where they grind through to the end, possibly hoping to go out with a bang.
Faramir wasn't utterly despairing, knowing about Frodo's quest, possibly wondering if Gandalf could pull something out of his hat, and hoping for Rohan--except in regard to any hope that his father would ever truly value him as his son--but the presence of hope in the middle of discouragement can almost have a weakening effect. You're not really sure if your efforts will succeed or which efforts are best to pursue. He didn't have the relentless tunnel-vision focus of someone like Eowyn who only wants to honorably die in battle. I think that his scenario would actually weaken Faramir and strengthen (although it was a brittle strenght) Eowyn.
In other words, I agree. :)



elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 20 2024, 10:26pm

Post #46 of 53 (2013 views)
Shortcut
I was just rereading CHildren of Hurin and love these comparisons! [In reply to] Can't Post

I do believe the Black Breath warps what the victim sees. We can see examples in LotR of how Frodo's vision was getting dimmer and he had dark nightmares. Similiarily, Eowyn, Faramir and Merry had the same ailments.
Comparing to Nienor and Turin is very smart because what Glaurung did to them is very simliar.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 20 2024, 10:34pm

Post #47 of 53 (2014 views)
Shortcut
That's the appeal of the story and why we love it so much. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
What really drives LOTR or TH forward of course is not fantastical powers like those of Superheroes: it's qualities present in the real world, like loyalty, courage, determination and good moral compasses. And that enables Tolkien to have the hard work done by brave but 'normal' people.


"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 20 2024, 10:35pm

Post #48 of 53 (2011 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for pointing out a real life example! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Nargothrond


Jan 20 2024, 10:44pm

Post #49 of 53 (2012 views)
Shortcut
Reply about Faramir [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
the presence of hope in the middle of discouragement can almost have a weakening effect. You're not really sure if your efforts will succeed or which efforts are best to pursue. He didn't have the relentless tunnel-vision focus of someone like Eowyn who only wants to honorably die in battle.

Can you elaborate on "hope in the middle of discouragement"?

To me, i read Faramir and Eowyn going into the last battle to not be in high hopes actually and perhaps looking at the end if the end was to come. Textually, in Siege of Gondor, we do not have Tolkien going into Faramir's head and writing what he wrote, but it wasn't hopeful to retake the Fords and Faramir said "today we may make the Enemy pay ten times our loss at the passage yet rue the exchange. The retreat of those that we put out far afield will be perilous if he wins across in force."
ANd Gondor was overrun and outnumbered and truly the presence of the Nazgul did not help them rather it was a rout. Given this, Faramir must have felt more helpless and ht did not help that he was not in the best mood going into this undertaking.
So when he fell from the arrow and Black Breath, it took all of Aragorn's strength to pull him back. He was falling fast and death could've taken him first. So i do think that Faramir could've had been in the most negative mindset versus EOwyn and Merry.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Jan 21 2024, 2:12am

Post #50 of 53 (1999 views)
Shortcut
Well, as I was speculating: [In reply to] Can't Post

"knowing about Frodo's quest, possibly wondering if Gandalf could pull something out of his hat, and hoping for Rohan." But that is mere speculation. It's simply that his attitude wasn't hardened despair, like Eowyn's. He hadn't given up entirely--but in that state of near despair, he may have been even more vulnerable than Eowyn. And unlike the other two, he faced stresses and obligations on many fronts, with the necessity of making life-and-death decisions with many lives and Gondor itself at risk.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.