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noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 2, 5:55pm

Post #26 of 54 (2781 views)
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Why, thank you! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 2, 6:05pm

Post #27 of 54 (2785 views)
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"I want to be evil"... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I have a Kit(t)
...
Maybe we should all have tea together, seperately.

(An old joke - a bloke walks into a pub, buys three pints of beer, sits by himself and drinks them one by one. Then he goes home. Eventually the barman asks him about it.

"Well you see," the man says, "I have two brothers. We used to have a pint together on Friday nights, but now we live in different towns and can't be together. But I know that when I was drinking those pints there, my two brothers were each in a pub drinking theirs. So you see, we drink together, seperately."

The barman agrees this is lovely and the performance continues each Friday night until...

"Oh, just two pints tonight, Landlord."

Barman, shocked "Oh dear, I'm so terribly sorry...."

"Oh, no don't worry! It's nothing like that. It's just that I've given up drinking." )

Evil

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Aug 2, 6:11pm

Post #28 of 54 (2785 views)
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I shall have some today. (Tea, not evil.) [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, that was scary!Laugh

And I actually did laugh out loud. I love absurdity . . .



noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 2, 7:11pm

Post #29 of 54 (2778 views)
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embalming, and an arc which bends towards something [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember reading this about the embalming dea, and being a bit surprised about it. It's an interesting contrast to how the elves are presented in the text: you can easily think of them as enriching Middle-earth, and as a civilising presence.

Typical Tolkien to be all complicated about things. Perhaps more than one perspective has some merit?
I think that what is wrong with 'embalming' in Middle-earth is that it it is an attempt to hold back the Music. Because of The Music, there is canonically in Arda something that is a matter of dispute in the Primary world: an arc which bends towards.... But what it bends towards is presumably whatever Eru had in mind -- you may not like it, and it may not feel like justice to this person or tha one. But trying to stop it will turn out to have been part of the music all along....


So understandably this embalming stuff doesn't work -- doesn't work the way the elves wanted, at least whatever it may have hypotetically contributed to the Music -- and in the end they have to pack it in .

'The long defeat' Elrond calls it.

But has it all been for naught? Has no good come of it at all? Was it only ever selfishness? - arguably not.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Aug 2, 7:14pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 2, 8:53pm

Post #30 of 54 (2761 views)
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Very well then: "A pot of absurdi-tea, please" [In reply to] Can't Post

Or, come to think of it, do you have to make absurdi-tea in a sieve?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Aug 2, 9:03pm

Post #31 of 54 (2759 views)
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And a crockery jar. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll whistle and warble, for our teatime entertainment, if you'll write me a moony song.



Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 2, 11:41pm

Post #32 of 54 (2738 views)
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I think not. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Or, come to think of it, do you have to make absurdi-tea in a sieve?


No. The quality of absurdi-tea is not strained.


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


Meneldor
Doriath


Aug 3, 1:16am

Post #33 of 54 (2725 views)
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It's time [In reply to] Can't Post

to bag this thread.



They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 3, 11:31am

Post #34 of 54 (2574 views)
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Hmm-mmm. Yes, a lot of 'Final Girl' movies [In reply to] Can't Post

  

In Reply To
Horror tales usually involve someone being overpowered as a victim, and eventually fighting back by doing things formerly unthinkable, so it's about of a "let your dark side out of jail for free" card, and because the victim is fighting back against someone/something evil, they get an automatic stamp of approval on their otherwise morally questionable acts of violence. But there are plenty of corruption horror tales too, and that's more about temptation, or good intentions going astray due to a lack of understanding. Sauron's One Ring plays on both, if we look at Frodo on Mt Doom, both overpowered and corrupted (though mostly overpowered; by contrast, Gandalf and Galadriel feared corruption taking them over).


Yes, a lot of 'Final Girl' movies:

Quote
Benny: But I still want to know what happens!

Buffy: Everyone gets horribly killed except the blonde girl in the nightie who finally kills the monster with a machete but it's not really dead.

Jennifer: Oh my God. Is that true?

Buffy: Probably. What movie is this?

— Cut dialogue from Buffy the Vampire Slayer


I suppose Tolkien would be more likely to say you don't get that sort of free pass. The proverbial 'blonde girl in the nightie' uses the Ring to kill the monster and it is really dead except she's the next monster.
Or, publishing at about the same time as LOTR, Animal Farm in which the new masters become indistinguishable from the old masters...

But these works may be intending to do something different from the horror movie whose Final Girl may not reflect all that much thoughtfulness on the human ability to do be or beccome evil, and is more interested to please many factions of the audience (at least, according to TVTropes):

Quote

It's also interesting to note how the Final Girl can be interpreted in film theory. On one hand, the character seems to be the living embodiment of stereotypical conservative attitudes of what women "should be". On the other, feminists have noticed that through this device, the males in the audience are forced to identify with a woman in the climax of the movie. In practical terms, the makers of a horror film want the victim to experience abject terror in the climax, and feel that viewers would reject a film that showed a man experiencing such abject terror.


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 3, 11:32am

Post #35 of 54 (2575 views)
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No crockery jar, I'm afraid: someone made T.N-tea in it // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 3, 11:33am

Post #36 of 54 (2573 views)
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mercy! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 3, 11:34am

Post #37 of 54 (2573 views)
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:) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Aug 3, 2:51pm

Post #38 of 54 (2556 views)
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Fëanor - a re-reading of his speech to the Noldor (and some gems from the 2013 readthrough) [In reply to] Can't Post

I re-read Fëanor's speech to the Noldor (Sil., Flight of the Noldor) and I noticed something I wasn't equipped to notice back when we last did that chapter as a readthrough (2013) Then I was also struck by several of the comments in that discussion and thought I'd haul them out of retirement to see how relevant or otherwise they are to our current topic.


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Fëanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it; and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride; and hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness. His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils. He claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar.


So that is interesting for starters: Fëanor's words are his own, "but yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself" Those are the ideas he turns to in his anger and distress "distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils".

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Long he spoke, and ever he urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East, before it was too late; for he echoed the lies of Melkor, that the Valar had cozened them and would hold them captive so that Men might rule in Middle-earth. Many of the Eldar heard then for the first time of the Aftercomers. ‘Fair shall the end be,’ he cried, ‘though long and hard shall be the road! Say farewell to bondage! But say farewell also to ease! Say farewell to the weak! Say farewell to your treasures! More still shall we make. Journey light: but bring with you your swords! For we will go further than Oromë, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!


So it is a conspiracy theory of the kind much more familiar today than it was (to me) in 2013. The assertion that the elite have tricked us (for some reason - why they'd do this seems not to matter) and are really in cahoots with another group who will replace us.

It might be fun to play "evil radiation or psychic amplifier" with Fëanor's situation. Is he in the grips of an evil force external to himself, or is there some fault or weakness in his character that is coming out in these stressful circumstances. Or both, or other things too.
And a further (equallyunanswerable?) question is whether he really believes this conspiracy theory, or whether it is what will get sufficient of the Noldor fired up enough to give him what he wants. That is, to what extent has he gone Machiavellian?
And furthermore, what role does Fëanor's fury play in all of this?

Looking back on that 2013 readthrough, I'm struck by some great points by our still-sorely-missed comrade Brethil (OP Questions in bold, her answers in regular weight type):

Quote
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri.
If they taken direct action, gone against his Free Will and had compelled him, what would have happened? Would he have died then and there of grief; somehow I don't think so because he would not be sad, he would be angry. Would he have destroyed the Trees a second time? Not sure if I see that either. Would he have spent time near the Trees, in their Light...hmm. That's a possibility. Somehow I think that he might have tried again to re-create the Jewels, but I think it would have failed. Then, perhaps, I think he might have given up; but then there would be no Fall. So maybe what JRRT is saying here is that choice and Free Will is at the heart of every fall from grace. I think Feanor sees taking the Teleri's ships as secondary to his Creations; at this point I think he sees everything secondary to his creations, which ties up with JRRT's idea that politicizing the world and reducing everyone and everything else to their minimal, utilitarian meaning is a huge act of rebellion against Good. The Teleri, their lives and their ships mean only to Feanor in that moment what he needs them to be; all their merits and life and kinship mean nothing because Feanor is too focused on getting his way.

7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils? Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father? Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions? Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures?

I think it is the overflow of emotion here, and I think (too late perhaps) he does love something more than the Jewels, in that moment, for we read that he valued his father was dearer to him than the peerless works of his hands. So that guilt and rage I think gets channeled at the Valar; I think on the strength of that emotion though his anger congeals and the Valar are an easy target as he is confident that, unlike Melkor, the Valar will not strike at him.
Brethil, post in discussion about Flight of the Noldor, 2013

Re-reading the end part of Brethils' answer to (6) I'm struck how psychopathic Fëanor's behaviour is at this point - there is nothing more to people or things than whether they are a tool to get what he wants or an obstacle in his way.

How about the following mob of Noldor -- evil or not? I don't think I can add anything more to this survey of motives from that 2013 discussion:

Quote
After a debate, the greater part of the Noldor resolve to depart, and Fëanor drives them on in haste, fearing that he will lose them if there is a delay. As the Noldor set out a messenger from the Valar arrives to tell the Noldor that they may leave (i.e. refuting Fëanor’s allegation that they are effectively being held prisoner), but that their quest has no chance of success. Morevoer, Fëanor is declared banished. This fails to calm things down. [added 2025: I think Fëanor is determined not to let things calm down: he'll lose to mob if things do calm down.]

What’s driving the Noldor? There’s a hard core (Fëanor & sons) bent on revenge and recovery of the Silmarils. In any case, Fëanor has just been banished by the Valar. But clearly Fëanor knows that the whole group is not behind this; and that his hold on the rest is shaky (so he is at pains to get them all committed fast). What motivates the others? A further group are interested in the opportunities that might await in Middle-earth - for example Galadriel “was eager to be gone...she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and rule there a realm at her own will.” Others are more reluctant. Fingolfin (Feanor's step-brother) is in the classic moderate’s bind that “he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash councils of Fëanor”.


Last of my points rediscovered from 2013, I an struck by this from maciliel:

Quote
re rebellion:

i'm also not quite understanding the label of "rebellion." it seems to me, that would only apply to some of the noldor: feanor, for coming to tirion; anyone involved in the kinslaying. but plenty of noldor had no part in either of those activities. why wouldn't they be free to depart for middle earth? what laws had they broken?

although i think that the elves should never have been called to live in valinor permanently, at the same time i think it's a sort of madness to go to middle earth at this time, with morgoth on the loose. especially with the valar saying "no take-backs" and that they're not going to help.

rather a wretched scenario. they're going back to middle earth, where they were +supposed+ to be in the first place (and i invoke, as supporting evidence, lines from lotr to the effect "a land of middle earth enriched by the elves remembers them long after their departure"), but in a no-win situation. yes, feanor bears a lot of responsibility -- but i think the greater authors in this mess are the valar, who could have kept morgoth at bay in the first place, and who should never have called the eldar to live in aman permanently in the first place.

which leads me too....


what's driving the noldor?

yes, feanor is quite the orator. but that's perhaps not the main thing that drives them.

i think what drives them is that their fear and hoar are being called back to middle earth, where they belong.

why do the vanyar and teleri not feel this calling? well, they're not stirred up as the noldor are. perhaps if they had their own feanors, they'd also be packing up their poetry books and unfurling their sails.

maciliel-thoughts, 2013


I like that idea, and if I have understood it, it suddenly strikes me that here we have a failure of the Valar's plan to 'embalm' the elves.



And I find I'm humming:

Your elves are running and off theyl go, and if you don't know
The piper's calling them to join him
Dear Manwë can you hear the wind blow
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind, oh


ooops, sorry "No Stairway", I forgot

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Aug 3, 3:01pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Aug 3, 4:17pm

Post #39 of 54 (2542 views)
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Oh no! What happened to Liber-tea, égali-tea, and especially [In reply to] Can't Post

fraterni-tea?



CuriousG
Gondolin


Aug 3, 7:27pm

Post #40 of 54 (2482 views)
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"Perhaps more than one perspective has some merit?" >> Madness! [In reply to] Can't Post

But yeah, I do agree. I try to think of M-earth without Rivendell and Lorien, and in LOTR we're left with the Shire/Bree, Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor besides wilderness (OK, Moria is still exciting). It seems rather boring without thinking of the enchanted Elven realms where time has a different pace and pulse, and healing and wisdom abound. I had mixed feelings about the Elves in The Hobbit, but in LOTR when we first meet Elves on the road to Crickhollow, they're close enough to angelic: 1) the Black Riders fear them, 2) they advise Frodo as much as Elves will plus send messages (somehow) so that others will help him, and 3) they seem to almost appear and disappear like magic. Then of course in Rivendell and Lorien, there's no such thing as an evil Elf, and there's a sense of wonder rather than embalming.

But I respect that Tolkien didn't want them to be perfect, so he came up with 'embalming' as a minor fault. It's doesn't lead to "cancel culture" levels of outrage, fortunately.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Aug 3, 7:48pm

Post #41 of 54 (2476 views)
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Campaign promises [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Re-reading the end part of Brethils' answer to (6) I'm struck how psychopathic Fëanor's behaviour is at this point - there is nothing more to people or things than whether they are a tool to get what he wants or an obstacle in his way.

How about the following mob of Noldor -- evil or not? I don't think I can add anything more to this survey of motives from that 2013 discussion:


I think Feanor rates as evil considering what he did to the Teleri: he was a robber and a thief. And then he gets more evil as he incites all the Noldor to leave Valinor, and then he burns the Teleir ships at Losgar, which was just plain mean-spirited and a sign of his narcissim: if you weren't his follower, you didn't matter, even if you helped him steal the ships. So those campaign promises about "we" turned out be empty.

It's funny how the gut-feelings go. I don't feel like all Noldor were evil. I feel like they were misled and later regretted their actions. Maybe with my own moral compass, evil isn't a single act, even if it's heinous, like slaughtering the poorly-armed Teleri to rob them. Of course it's wrong and morally reprehensible, but "evil" to me spans years and isn't something you do once (or twice) because your emotions ran high and overwhelmed your reason and moral inhibitions. For that reason, the Sons of Feanor seem evil because you could count on them to orchestrate another couple of Kinslayings, along with usurping control of Nargothrond, destroying Doriath, and Luthien enters the chat about them having no qualms about consent. It just goes on and on.

But they don't feel entirely evil: Maedhros was a heroic warrior, Maglor kept Elrond and Elros alive and well, etc. So in summary: Melkor is evil all the time and gets 100/100 score. Feanor would get about 75/100. His sons about 50/100. And the rest of the Noldor I wouldn't even put on the scale. That's my musing on a Sunday afternoon.

Then a note to add to Maciel's musings in 2013: while Tolkien wrote Feanor as shockingly opposing the Valar, and that somehow seems evil to the author, I can just never rouse the same disapproval that Tolkien does. As Mac said, the Noldor weren't really breaking any laws by "going into exile," they were supposed to have some choice in this and not be serfs tied to the land by law. Crimes against the Teleri--yes. But against the Valar? Hard for me to care much.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 4, 11:02pm

Post #42 of 54 (2063 views)
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*groan* // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 4, 11:07pm

Post #43 of 54 (2062 views)
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Brewed, but con-strained by a technicali-tea. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Felagund
Nargothrond


Sat, 6:27pm

Post #44 of 54 (911 views)
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evil acts, the taint of evil and evil incarnate [In reply to] Can't Post

Coming very late to this excellent thread and have very much enjoyed reading through!

Of the many things that caught my eye was CuriousG’s reflection on Tolkien’s presentation of ‘opposition’ to the Valar and whether such opposition is something that a modern reader might not necessarily interpret as ‘evil’ – even though in Tolkien’s secondary world imagining, rebellion against the ‘natural order’ is usually frowned upon and usually the trigger for some pretty horrific events. And I note too, Maciliel’s coverage of this in the 2013 thread that has been linked back to – and which has also been a delight to revisit.

Turning, inevitably (!), to Morgoth’s Ring, specifically ‘Laws and Customs amongst the Eldar’, there is some fascinating unpacking there by the author of what I’ll call a particular ‘subset’ of evil on the part of Elves. The context is the author’s setting out of the ‘Houseless’ and the ‘Lingerers’. The former are the fëar of Elves who have refused the summons to Mandos and are thus in rebellion (“the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint”), may have become enslaved by a counter-summons from Morgoth, and may seek to seize control of a mortal’s hröa by expelling the original fëa – transgression piled upon transgression. The latter are those Elves who have chosen to remain or ‘linger’ in Middle-earth, and whose hröa has faded over time but otherwise don’t seek to harm mortals. Feigned commentary from Aelfwine is then cited, offering the following reflection:


Quote
Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold the Elves as dangerous to Men and that it is folly to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds? On the one hand, the Houseless, rebels at least against the Rulers [the Valar], and maybe even deeper under the Shadow; on the other, the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully. Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied… So spoke Aelfwine.


The sentiment is ‘very Tolkien’, if I can put it that way. Transgression against the Rulers and the One is inherently ‘a bad thing’. And in this example, whether a Houseless Elvish fëa is under the domination of the Shadow or just freelancing it, it strikes me that essentially crushing and driving out another sentient being’s spirit in order to possess a body is fundamentally evil. The commentary does indicate that foolish mortals did dabble in these risks in the hope of acquiring power and knowledge, thus opening themselves to this kind of attack. However, to my mind, this doesn’t make the possessive actions of the Houseless any less evil.

Turning to even more speculative stuff, I wonder if there’s a subtle nuance to be had here, between ‘rebellion’ and ‘transgression’ and where ‘evil’ intersects. Something that could perhaps be adapted to noWiz’s excellent x & y axes. The Flight of the Noldor back to Middle-earth isn’t actually an act of rebellion at the point at which Fëanor is seeking to rally the Noldor to him at Tirion. The only rebellion at that point is that he, personally, is breaking the terms of his banishment (“the doom of banishment that had been laid upon him was not yet lifted, and he rebelled against the Valar.” – ‘The Flight of the Noldor’, The Sil). When the Valar eventually opine, it’s to urge the Noldor not to leave, although they will neither help nor hinder a return to Middle-earth and state that the Noldor are indeed free to leave (“as you came hither freely, freely shall ye depart”). The messenger of the Valar who addresses the Noldor also makes clear that “the hour is evil” and that this is destined to shape the future, should Noldor rush ahead now. Again, it’s Fëanor who’s singled out as ‘transgressive’: “by thine oath art exiled”. I use transgression to describe the oath, as it’s a singularly insane declaration of an eternal, indiscriminate pursuit of vengeance and repossession that no one but his sons appear willing to undertake. Where the transgression quickly widens out is through the horror of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. That is what seems to definitively prompt the Prophecy of the North / Doom of the Noldor moment, where the transgressors are called out and cursed by the Valar. This is the juncture at which the Noldor can seek pardon now (the ‘Finarfin route’) or march on and be condemned to “Tears unnumbered”, “to evil end shall all things turn that they begin well”, “For blood ye shall render blood” and so on. We’ve moved from “the hour is evil, and your roads lead to sorrow that ye do not foresee” (but we won’t stop you) to you “have stained the land of Aman” and “to evil end shall all things turn” (if you persist with this mad crusade you can eat this curse).

I don’t think Tolkien was splitting hairs like I’m attempting to with the above (rebels cf. transgressors). He does, however, sprinkle the text with reasons why the likes of Fingolfin and the children of Finarfin carry on, despite the sliding doors moment they face in the Prophecy of the North – be it a sense of kinship, guilt, the “will of Fëanor”, fear of the Valar, boldness and determination to see a task through and so on. All that to say, I agree with others in the thread that the Noldor as a group aren’t inherently evil for leaving Valinor when the Valar first urged them not to or even after the Prophecy of the North is uttered. Yet the act of leaving ends up being tainted to the point that a rebel Noldo won’t simply be able to hang up their boots at the end of their edgy adventure. The lifeblood of the entire venture and all its subplots is polluted with evil, even if that rebel Noldo acquits themselves honourably along the way. Only through the seeking and granting of the pardon of the Valar can the Doom of the Noldor be lifted: that's the only way to settle the ledger. The Flight of the Noldor and what follows may not feature loads of evil Elves but the enterprise itself becomes framed in terms of evil and is the harbinger of much more evil to come.

Pretty much everything I've covered above is at the level of the Children of Eru / Eruhíni. Whether embodied or 'houseless'. Something Tolkien does with evil, which perhaps is what helps to stimulate these kinds of discussions, is that his secondary world also features 'evil incarnate'. This is something that noWiz gets into in one of his awesome posts:


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Asked whether I agreed with statements "Sauron is evil" or "Morgoth is evil" I'd say I agreed. What I'd mean would be that the behaviour of these characters is set into such a predictable pattern that it's a handy shorthand to phrase it that they've become their characteristic. And their characteristic is that everything must serve or be destroyed (or possibly, if the whim strikes, serve by being destroyed).


Our two Dark Lords have backstories, more or less - and I'd argue that Sauron's, patiently pieced together from across a range of texts, is the more complex. So, they're not just cardboard cutout super baddies. However, what they become is arguably two-dimensional, and by design. Their very incarnation in Arda ends up being an externalised manifestation of primary evil. Not that their existence and megalomania means that everyone else gets a pass because evil literally walks the land and therefore certain things are just inevitable ('I had to commit that genocide because the evil god-king told me too / said it was okay'). Yes, Melkor lied to Fëanor, killed his dad and stole his stuff but he didn't leave a note commanding him to swear a blasphemous oath, murder the Teleri, steal and then burn their stuff, and then betray and abandon the majority of the Noldor. And Morgoth didn't message Eöl with an instruction manual on the abduction of women or how to commit filicide. Nonetheless, 'evil' in Arda is not solely a matter of evil deeds and at what point those deeds stack up to a point at which someone can be called evil. In Tolkien's secondary world, evil is not just a descriptor - it's also concentrated (and, ironically dispersed) and relentlessly manifest.

Inevitably, at some point we get back to Arda Marred when it comes to evil, as well as a serve of 'how does free will actually work in Arda?'. To vainly attempt to cut those long stories short, I reckon neither rules out the existence of evil Elves or evil acts by Elves - whilst also acknowledging the subtle distinction between inherency and an act. To quote Aelfwine irresponsibly out of context: Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Sat, 9:34pm

Post #45 of 54 (897 views)
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Sustained applause--for this and for everybody so far. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you've made it exceptionally clear.
I always thought Tolkien was a little incomplete on the elves and evil, but now I think I was a bit foggy instead, and simply hadn't given it that much thought.
Thank you!



Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Sun, 3:51pm

Post #46 of 54 (731 views)
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Míriel's Demon Baby [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I always think the birth of Feanor is disturbing, like a big nasty cosmic coughing fit where things just plain went wrong. I don't blame anyone for it, and I don't see how you can blame a child for "stealing" energy that would have otherwise gone to his siblings, but Miriel's assessment is chilling all the same. Maybe it makes me think of the Damien/Devil child movies of the 1970s, and that isn't fair of me:

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But in the bearing of her son Míriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwë: ‘Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.’



I can't deny that I have long been thinking about Fëanor's birth along the same horror movie lines. It would have been the key detail in my years-delayed theory post showing that Fëanor and Sauron are the same entity.

But wait, noWizardme got ahead of me in proposing that Sauron was Fëanor! (I'm actually serious about the idea, though.)

I think "Sauron = Fëanor = Sauron" actually works really well if you think about it. It explains neatly what made Fëanor so special. The idea is that Sauron the Maia reincarnated himself as Finwë's son and truly became a biological Elf. This was probably very hard to do, but Sauron was or would become an expert in the area of doing unnatural things with life and death.


In Reply To
So do normal rules of good and evil still apply? They should, do we stretch them a little since Feanor was in a class of his own? And why is the parallel to Melkor always popping up, as if fate made them turn to evil, or made it more likely they would choose that path?

Feanor: "He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand."

Melkor: "To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren."

>>> If you're just plain born superior to everyone else, are you destined to be a narcissist? Will you always be frustrated by the limited ambitions and abilities of others and see yourself as entitled to play by your own rules because you're playing on a higher dimension than everyone else?


Based on how Elven reincarnation works, I think Sauron/Fëanor also would have been reborn with amnesia, with his memories only returning gradually in adulthood. So I think Fëanor genuinely loved his father etc.

As for Fëanor's superiority, I'm also reminded of this quote from Frodo:
"I should like to save the Shire, if I could – though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them."

Imagine how it would have been for Frodo after some thousands of years if he and hobbits were immortal and the supernatural rulers of the Shire made it strictly illegal to leave.

I think a big part of Sauron's tyranny is him getting tired of having to explain obvious (to him) things over and over (often to those who still wouldn't understand or want to change their ways) and so start giving out orders along the lines of "treat prisoners decently or get all of you summarily executed".


noWizardme
Gondolin


Sun, 5:16pm

Post #47 of 54 (717 views)
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Now Feanor is reminding me of Pippin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes, Melkor lied to Fëanor, killed his dad and stole his stuff but he didn't leave a note commanding him to swear a blasphemous oath, murder the Teleri, steal and then burn their stuff, and then betray and abandon the majority of the Noldor. And Morgoth didn't message Eöl with an instruction manual on the abduction of women or how to commit filicide. Nonetheless, 'evil' in Arda is not solely a matter of evil deeds and at what point those deeds stack up to a point at which someone can be called evil. In Tolkien's secondary world, evil is not just a descriptor - it's also concentrated (and, ironically dispersed) and relentlessly manifest.

Which, I think speaks to the pattern that turns up everywhere - there being (arguably) a source of bad influence and also (arguably) choices that a character makes in response, or in that context.
Something about that reminded me of Pippin, when he steals and looks in the palantir Gandalf has just secured from Saruman. It's clear that Pippin is acting very out of character, but he keeps going. Once he is on the ride to Godor with Gandalf, Gandalf tells him some palantir lore and there is this exchange:

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‘I wish I had known all this before,’ said Pippin. ‘I had no notion of what I was doing.’

‘Oh yes, you had,’ said Gandalf. ‘You knew you were behaving wrongly and foolishly; and you told yourself so, though you did not listen. I did not tell you all this before, because it is only by musing on all that has happened that I have at last understood, even as we ride together. But if I had spoken sooner, it would not have lessened your desire, or made it easier to resist. On the contrary! No, the burned hand teaches best. After that advice about fire goes to the heart.’


Now of course there is no way I can think of of knowing whether Feanor knew he was behaving wrongly and foolishly; and told himself so, though he did not listen. That's simply because of the point of view used in the two pieces of writing. The Flight of the Noldor is mostly told from the point of view of someone witnessing it, whereas in The Palantir we're privy to Pippin's thought processes as he has them (and so we know Gandalf is right). The only thing I can think of (top of my head) that is like Pippin's episode is the odd thought processes that Frodo has and learns to identify as (or excuse as?) outside intereference.

But let's note that if there always seems to be temptation or provocation to evil, there usually also seems to be the possibility of choices.
Another thing that links Pippin's theft of the palantir to the behaviour of Feanor & Sons: the idea that it is too late to go back. When Pippin has stolen teh palantir from the sleeping Gandalf and swapped it for a stone, there is a close-call moment:


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‘You idiotic fool!’ Pippin muttered to himself. ‘You’re going to get yourself into frightful trouble. Put it back quick!’ But he found now that his knees quaked, and he did not dare to go near enough to the wizard to reach the bundle. ‘I’ll never get it back now without waking him,’ he thought, ‘not till I’m a bit calmer. So I may as well have a look first.'


The option of waking Gandalf to ask for help and forgiveness is of course ignored.
Similarly, The Sons of Feanor seem to think there is no going back on the Oath, no matter how much they (say they) don't want to do what it requires. Maybe they are right. Or maybe the option of refusing to fulfill the oath and asking for forgiveness exists? (There is, most likely, no way of knowing that!)

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Sun, 5:50pm

Post #48 of 54 (712 views)
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"You knew you were behaving wrongly and foolishly; and you told yourself so, though you did not listen." [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the great lines.Smile



Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Sun, 5:53pm

Post #49 of 54 (711 views)
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"You knew you were behaving wrongly and foolishly; and you told yourself so, though you did not listen." [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the great lines.Smile



No One in Particular
Menegroth


Sun, 11:24pm

Post #50 of 54 (628 views)
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Feanor vs Pippin-Death Battle! Or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would call attention to Feanor's vision at the time of his death. He could see in that moment the oath was vain, but rather than having regret or remorse over his deeds, he doubles down with the younguns, calling for them to fully commit themselves to a doomed cause that has already caused untold slaughter and grief. Pippin had the good sense to realize he had done something bad and course-correct.

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph

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