Was Saruman aware of the Fellowships plan?
- Thread starter Wardogz
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sador
Half-elven
I would guess Saruman, like Sauron, expected the Ring to be used as a weapon to destroy the Dark Lord.
Of course, as he knew Gandalf and Elrond personally, he might have known better - but it seems highly unlikely.
Up to the breaking of the Fellowship on Amon Hen (where Saruman lost track of the Ringbearer) - the Fellowship followed the road to Minas Tirith, so Saruman could guess wrong and still trace their route for a long way.
And my supposition that Saruman did not know is shared by Gandalf, as he explained Saruman's doubts in The White Rider. Of course Gandalf could have been wrong, but I see no reason to suppose so in this case; in fact, a major theme of the book is that the forces of Evil could never guess the Ring would be actually refused, and if Saruman guessed that it would ruin the whole story.
Of course, as he knew Gandalf and Elrond personally, he might have known better - but it seems highly unlikely.
Up to the breaking of the Fellowship on Amon Hen (where Saruman lost track of the Ringbearer) - the Fellowship followed the road to Minas Tirith, so Saruman could guess wrong and still trace their route for a long way.
And my supposition that Saruman did not know is shared by Gandalf, as he explained Saruman's doubts in The White Rider. Of course Gandalf could have been wrong, but I see no reason to suppose so in this case; in fact, a major theme of the book is that the forces of Evil could never guess the Ring would be actually refused, and if Saruman guessed that it would ruin the whole story.
entmaiden
Super Moderator
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf talked about how he held back from confiding in Saruman (this was before he was imprisoned), and that he wasn't sure why. It was a huge risk to send the Fellowship, but the risk was somewhat mitigated by Elrond and Gandalf's knowledge of Saruman and Sauron. Under the influence of the lure of the Ring, Saruman and Sauron would have expected Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel to build their own army and challenge Sauron. They never would have considered that the Ring would be destroyed.
In the movie, Saruman learns from Gandalf that the Ring had been found (he doesn't know this in the book), but he doesn't learn of the forming of the Fellowship. The Fellowship was formed at the Council of Elrond, which happened after Gandalf had escaped from Orthanc, and of course after that point, Gandalf and Saruman weren't exactly on speaking terms. [
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In the movie, Saruman learns from Gandalf that the Ring had been found (he doesn't know this in the book), but he doesn't learn of the forming of the Fellowship. The Fellowship was formed at the Council of Elrond, which happened after Gandalf had escaped from Orthanc, and of course after that point, Gandalf and Saruman weren't exactly on speaking terms. [
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Saruman never figured anyone would plot to destroy the Ring. He wanted the Ring for himself and had his own little plot going against Sauron whilst pretending to be in league with him. Saruman was hoping to find it even as Bilbo discovered it in The Hobbit as he tried to steer the White Council away from looking for it.
Saruman messed up. He thought he could fool them all... Wizards, Elves, and Men... as he planned to become the dominant power in Middle-earth himself. Guilty/manipulative people always assume everyone else would behave as they do.
Saruman messed up. He thought he could fool them all... Wizards, Elves, and Men... as he planned to become the dominant power in Middle-earth himself. Guilty/manipulative people always assume everyone else would behave as they do.
weaver
Half-elven
Glad you wandered in -- make yourself at home!
On the Saruman question, it's inferred that Saruman knows the path, or at least the general direction they are taking, without showing us how exactly he's tracking them at every point...but just knowing that would not be enough for him to guess their intentions.
What I always wonder, in film verse, is how Gollum finds Sam and Frodo in Mordor; in the TE, there's no shot of him after the Fellowship leaves Moria, but I guess most people just accept that Gollum was caught up with tracking the Ring...
On the Saruman question, it's inferred that Saruman knows the path, or at least the general direction they are taking, without showing us how exactly he's tracking them at every point...but just knowing that would not be enough for him to guess their intentions.
What I always wonder, in film verse, is how Gollum finds Sam and Frodo in Mordor; in the TE, there's no shot of him after the Fellowship leaves Moria, but I guess most people just accept that Gollum was caught up with tracking the Ring...
weaver
Half-elven
For the casual movie goer, who only saw the theatrical versions, Gollum is AWOL after that one brief shot of him in Moria until he shows up at the start of TTT.
But of course, a whole year had gone by for people when these first came out -- so probably no one ever questioned it...
But of course, a whole year had gone by for people when these first came out -- so probably no one ever questioned it...
mae govannen
Tol Eressea
scenes without which the TEs suffer from a lack of continuity. Good that the general public usually didn't notice!... [sly]
FarFromHome
Valinor
... I think it's also quite acceptable by the conventions of mysterious, scary creatures like Gollum that they pop up unexpectedly without you knowing how they got there - in fact it's pretty much the convention that their sudden appearance should be unexplained!
For the casual viewer, I would think that the single memory of seeing Gollum appear so mysteriously in Moria would leave them willing to believe it could (and probably will) happen again.
I have read that it's quite common in filmmaking to film scenes that spell out details of backstory etc, and then to cut them out of the movie - it helps the actors to see the whole story and allow that knowledge to come through in their performance, but it's considered better storytelling to leave out the details and let the audience make their own connections.
I think that's one of the things you can see happening with the EE's - this is the backstory that readers are aware of, and that is part of the hidden backbone of the movie story too, but the TE tends to hide this underlying structure from view.
For the casual viewer, I would think that the single memory of seeing Gollum appear so mysteriously in Moria would leave them willing to believe it could (and probably will) happen again.
I have read that it's quite common in filmmaking to film scenes that spell out details of backstory etc, and then to cut them out of the movie - it helps the actors to see the whole story and allow that knowledge to come through in their performance, but it's considered better storytelling to leave out the details and let the audience make their own connections.
I think that's one of the things you can see happening with the EE's - this is the backstory that readers are aware of, and that is part of the hidden backbone of the movie story too, but the TE tends to hide this underlying structure from view.
weaver
Half-elven
My husband has never read the books, and now that I think about it, while he's questioned some of the things in the films, he's never once asked "where the heck did Gollum" come from?
I think he just thought it was kind of cool when he showed up and became a bigger part of the story...the stage was well set, in FOTR, for introducing Gollum in TTT, for non-readers -- there's enough references to the character so that he can just "show up" in TTT without people wondering who the heck he is...but since we've only had hints about him so far, people's curiousity is aroused, and their imaginations primed to accept and take an interest in this twisted little guy when he arrives.
I think he just thought it was kind of cool when he showed up and became a bigger part of the story...the stage was well set, in FOTR, for introducing Gollum in TTT, for non-readers -- there's enough references to the character so that he can just "show up" in TTT without people wondering who the heck he is...but since we've only had hints about him so far, people's curiousity is aroused, and their imaginations primed to accept and take an interest in this twisted little guy when he arrives.
He sent the crows/spies after them, and indeed his Orcs-Uruk Hai are a part of the large Orc gang that takes Pippin and Merry to Isengard. They even overrule the weak Mordor rabble (good thing they're eliminated by the Rohan riders otherwise Sauron would quickly learn Saruman's real plan) that obviously wants to take the hobbits straight to Mordor.
Why not tell Sauron ? Because he wants the Ring.
Why not tell Sauron ? Because he wants the Ring.
weathertop
Rohan
even whilst reading the books.
there was no way for him to follow the fellowship thru the gate as the watcher destroyed it on their heels. did he find some other way in? were there secreted crags the orcs used to venture forth? or were there only the two main gates, maybe a couple openings on the tops for lookouts?
there was no way for him to follow the fellowship thru the gate as the watcher destroyed it on their heels. did he find some other way in? were there secreted crags the orcs used to venture forth? or were there only the two main gates, maybe a couple openings on the tops for lookouts?
FarFromHome
Valinor
the implication is that Gollum was lurking in Moria before the Fellowship came - it being the kind of place he might feel at home - and only started to follow them from there. I suppose there may have been a number of small cracks that he could have used to get in - even those shafts that let in the light might be enough for him, since we know he can climb down sheer rock headfirst.
In the movie, Gandalf says at the start of the journey through Moria that it will take four days. Then later he tells Frodo that Gollum has been following them for three days. So it looks as if Gollum did pick up the trail of the Fellowship in Moria, within a day or so of their entering.
In the movie, Gandalf says at the start of the journey through Moria that it will take four days. Then later he tells Frodo that Gollum has been following them for three days. So it looks as if Gollum did pick up the trail of the Fellowship in Moria, within a day or so of their entering.
FarFromHome
Valinor
I don't think anyone has said much about what Saruman thought the Fellowship were actually planning to do. There is a scene (probably in the EE, I'm not sure) where he learns that Gandalf "thinks he has found Isildur's heir". So that probably means that he thinks Gandalf and Aragorn are going to Minas Tirith to try to put Aragorn on the throne of Gondor - using the Ring to enforce his claim.