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JRandomRohirrim01
The Shire
Jan 23 2023, 9:27pm
Post #1 of 18
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Least Favorite Changes
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Even after 20 years, a few things bug me.
FOTR: Sheer quantity of orcs attacking Aragorn at the end. Minor point, but like in Star Wars, you have a few scenes of overwhelming odds where there was just no way "the hero" could fight their way out. I was never a big Tom Bombadill or barrow wights fan so I never missed them. Tom in particular felt like something from The Hobbit.
TTT: Arwen. I understood that "Arwen as warrior" didn't work out, and I was always OK with removing that notion from the movie. I thought the change having Arwen taking some of Glorfindel's part in FOTR was just fine. In TTT, they had Arwen turning into a weepy teenager when her father tells her "You're going to long outlive Aragorn if you marry him". That scene makes her feel really stupid - this couldn't have been news to her. While I generally enjoyed Peter & Phillipa's comments the appendixes, I still don't like the way they tried to sell that scene as "Arwen being strong."
ROTK: Not including Sauruman's death in the original version of the movie, and only as part of the extended edition. Also had mixed feelings about how he died, but... And again Arwen. I liked the way she decided to go home. I didn't like the "Arwen is dying" bit at all. It was unnecessary. Aragorn had enough going on. Theoretically, elves don't die until they get a sword through the brain.
On the whole though, I like the adaptations very much, and still watch it once every few years.
(This post was edited by JRandomRohirrim01 on Jan 23 2023, 9:30pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 24 2023, 12:54am
Post #2 of 18
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Elves can die of grief.and hoplessness
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Actually, Elves can die of grief and hopelessness.
This is not explained the movies but is consistent with Tolkien's Eldar.
They can also die from injuries that do not involve the brain.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jan 24 2023, 12:56am)
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JRandomRohirrim01
The Shire
Jan 24 2023, 2:32am
Post #3 of 18
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But in every other instance, you always hear either Arwen still saying "I have hope" or someone like Aragorn saying "She has hope." It was just bizarre that she changed so suddenly in that scene over something she had to have been aware of.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 24 2023, 6:57am
Post #4 of 18
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In TTT, they had Arwen turning into a weepy teenager when her father tells her "You're going to long outlive Aragorn if you marry him". That scene makes her feel really stupid - this couldn't have been news to her. While I generally enjoyed Peter & Phillipa's comments the appendixes, I still don't like the way they tried to sell that scene as "Arwen being strong."
I really enjoyed her delivery of "But there is also life! You saw there was a child. You saw my son." Her emphatic and powerful depth of feeling was strength to me, as she fought for the life of her unconceived son.
ROTK: Not including Sauruman's death in the original version of the movie, and only as part of the extended edition.
My sense of loss was only as sympathy for Christopher Lee here, and temporary. Lee himself later explained his own ameliorated feelings about it when he realized that the theatrical release would be seen by far fewer eyes far fewer times than the extended versions released on home media and viewed ad infinitum (now on streaming). I felt much better about it hearing this directly from an old man who, typically for old people, is likely becoming more and more concerned about their legacy, and knowing his extended work would last far longer than an ephemeral release in the theaters.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Jan 24 2023, 7:00am)
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 24 2023, 12:31pm
Post #5 of 18
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I'll go so far as to say that Arwen was badly cast, badly written and badly acted.
I'm a fan of Liv Tyler in general - and I get what they were going for. But like many of the cast of Jackson's films I just really disagree with Jackson's "vision" for the characters.
I obviously love the movies and watch and re-watch them every year - but I have a very different aesthetic in mind for the world.
I've posted this before - but the slow moving, slow talking ethereal Elves drove me nuts. (Cate Blanchett was good - always is - you could tie her up in a sack and she'd still be amazing)
And Arwen drove me nuts. Tyler even laments in the behind the scenes that she was directed to speak in a lower register and to be more "Elven" and the whole thing just was a big swing and a miss for me.
Even Hugo Weaving was wasted in that role.
I really think that if Jackson and co had rethought their approach to Elves and Dwarves a little bit the movies could have been way better.
I am aware, however, that this is a deeply personal opinion and that I'm just one lonely viewer.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Asger
Rivendell
Jan 24 2023, 4:15pm
Post #6 of 18
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RK: That the dead army was brought to Minas Tirith. The dead woudn’t be any good against orcs, Any orc would laugh in the face of a human ghost as they and their superiors ar much more terrible than a flimsy dead man. Besides, as another had pointed out, Sauron is the Necromancer, he would have taken control of the dead army to a terrible end. Agains superstitious pirates it’s quite another thing.
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jan 26 2023, 8:04pm
Post #7 of 18
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One behind the scenes detail that always made me feel a bit crestfallen was learning that Liv Tyler never actually got on a horse. However, this has made Morfydd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel during the ROP episode six chase of Adar scene all the more impressive, as she did much of the riding herself.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
https://photobucket.com/u/dwellerindale/p/e4d5c290-01ed-4f07-b181-5e1285bf25f6
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 3:23am
Post #8 of 18
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... Galadriel during the ROP episode six chase of Adar scene all the more impressive
I'm not sure I'm thinking of the same ride to which you refer, but I saw the clip with the smile, and the reviews. As they might say, a reviewer's trash is another fan's treasure. Arwen's smile didn't break my face. I wonder if HR was called when the director asked Galadriel to turn that frown upside down.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Jan 27 2023, 3:25am)
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 4:08am
Post #9 of 18
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The scene I referred to occurs in episode six and would have required some skill as it involved riding at a fast pace through a forest.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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Starling
Half-elven
Jan 27 2023, 9:30am
Post #10 of 18
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was extremely challenging. I wouldn't expect anyone but the most skilled rider to pull it off.
It irks me that the 'barrel' riders are so obvious in their shots - this includes David Wenham. I wished they had just stuck with the stunties. The only core cast member who is a skilled rider is Viggo Mortensen, which is clearly obvious in many scenes.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 12:30pm
Post #11 of 18
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The stunts and horse riding in ROP was amazing.
You must be thinking of the "Riding horses down the Numenorean beach in slow motion while smiling weirdly" scene.
That scene was full cringe.
But it was very much the SAME cringe as the moment when Frodo wakes up in Rivendell post Mordor and the remaining Fellowship members each come into the room in turn, in slow motion, and smile and laugh weirdly together. Almost identical in their head-scatchingly cringeness.
Just a bad artistic choice.
Tolkien has moments of magic and beauty in his works that we find hard to fully articulate. I chalk these cringey moments up to the filmmakers best attempts to capture some of that uncapturable magic. The result is usually awful.
No need to read too much into it.
Certainly no need for HR
(Watch the show)
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 2:16pm
Post #12 of 18
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Tidbits from the riding scenes
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- In FOTR and episode six of ROP, both Arwen and Galadriel urge their horses to go faster with the Sindarin "Noro lim!"
- There is a continuity error in the scene in FOTR; one moment Frodo has some crusty yellow-green gunk on his face, and moments later it is completely gone.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 9:09pm
Post #13 of 18
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(Watch the show)
For the chuckle. :)
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 27 2023, 9:11pm
Post #14 of 18
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There is a continuity error in the scene in FOTR; one moment Frodo has some crusty yellow-green gunk on his face, and moments later it is completely gone.
We didn't see it, but a branch hit him in the face on the way past and wiped away the crud. If you tell me it was back again later, it was just some more of the same after the wipe.
See, even I can make excuses. ;)
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
Jan 28 2023, 9:38am
Post #15 of 18
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This is not the RoP forum. I'm not singling anyone out here, as most of your posts did include LotR material.
Let's avoid wandering off into RoP-only territory, especially because many TORnsibs are not watching it.
ElanorTX
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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elentari3018
Rohan
Apr 30 2023, 2:47am
Post #16 of 18
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Frodo sending Sam away- i can't get over that
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I can't get over Frodo falling that many times in FotR.
I wanted him to ride to the fords himself and not have Arwen carry him. '"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me" is a line sorely missed.
He hit the Nazgul in "Knife in the Dark" and also made a last stand-- all of that is missing in the movies.
Faramir taking the Ring and the whole Osgiliath nonsense can't be forgiven.
Nevertheless, of course i love the movies but these changes leave a bad taste in my mouth (or i just fast forward. :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Saruman
Bree
Jun 10 2023, 5:53am
Post #17 of 18
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Some stuff will always bug me.
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FotR: Leaving out Crickhollow & the Old Forest is a totally missed opportunity, I love that part of the book so much. At the same time, it's nice to have those scenes (including Bombadil & Barrow-downs) to the imagination.
Boromir has dark hair, he's not blondish. Tolkien describes him wonderfully in the book. Sean Bean was too old for the role. Yes, I said that. Boromir should have been younger and more rash. He's the one who throws the stone into the foul pool outside Moria, NOT Pippin & Merry.
TTT: King Théoden being under the spell of Saruman sucks, it takes away his agency and Grima's influential nature. The King should have been made to look older. His hair should have been white, longer, and braided. Story-wise, the worst part of the entire trilogy is Aragorn's "death." So unnecessary. Faramir taking Sam & Frodo to Osgiliath also makes zero sense; it would have taken them more time to get back to where they were before they were kidnapped by Faramir's men.
RotK: Saruman's death. Saruman's death. Oh, and Saruman's death. Falling from Orthanc and landing directly on a spinning wheel of death? Just stupid. Grima should have slit his throat; Legolas shoots Grima and the end. Ultimately I would have loved to see the Scouring of the Shire and the proper death of Saruman, especially showing the mist of his spirit being denied by the West.
Lastly, denying Pippin his moment in the sun when he slays a great troll at the Battle of the Black Gate was just wrong. Merry shouldn't have been at that battle, either.
I could go on. But then I'd never get to sleep. 
"I have seen it..."
(This post was edited by Saruman on Jun 10 2023, 5:55am)
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GreenHillFox
Bree
Jun 10 2023, 9:07pm
Post #18 of 18
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Agreeing with almost everything, Saruman!
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I agree with 95% of what you said, so I can be quick to say where my own opinion differed: Sean Bean as Boromir was great, I thought, and personalized the proud LOTR character with much precision. Just my own opinion, no offense.
However I took issues with two other characters. For Aragorn, the lofty great personage of high lineage, Viggo Mortensen was often looking more like a teddy-bear lovesick teenager. And John Rhys-Davies may have played what he was asked to do, but he disfigured the original personality of Gimli beyond recognition.
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