What did you call me/That's what they used to call me

[Loresilme]

Hi TORnMovieSibs [sly],
There are still things I notice for the first time no matter how many times I watch the films.
The particular shot of Gandalf I was looking for is not in the Image Library, so I chose the next best one, but there's a moment where his expression is just like Smeagol/Gollum's.

Frodo: You were not so very different from a hobbit once, were you... Sméagol?
Gollum: What did you call me?
Frodo: That was your name once, wasn’t it? A long time ago.
Gollum: My name... My name... S... S...Sméagol…

Gandalf: I've been sent back until my task is done.
Aragorn: Gandalf!
Gandalf: Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
Gandalf: I am Gandalf the White.


Maybe others noticed this right away, but for some reason I never picked up on the similarities, and the contrasts, between what's going on in both scenes. Not that I know exactly what to make of it [sly]. Just thought I'd mention it. Maybe folks here have some insights to share... what do you think?

Cheers [heart]!

 

[M&M]

It really does it look similar, though I've never noticed myself until now. But if Peter Jackson is/was trying to make some sort of connection between Gandalf and Gollum, then that's just weird.....[unsure]

 

[One Ringer]

Just lastnight I was watching Star Trek Nemesis, and found the contrast between Picard and Data dealing with their doubles (or Nemeses you could say) rather interesting. I don't think I ever really picked up on this before, though I'm sure it plays a key role in this story. On both sides we have a new face from an iconic memory. Thanks for pointing it out. []

 

[FarFromHome]

That's an interesting parallel you found! Both Smeagol and Gandalf seem to wake to a lost part of themselves when they recognize their old, forgotten name. It's as if hearing their name spoken aloud gives them an awareness of another part of themselves that they had lost sight of. It's in these moments, after all, that each of them gains a second identity - Gollum becomes Smeagol, and Gandalf the Grey becomes the White. Two moments of transformation! Did the filmmakers do this deliberately, I wonder? Or are the two actors independently choosing similar ways of expressing that sense of realization and transformation?

 

[frederica bolger]

... I can't find the correct quote but he says somewhere in "Postscript to the Name of the Rose" that sometimes texts throw up interesting parallels out of serendipity, and described how, by moving a chapter of 'The Name of the Rose" for plot reasons, two different discussions about purity that were not initially meant to be linked suddenly echoed each other. This may have happened here...

Well anyway, I wondered about this myself as I read discussions on this scene and how Gandalf seems to be not aware of his name even after meeting the Hobbits! Again, I believe this was not on purpose, but forgetting and remembering who you are seem to be very crucial to LOTR both in book and film: ('You were a man or Rohan once' 'And I forgot the taste of bread, and the softness of the wind in the trees' 'No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark')

So, I think that Gandalf did not remember his name, because it was not his 'real' name, and he returned from the spiritual world where his body, human name, etc. were stripped away. However, Smeagol, I think, at least movie-Smeagol, forgets his name because he loses his humanity due to loneliness, the murder he has done and the influence of the Ring. Then, Frodo gives it back to him by offering him companionship, and his name. I always found this scene very moving indeed.

 

[Darkstone]

Yes, a very major theme in Tolkien.

I'm glad the filmmakers picked up on this.

 

[Loresilme]

and then all of a sudden it jumped out so much that I couldn't believe I never noticed it before! Just not sure if it was coincidental or was intended to mean something. I guess the only similarity between Gollum and Gandalf I would make would be they both changed completely, although in different ways.

 

[Loresilme]

LOTR and ST ... after so much familiarity with the stories and scenes, you can still find something unexpectedly, something meaningful that you never noticed before!

 

[Loresilme]

That's an interesting point! That it's when they hear someone else speak the name, that is when they remember and when it becomes valid for them. It is in relation to others. That's when they have the 'aha, yes' moment.

Then in Gandalf's case, he at that moment, gives himself a new name. Gollum goes back to using a name he had before, he recovers an identity. But although Gandalf remembers his old name when hearing it aloud, he is empowered, within himself, to then give himself a new name.

That leads me into thinking about how mostly everyone is given a name, by someone else. Parents name you, you get nicknames from friends, etc. In contrast to the idea of a person deciding for themselves, what they want their name to be, and the sense of self-empowerment that entails. Often when people change their names they find it very difficult to get people who already know them, to use the new name. One could say it's just habit, but in another sense, could it be the other person not wanting to give up their power in relation to you, their ability to say, I know your identity and it's 'this' and I'm not going to let you change it.

 

[Loresilme]

Serendipity . I love that word ;-).

There does seem to be a common theme of forgetting and remembering one's identity among a number of characters. Perhaps this is in relation to the idea of a quest, a journey, and that each of them loses or gains something along the way. Some of them not so much, others to the point of losing themselves entirely. And there are those moments when someone reaches out to them, offering a forgiving heart and a way back. And sadly not all of them can come back.

 

[Loresilme]

Gollum goes back to using an older name for himself that was given to him, but Gandalf acknowledges his old name and then gives himself a new name. Did Tom Bombadil name himself? How did Smeagol come to be called Gollum? Was that given to him (by someone hearing the sound) or did he name himself? All those names for Aragorn, were they given to him by someone else or did he create them for himself ... everything in ME is given a name, from people to swords. But it's interesting to note the times in LOTR (and The Silmarillion) when a character decides to give himself a new name. It seems to be at the moment when they feel completely alone, when they've gone somewhere (figuratively or literally) where no one else has gone, that is when they name themselves.