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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 6 2023, 12:51am
Post #26 of 86
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Yes, "empathetic" is the word i'm looking for to describe Frodo and Faramir
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and also as a ring-bearer I think gives him an intuitive power he wouldn't have possessed as an "ordinary" Hobbit. Frodo was always special and that is why he was chosen as the Ring-bearer and if he did not find the way, no one will. He always wanted to do and go beyond what the Shire-folk were willing to do at those times and found a higher purpose. Unforutunately he could not return to the Shire as before.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 6 2023, 2:42am
Post #27 of 86
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How did he become that man that resisted?
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"But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee" How did Faramir become such a man? I mean i detested PJ for changing it movie verse but is there a grain of truth that he could've fallen for the Ring. Faramir also wanted his father's approval, under great pressure to defend Gondor's borders. How he not the man to resist? I know he was less prideful than Boromir, and we liken him to Aragorn also not falling so are these the reasons that he resisted that easily? Is this Tolkien imagining the opposite of Boromir, more like Aragorn in the resistance. We do not hear about the Ring tempting Aragorn at all which is hardly realistic in my opinion. And i think PJ did have a good line that said men are weak. They were the weakest therefore changing to the Ring-wraiths the most, desiring power . It's not way too AU to think that Faramir could've succumbed but in the book "he is not such man". I wonder how he became that way. Is it because he is innately more good than both his father and brother? Regarding how the Ring tempts- i do think it shows you your best self and what you desire most. Example being what Samwise saw in Mordor. But his simple hobbit sense knows that the image is not real. Now are men less prone to temptation?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 6 2023, 12:30pm
Post #28 of 86
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Why did it work so hard to tempt Boromir? It didn't
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I'd like to comment on Something others are also talking about already (e.g. oliphaunt and elentari): But I want to take this onwards an a discussion of Faramir and the Ring. One of the first things Faramir tells us directly about himself is that he is a soldier only of necessity. This is nothing to do with how good he is at it. I think this is of more significance than just to make Faramir a champion of (and infodumper of) Gondor's history and culture. In absolute contrast, the first thing we hear Boromir do is to interrupt Elrond to give a military assessment of Gondor: that it is the power containing Sauron for now, but has recently encountered troubling new weaponry (as well as weird prophetic dreams). Boromir's immediate assessment of the Ring and of Aragorn and his sword are also in military terms. These look to him immediately like military solutions to his military problems. It's how he thinks. He's told, no you can't use the Ring that way but by the time he's a maniac monologuing delusionally to Frodo he has a reason why he has been lied to about this. That appears to be one safety catch removed: the other is that Aragorn may prioritise helping Frodo over Gondor. Why *must* we think that the Ring worked hard on Boromir, rather than finding him easy meat? I don't think we must, but I do see how people can. For me this is bound up with what the New Line movie script writers did with Faramir (and Boromir). I think that in turn is caused by taking one particular view of how the Ring works. The movies have of course been massively influential in their own right. Many people now have seen the movies before they read the books. I didn't, but I am aware that bits of the movies have been incorporated into my view of the books. And possibly I'm not fully aware of where this has happened. Also the movies are a thoughtful adaptation. So the script and other decisions sometimes show one particular reasonable interpretation of Tolkien (not only and always the changes needed in a blockbuster film, needing to attract a particular audience and made at a particular time, though there is that too). I'll now see if I can explain why I prefer another explanation, especially because of its relevance to Faramir. Let's go back to Shippey's idea that there are two convincing ways you can imagine the Ring works: he calls these 'evil radiator' and 'psychic amplifier'. One can find support in the text for both, he rightly says. I'm imagining the 'evil radiator' as being a psychic or spiritual equivalent to the Ring loudly blasting "Radio 1RingFM" at people. If you're near enough you are bombarded with these impressions and suggestions from the Ring. Everyone can "hear" it (I'm not literally suggesting it works audibly, of course) and it is in effect a kind of moral or psychic or spiritual torture. Eventually what the Ring wants starts to be what you want, just as Winston Smith (the hero of Orwell's Big Brother) can be tortured into loving Big Brother, or (influenced by this, I feel sure) Captain Picard in Star Trek is released just in time before he is tortured not only into *agreeing to say* that there are five lights when there are really four, but *believing he can see* five lights. If the Ring tortures everyone in range like this, it would seem natural to see resistance to it as a demonstration of power or virtue. Characters who resist are presumably superior in terms of courage, grit, reslilience, purity etc. Or perhaps in Middle-earth people can be superior Racially - the "Men are weak" idea from the New Line movie, or Frodo being "peculiarly resistant to its evil" (or whatever the exact movie-Elrond quote is). (One can of course assume that the Ring singles victims out for its particular attack, but this requires positing a lot of sophistication on the part of the Ring.) But this evil radiator assumption does cause problems with Boromir and Faramir. We can see this clearly in the route the movie went down. The problems I think New Line landed themselves with (along with anyone who is thinking about the Ring predominantly as an evil radiator) are:
- Boromir is heroic (brave, stoic, high-caste etc - and movie Boromir was simplified to be almost all this) He should resist the Ring a long time. It is not clear how he is less virtuous than the rest of the Fellowship
- We're not given enough preparation to see why Faramir is braver, stoicer, high-caster etc. enough to do easily what Boromir doesn't.
(There are some other problems, but the evil radiator can be readily fitted with epicycles to fix them. I've already said I think the Men Are Weak thing is a bodge to explain why we don't get, say, Gimli seizing the Ring to avenge Balin and recapture Moria; or any of the others in the Fellowship doing their own equivalent.) The New Line movies simplified Tolkien I think. In several ways but what I mean here is that they made the story more one of conventional masculine heroism in the Hollywood tradition. Tolkien does that, but he keeps subverting it. In that way he is not only unlike a lot of Hollywood entertainment, but also like a lot of fantasy literature. What is the alternative then? What if it isn't a matter of the ability to resist by struggle? The "Radio 1RingFM" analogy continues to help. What if you are not tuned to that station? Perhaps then you hear the Ring sometimes dimly, or not at all. This is an aspect of the "psychic amplifier" side of things. The struggle may not be with an external evil force which you can heroically resist but not forever. The struggle (or the first struggle) is exactly what Faramir says it is extremely clearly, which is not to get into a struggle. According to the "evil radiator" theory (taken alone) this makes no sense. On that theory you're like a retail worker subjected to Christmas music for the whole of December (if your employer is restrained). You can work on your reaction to this stimulus, but you can't control whether it is there. What I'm saying is that to sucumb to the Ring you've got to want to, at least a little bit. And there are two parts to that. You have to want something, and Annie Lennox is right "Everybody's looking for something". But you also have to start thinking about the Ring as a way to get it. You have to want the Ring (and "tune into 1RingFM" as it were.) And that, I think also means that everyone must finally let the Ring in, I think it is like the club that I once read Leo Tolstoy and his brother made as children. To join you had to stand in a corner for an hour and not think of a white bear. I'll bet any members were cheats. I suspect that most of us seldom think about white bears, but thinking that you mustn't think about one is a form of thinking about one. So the game is a hard one, and the harder you try the more you fail. Go and do something else, and it is easy again. So we see the wise characters send the Ring away physically: Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Faramir. Of course Faramir is luckier than his brother in this. Who knows what would have happend had Faramir decided to escort Frodo to Mordor.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 6 2023, 12:36pm)
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Junesong
Nargothrond

Oct 6 2023, 5:18pm
Post #29 of 86
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Great analysis. I love the way you write too - if you want to publish a coffee table book with deep dives of these Middle Earth characters you have a customer ready and waiting to buy it.
"So which story do you prefer?" "The one with the tiger. That's the better story." "Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 6 2023, 6:46pm
Post #30 of 86
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Oct 6 2023, 10:42pm
Post #31 of 86
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Faramir has a bit of a contradiction to his character: what he does vs. what he says. Faramir's words are full of high idealism. He talks about international friendship and completely ignores what practical mechanism would keep his desired world order from collapsing into war. Faramir's actions are practical, even ruthless at times. He arranges a classic ambush and kills all the enemy soldiers like he's used to that kind of thing (and he clearly is). The line in the movie about him assigning humanity to his enemies actually belongs to Sam's thoughts in the book. (Also, Darkstone quoted in an earlier post had some really good points about Faramir's interrogation techniques. Faramir is not as nice as many people think.) Boromir shows through his actions (such as blowing the horn on departure from Rivendell and dying to defend Merry and Pippin) that in warfare he is much more idealistic than his brother and also much less "modern". Yet in politics Boromir shows that he has an interest in practical things such as making alliances - but those practical things have been around for a long time. Between the two brothers, Boromir represents the past with its chivalry and empire-building, Faramir the modernity with guerrilla warfare and radical political theories. It is an open question how much Faramir himself believes in what he says about political theory and how willing he would be to try it out in practice. Perhaps as a ruling steward he would have gotten discouraged and changed nothing. Boromir might have tried sending envoys to places like Umbar and Dunland and having negotiations.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Oct 7 2023, 1:13am
Post #32 of 86
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evil psychic radiator amplifier
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This is very, very good, and fits what I think is a very character-driven (meaning the characters of the characters, if you know what I mean) set of responses to the ring, throughout the books. But there does seem to be something about long term exposure to the ring that tends to create the desire to at least partially succumb.I actually think it's "both/and." But I'm really taken with your idea about those who would want the ring under certain conditions, and those who know right away that it's not worth it, and immediately "flee temptation." That's why it seems to be about the central character of the person, not just whether he or she is tough or strong or noble enough to continue to resist. And I really like this: The New Line movies simplified Tolkien I think. In several ways but what I mean here is that they made the story more one of conventional masculine heroism in the Hollywood tradition. Tolkien does that, but he keeps subverting it. In that way he is not only unlike a lot of Hollywood entertainment, but also like a lot of fantasy literature.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Oct 7 2023, 1:17am
Post #33 of 86
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Yes, I've known a few myself. Not many, but they do exist.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 7 2023, 12:25pm
Post #34 of 86
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Yes, I think 'both' works best: and a (non-evil) amplification
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Yes, I think 'both' [evil radiator and psychic amplifier] works best.
The New Line movies simplified Tolkien I think. In several ways but what I mean here is that they made the story more one of conventional masculine heroism in the Hollywood tradition. Tolkien does that, but he keeps subverting it. In that way he is not only unlike a lot of Hollywood entertainment, but also like a lot of fantasy literature. [nowizardme, earlier]
I realised -- after the edit window was shut of course -- that I'd missed an 'un' from one point there*. But in any case maybe I should be clearer if people might find this interesting. There is a lot of 'conventional masculine heroism' in the book. An all-male expedition sets off on a long and exceptionally dangerous journey with the aim of saving the world they love. There is plenty of military stuff. The party calls upon virtues that are often troped as masculine (though they are certinly not exclusively masculine, in my experience): physical courage, strength (of various kinds), fortitude, good judgement or hard situations and comradeship. So you can read the book (or go and see a movie adaptation) for those things and have a good time. You can read a great many other stories, and enjoy a lot of other media, for similar things. Tolkien offers that and more. I suppose that all I'm meaning really is that you would be surprised by Faramir if your expectations are coloured by the trope of the Hollywood Action Hero. And of course TV Tropes is on hand to explain that:
A subtrope of the Action Hero, a Hollywood Action Hero is The Hero of a Summer Blockbuster Action-Adventure Movie. He (and it's almost always a he) is usually defined by a few specific traits that separate him from other types of heroes: - Personality: Usually a Hollywood Action Hero is either stoic and glib or wisecracking and jolly.
- Intellect: Usually Book Dumb but deadly practical with weapons and vehicles of all types.
- Morality: A few are Anti Heroes but most are plain old heroes who are morally upright. That doesn't stop them from killing mooks, but causes them to deliberate a bit before killing villains.
- Aesthetics: Usually rugged and unshaven, often muscular, and usually scarred.
- Martial Ability: They'll of course be Made of Iron or just plain made of hit points, soaking up tons of damage without stopping. They'll rarely fight with anything more complex than Good Old Fisticuffs and a trusty BFG [I assume this means Big F
ing Gun, not Big Friendly Giant -- interesting transtlantic difference ] or Hand Cannon. Some may use a big blade if it's personal. ... Hollywood Action Heroes rarely have superpowers, perhaps because they tend to fit a male viewer's "fantasy" of their ideal self, a strong warrior Übermensch type who kills bad guys, does good, and gets the girl. TV Tropes: Hollywood Action Hero entry I think we can also contrast what Tolkien characters are like (i.e. often thoughtful, restrained, don't hit on the green-skinned alien babe with whom they are supposed to be pursuing only diplomatic relations just because they KHAAAAAN!) with some parts of the parent Action Hero trope:
Any problem can be solved by the application of a fist to the right guy's face. This is the Action Hero's primary operating procedure. An Action Hero is a form of protagonist who primarily uses their fighting skills to achieve their goals in a story. ...the Action Hero's storylines are limited to the sort of thing where punching someone in the face actually would solve the problem, unless they're explicitly being taught An Aesop about how "you can't solve all your issues with violence", or they're being set up to fail. Relatedly, the climax to an Action Hero's story almost always culminates in a Final Battle of some sort. While the Action Hero often follows the trope Dumb Is Good, resulting in an Idiot Hero, that need not always be the case. TV Tropes: Action Hero ~~~ * Where I missed the 'un' in my original phrasing- I had meant to type 'but also UNlike a lot of fantasy literature.' There is a fair bit of "The War of Powers" (review by Dave Langford in White Dwarf: "People who like routine sword-and-sorcery, with a killing or orgasm (sometimes both) every few pages, will no doubt love this book. These two books. These six books..." ) But of course the genre is not all like that and is so very varied that my statement is arguably true as first written.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 8 2023, 12:38am
Post #35 of 86
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This an excellent post about the Ring and its effects.
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If the Ring tortures everyone in range like this, it would seem natural to see resistance to it as a demonstration of power or virtue. Characters who resist are presumably superior in terms of courage, grit, reslilience, purity etc. Or perhaps in Middle-earth people can be superior Racially - the "Men are weak" idea from the New Line movie, or Frodo being "peculiarly resistant to its evil" (or whatever the exact movie-Elrond quote is). Esp. like the point about if characters who resist are presumably superior. I do think Tolkien kind of implied that those that resisted were better i.e Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, Faramir and those that didn't (Boromir) suffered. Frodo was resistant to its evil but he couldn't destroy the Ring but i do not think anyone could at the end at the center of Sauron's power. I think the Ring can be both amplier and radiator which are interesting points Shippey had- (now i have to read that book). :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 8 2023, 12:44am
Post #36 of 86
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Aren't his tactics necessary in the realm of the forest which he is?
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Faramir's actions are practical, even ruthless at times. He arranges a classic ambush and kills all the enemy soldiers like he's used to that kind of thing (and he clearly is). The line in the movie about him assigning humanity to his enemies actually belongs to Sam's thoughts in the book. (Also, Darkstone quoted in an earlier post had some really good points about Faramir's interrogation techniques. Faramir is not as nice as many people think.) Boromir was used to sword to sword combat more because of where he was defending. As we see when they went to defend Osgiliath and the Causeway Forts at the end, Faramir also did hand to hand combat and not only his guerilla tactics. I think that he knew to fight both ways out of necessity not out of idealism. We do not really see by text Faramir's "not so nice ways"- they're in war so i think questioning the enemy (which he does not know waht to think of the hobbits or Gollum) was necessary so it's out of defense for Gondor. In conjecture of how he rules with Aragorn as future steward, i think in some ways he would be like Denethor but he would also have his own style.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 8 2023, 12:52am
Post #37 of 86
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I think it's not a time to be "nice"
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Faramir is not the nice person everyone thinks him to be. Right not it is a tension filled time for GOndor where enemies have surrounded from all over and then these strange hobbits show up in Ithilien... who knows if they are not spies? I think Faramir was smart for interrogating as he does. There is no time to be nice and i think he is actual wise with most of his dealings with the hobbits. :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Oct 8 2023, 1:34am
Post #38 of 86
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Think of Boromir . . . and Denethor: would they have treated Frodo and Sam as Faramir did?
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"How would they have behaved the same/differently? **Think of how Faramir-Frodo here and Denethor-Pippin in Minas Tirith: why are the encounters so different in tone and establishment of trust? " The Hobbits should have thanked their lucky Star of Eärendil that it was Faramir, not either of the other two. With Boromir, I think we can probably guess pretty closely. He wouldn't have been likely to succumb to the ring in just that short amount of time and so would have been, I think, rational and self-controlled. But I do think he would have brought his father "a mighty gift"; or if it took just a bit too long to get there with it, would have succumbed and seized it for himself. Denethor would have brooked no resistance, although with Gandalf to deal with it would have been, ahem, quite a situation. He needed the ring as he made clear to Gandalf. I think he may have understood the nature of the ring and of Sauron himself better than many, but he seemed to have no doubt he could have mastered the ring and avoided, somehow, being deceived or controlled by it. As far as those comparisons: Faramir was after the truth, not after a narrow agenda of his own. Instead of making snap judgements which might have been both unjust and strategically dangerous, he used skilled interrogation as well as setting up situations where he could observe the hobbits in both very tense and more relaxed situations--although I believe he was showing true hospitality at the same time--in order to observe and hopefully determine Sam and Frodo's true characters, as well as their mission if possible. As I said in another reply, I think he made use of his own true nature to do all this, and I think he was operating genuinely as well as strategically. Being just, empathetic and not thirsty for power or for blood, he could more easily use those characteristics to find out where everyone stood. The subtlety and finesse is something to see. It makes Denethor's approach, brilliant and subtle as he is, look almost like sledgehammer by contrast. And I think the reason for that is because Denethor was deeply suspicious toward Gandalf and anything he had his hand in, and Denethor was therefore deeply suspicious and quite sarcastic at his first meeting with Gandalf and Pippin. Faramir, by contrast, had not yet made up his mind, and because of that was able to do some delicate, exploratory surgery, and come out with the right answer. After that, his very real character: compassionate (treating Sam and Frodo with great kindness and consideration in his sendoff): just (for instance, honoring Frodo's commitment to Gollum, which didn't necessarily make the best strategic sense, therefore putting justice before expediency when he was able to do so--not always possible in a war for Faramir or anyone in charge); and not thirsting for power which if he had, like NoWiz said, would make him more likely to " . . . want to, at least a little bit." Instead he let the ring go. (I happen to agree with Elentari in her post below, that "we do not really see by text Faramir's "not so nice ways"- they're in war so i think questioning the enemy (which he does not know what to think of the hobbits or Gollum) was necessary so it's out of defense for Gondor.")
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Oct 8 2023, 1:48am)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 8 2023, 11:23am
Post #39 of 86
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Should I worry that you've quoted my "If" paragraph and gone on to agree with it, but not covered my "But" paragraph in which I (mostly) refute the "If"? (That is, I'm not sure whether you have grasped my argument exactly, or have got it totally backwards. My concern is to do with the connotations of 'superior'. ) Quoted alone, this paragraph seems to say that resistance to the Ring is a test in which only the toughest will survive. They may then be considered 'superior'. That's what I then went on to refute. It is the opposite to what I said or meant overall and very clearly to me not what the story means. Nobody is tough enough to be 'superior' to the Ring in this conventional, machismo way. I think that's absolutely clear*. Those who are foolish or hubristic or desperate enough to think it would be a good idea (Saruman, Denethor, Boromir) come to bad ends. It is much wiser to do the thing that does not look conventionally heroic at all - flee. And this is unusual in fiction - we are so used to entertainments in which the hero is the hero because he (usually) does turn out to be tough enough. Or is a wish-fulfilment character who is clearly tough enough. In such a story the hero would survive taking the Ring to Mordor and also the final test of dropping it into the fire. Tolkien's Letters contains his replies to readers who were not only surprised but annoyed about Frodo not managing that. In contrast, Faramir says: "I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee" as Faramir says once he has discovered what Frodo is carrying. And then he reassures F&S that he understands now how to help, including that he is aware of his own temptations: “Sleep, both of you–in peace, if you can. Fear not! I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I know (which is enough), lest peril perchance waylay me and I fall lower in the test than Frodo son of Drogo.” He also brushes off Sam's praise with a statement that one can take to be a refutation of the 'evil amplifier' idea being in action at this point: "I had no lure or desire to do other than I have done". Now I do think Sam is right, and Faramir has shown his character here. And it is a fine one because it contains self-knowledge. ~~~~*Tom Bombadil is the exception that proves (as in tests) the rule. He is not tougher than the Ring. He is indifferent to the Ring. But because of that it's no good asking him to do something to about it. To understand the peril means to be at risk of it.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 8 2023, 11:55am
Post #40 of 86
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I think these observations are more to remember as a rebuttal of Denethor later, when Denethor is saying that Faramir is a hopelessly out-of-touch romantic, whose stupid notions of chivalry will be the ruin of Gondor. In fact he seems to be a serious and highly competent infantry officer. Both in his subtle interrogation of Frodo and Sam, and in the warfare we see. "Faramir is not the nice person everyone thinks him to be" does not need to mean that "Faramir is nastier than he needs to be".
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Oct 8 2023, 1:02pm
Post #41 of 86
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Funny, I was just thinking along
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those lines late last night, reminding myself that Darkstone is a pretty subtle guy himself. I think you've got it.
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin
Oct 8 2023, 2:46pm
Post #42 of 86
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[Faramir’s revealing rebuttal puts Sam in his place] ‘Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor. But I do not slay man or beast needlessly, and not gladly even when it is needed. Why did Faramir not follow this command from Denethor? Was it a bit of subtle rebellion from a son who has long suffered slights and being considered less than the best? Or was it a character trait that serves to create a barrier for the effects of the Ring --- Mercy, mixed with pity for this hobbit who is taking on such a burden. Gandalf: “Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity." Faramir's release of Frodo and Sam is an echo of Bilbo, and later Frodo, allowing Gollum to life. And as with Gollum, it's a good thing he did. (And going to stick it in here as I've lost track of the better place.... the movie version having Faramir drag Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath makes me shudder every time -- when Sam says "By all rights we shouldn't even be here" I either mutter or shout (depending on where I'm watching) "Darn right!! For one that's 60 miles further south than you need to be and ...... etc etc etc" So much of the movie was extremely well done so when Jackson meddles it irks.)
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua (Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 8 2023, 7:07pm
Post #43 of 86
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Faramir begins to sound a bit like both Gandalf and Treebeard, doesn't he? I think you're absolutely right that Mercy is important, and also potentially something that is important part of why someone is not compatible with the Ring. If we're collecting a list of how Faramir differs from a standard-issue fantasy hero, then maybe Mercy can be an item on that list. I also think that Faramir has no need to be hasty. The situation is under his control. He can kill the captives any time he thinks it is necessary. But in the meantime he has more to gain by not doing it. He's not dithering or toying with the hobbits. He is making use of the time available to make the best decision. And of course it suits him for interrogation purposes to point this out. I've never been in the military, but in various situations I have seen weak or inexperienced leaders making lots of premature decisions. For example, the newly-arrived manager changes how things are done "to make their mark" before they understand why things are done the way they already are. This often does not go well, though in most business situations it probably can't go as badly as it could in the military at war. Someone less self-regarding, wiser and sterner (as per Tolkien's line about how Frodo sees Faramir, and which CuriousG quoted) is more able to resist the pressure to do something prematurely. Sometimes a hero is an inaction hero, because they hold off doing something until action is needed
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 9 2023, 2:16am
Post #44 of 86
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After that, his very real character: compassionate (treating Sam and Frodo with great kindness and consideration in his sendoff): just (for instance, honoring Frodo's commitment to Gollum, which didn't necessarily make the best strategic sense, therefore putting justice before expediency when he was able to do so--not always possible in a war for Faramir or anyone in charge); and not thirsting for power which if he had, like NoWiz said, would make him more likely to " . . . want to, at least a little bit." Instead he let the ring go. So yes, these actions make us know that Faramir is nicer than we think he is and even in the interrogation section he's doing it out of necessity and doubt during the time rather than really a nice or not nice way of doing things. IN terms of Denethor and his way of dealing with PIppin and Gandalf versus how he would to Frodo and Sam, i think you also gave the correct point about him being more doubtful of Gandalf and the stakes were higher . Boromir's means to and end is different than Faramir and it goes back to how the Ring may influence their decisions or how they thought of the Enemy's ring. I think that Faramir respected also the Council and lore more to know that Isildur's bane should not be thought of as the weapon but Boromir never really minded lore but more for defense of Gondor at all costs.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 9 2023, 2:19am
Post #45 of 86
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Nobody is tough enough to be 'superior' to the Ring in this conventional, machismo way. I think that's absolutely clear*. Those who are foolish or hubristic or desperate enough to think it would be a good idea (Saruman, Denethor, Boromir) come to bad ends. It is much wiser to do the thing that does not look conventionally heroic at all - flee. So therefore it's not about being superior or not it's about who is foolish and hubristic to fall for the Ring to be something to use for his own end and Faramir did not think the same way as those that you've mentioned above. It's not also about being heroic or not it's about self knowledge and self awareness more so. Heroism and the Ring is knowing that it's not something to be used in which Tolkien tried hard to show the contrast between those that resisted and those that did not.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Oct 9 2023, 3:11am
Post #46 of 86
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I really liked how Faramir thought of F&S :
Well, Frodo, now at last we understand one another. "If you took this thing on yourself, unwilling, at others' asking then you have pity and honor from me. And i marvel at you: to keep ithid and not to use it. You are a new people and a new world to me. Are all your kin of like sort? Your land must be a realm of peace and content and there must gardeners be in high honor." His assessment of the hobbits is 100% and they are unfamiliar to Men and Elves and their way of thinking of trinkets of power are not standard. they are not as affected by the Ring and also by even the Morgul Blade. Also, it's important to note that hobbits are surprising different non-hobbits in every turn of the story and that is what makes them so unique and invaluable. And yes, the exchange with sam at the end on how Sam perceived Faramir having an Elvish air is one of my favorite parts as well. Hobbits are indeed already special in Faramir's eyes and he is correct to perceive them as such. :) At end of Window on the West, they have an understanding
"Time passes. In the morning we must each go swiftly on the ways appointed to us." "By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Oct 9 2023, 3:12am)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 9 2023, 9:05am
Post #47 of 86
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If only I'd phrased things that clearly and succinctly it would have saved a lot of trouble
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Oct 9 2023, 7:57pm
Post #48 of 86
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Well, this is really insightful.
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Pity and mercy tracking through at least 3 characters as an effective antidote to the Ring's temptation. Perhaps because those traits require a certain amount of selflessness, or self-forgetfulness in one's regard for other people? I do think the ring exacerbates pride and self-centeredness, so the more you have the more at risk you are? And I don't think Faramir would risk rebellion for personal reasons with such potentially dangerous matters. But it is reassuring he would trust his own judgement in whether to carry out these ordered death sentences. More than one innocent person, other than these hobbits, might have died needlessly otherwise.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 10 2023, 3:12pm
Post #49 of 86
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Gets us out of another problem too
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If Faramir was somehow a Ring-proof superman who accepts the necessity of destroying the Ring, then someone would inevitably ask "why doesn't he go with Frodo and Sam to Mordor to help get it done"?
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Oct 10 2023, 3:18pm
Post #50 of 86
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Some thoughts of "Never Felt better"
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Never Felt Better is the nom de plume of an Irish blogger who is a Masters Graduate in the subjects of Military History and Strategic Study from NUI Maynooth at the Centre for Military History. He writes about those subjects, fantasy and science-fiction and other things. I find his thoughts about Tolkien are often interesting.
Faramir also, interestingly, goes into his feelings of sadness as to how warriors and soldiers have becomes the ideal of Gondor, the truly treasured members of society, as warfare becomes never ceasing: “… we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end.” Later he will consider the Shire, with its love for peace and green gardens, as a place to be treasured. It’s not hard to see a certain amount of Mary Sueing going on in all that, with a post-war Tolkien creating a character who openly places peace above war and decries militarism, save in the case of fighting an enemy that cannot be resisted by any other means: not hard to see a Nazi Germany allegory there too, the spoken intent of the author aside. I was reminded here very much of the idealisation of soldiery evident in much of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century, when such a profession was seen as the ultimate expression of masculinity and patriotism, feelings that surely must have influenced Tolkien, who lived through the horrors that such thinking birthed between 1914 and 1918. Perhaps Faramir, speaking of his reluctant acceptance of such a role, the soldier fighting only because he feels he must, is somewhat of a mouthpiece for Tolkien himself. The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: The Window On The West, 2011, by Never Felt Better ~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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