Trying to relax and be calm, but I can't shake off these Dol Guldur concerns. They could make a mess of Gandalf, the cannon and his storyline if

AinurOlorin

AinurOlorin

Half-elven
they don't handle it AND him with proper care and respect. (I posted on it a while back, but things have moved along, and its somewhere on page 5 by now).

We know Gandalf in these films will be facing some of his greatest challanges... but the fellow who won out against a Balrog should be shown as very formidable, and the tactician of all folk of Good Will, also needs to be shown as foreward thinking.

Bottom line? He needs to have a plan for getting himself out of Dol Guldur, even if Radagast helps. And, very importantly, between the pair of them, he needs to escape IN this movie. It would be ridiculous, not to mention severly diminishing, to have him caged in this film, only to have to be freed by The Council in the next film and turn around and get knocked the hell out, or worse still to not even be a part of the active assault on the Necromancer and his lair... WHAT? It is Gandalf who escapes and alerts The Council of their Peril, and he is definitely active in the ousting of Sauron from Dol Guldur WITH the council. If those things are changed, it will be abominable.

If they aren't careful they will make him look like he cannot get out of any supernatural fix on his own, AND completely alter the true story in the process. Gandalf, even as the Gray, was a Power, and a very competent effective one. The sentiment audiences have in Fellowship, both at Isengard and in Moria, should be just like those of Frodo and the Fellowship, Faramir and even Celeborn, "What! Gandalf was captured! Oh man. This is serious trouble." "Oh no! Gandalf was lost?! What a dreadful foe it was who claimed him!" It cannot and SHOULD not ever be, "oh... I bet he's going ta get his ass kicked again. He handles all right with orcs and whatnot, but anytime a villain with any magic shows up, he gets beaten to the ground."


We will see plenty of him coming up short against Saruman in Fellowship. We DON'T need to see him fall just as short against Sauron's wraiths. Against Sauron himself, yes, but not ANY of his minions, none of whom (the minions) were as mighty as the Balrog, whose power and terror and status as a villain of dread would also be diminished by default if the Wizard who vanquished him cannot hold his own with any other supernatural menace.

These films should not converge to convey a notion that Gandalf the Gray was the least among the Wise and couldn't get himself out of a tight spot. It is important, also for the sake of being true to the story, that HE escape and warn the council. With Radagast's help is fine, but he still needs to escape, largely on his own power, and take word back to the rest of The Wise. Can you imagine him sitting in a cage until they show up, IN STARK CONTRAST AND DEFIANCE TO THE NOVEL AND APPENDECIES, amd then being freed only to get knocked out? Or sitting out the entire battle against Sauron? Dear God, I hope those worst case scenario do NOT come to pass.
 
But Peter Jackson really could do anything with Gandalf. Nothing is out of the question when you no longer respect the source material...

One thing I will take issue with is the notion that Gandalf must best certain enemies based on the fact that he beat the Balrog. Some of the best "fighters" in the world have lost to guys they were much better than because they underestimated them or simply had a bad day...or a lucky punch.

Remember Saruman was killed by Wormtongue in these films.
 
They do respect Gandalf - and Tolkien - but they have their own way of telling the story which won't always be your way.

Seems to me that the Balrog is totally irrelevant at this point. This Gandalf has not yet faced the Balrog. If you could step into the story now and ask him how he would fare against one I have no doubt that he would tell you he didn't know. Every trial has to be faced in its own time and in its own circumstances, for him as for every other character, and the most powerful can be brought down by the smallest - even Goliath was felled by a well-aimed stone. Gandalf is formidable (in the films as well as the books) but that isn't the same as being invincible.
 
Walking into a trap, forcing your reluctant friends and allies to get involved in order to rescue you, is forward planning, and high level stratigic thinking. Gandalf manipulates Galadriel and Elrond - who knew?

It had to be Gandalf to go up against the Balrog because the Balrog was a spiritual opponent, and needed to be fought as a spirit. Against purely physical opponents, Gandalf isn't any stronger than the heroes of men. Bard kills Smaug, not Gandalf. The Balrog isn't stronger than the dragon, nor is it weaker, it is just a different type of enemy.
 
I know its not in the lore, but still. The Balrog and Gandalf are of the same class of Maiar, and so they were both equally matched. (how I have always seen it.) However, the reason why it is not wholly "ridiculous" for Gandalf to face his biggest challenges in Dol guldur is simple. Sauron is a much higher and powerful Maiar then Gandalf (Byfar!) and the Durins Bane. Sauron is an excellent tactitian, so I can easily see Gandalf falling into one of his many traps. Besides, im still 100% certain, that Jackson will give Gandalf and Sauron a one on one face off, and this will umltimateley prove that Sauron is higher than he is. Please don't hate me on this AinurOlorin, I know you are passionate on this subject [:)]
 
Is that he is lesser than Galadriel! She is only an elf, He is a God! She even out speaks Saruman, who at the time, was THE most powerful goodie in middle earth at the time. This is the one thing I don't like about the hobbit. everything else is good, except Galadriel being more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman. NOT ON!
 
And you know very well what I mean regarding the Balrog. Of course there could be no knowing before hand. Against some I have not yet been tested, indeed and etc.

HOWEVER. The test did come, and however marginally we know the victor. Who among The Nine could claim such history and power as the Balrog, who captained hordes and made war upon High-Elves ere Elros, first of the Numenorean kings was born? They feared a lesser variant of the very fire his shadow form was wreathed in. Pfah!

And, while I understand your logic and agree with it (the Witch-King felled by a young sheild-maid and a hobbit, as he was), you know very well that it will not come across as some fluke if the Nazgul are shown to (and I desprately hope they are not) over power the Wizard. If there is a test of power, and he is trumped in it by them, several things happen. A) it will mean he essentially loses EVERY supernatural battle he encoutners in these films as the Gray, very innaccurately suggesting his power to be least of all the encountered powers (not his appearance or demeanor, which should seem humble, but his actual force when in a pinch, which is a WHOLLY different matter). B) It diminishes (or would diminish) the perception of him. As said above, no one will feel, as Faramir felt, deeply troubled and alarmed, "that one of such wisdom, and of power," should fall. They will merely shake their heads and think, "ummf, Gandalf's about to take yet another beat down,". And, yes, it would diminish the power and terror of The Balrog who ends up, if it were to play out this way, defeated by the figure who could not handle the Nazgul (despite Radagast and even Aragorn managing against them) [crazy][crazy][crazy][mad][mad][mad][mad][mad][mad][mad][mad] (And here I was ENJOYING my newly purchased Extended Edition DVDs.... dammit [mad] lol).

It isn't about being invincible. I fully expect and approve him being defeated and forced to flee by Sauron (yes, he still needs to escape, otherwise the entire through line of the actual story, wherein HE is the one who enters and escapes Dol Guldur and warns the council, one of his greatest feats (made alot less great if he gets imprisoned and they have to rescue him! [mad][pirate][mad] ), what I don't want is for him to come up short in EVERY test of Wizardry against sorcery that we see him involved with, including against the Nazgul. That would make him seem a damned sight less formidable in magic, forget about invincibility.

They do respect Gandalf - and Tolkien - but they have their own way of telling the story which won't always be your way.

Seems to me that the Balrog is totally irrelevant at this point. This Gandalf has not yet faced the Balrog. If you could step into the story now and ask him how he would fare against one I have no doubt that he would tell you he didn't know. Every trial has to be faced in its own time and in its own circumstances, for him as for every other character, and the most powerful can be brought down by the smallest - even Goliath was felled by a well-aimed stone. Gandalf is formidable (in the films as well as the books) but that isn't the same as being invincible.
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in the book attest. Like the Elves (Felagund comes most to mind) it seems the Wizards also have a greater physical strength than the average man, though not insanely so. But that is another matter.

Yes, the Balrog's potent magical nature made him virtually unassailable by ordinary weapons, foes and means. Yet, the point is that if some of the Nazgul, rather than Sauron, best Gandalf in SORCERY, it sends a very strong and problematic message. It will speak to their relative spiritual strengths, in a way that reflects very poorly and inaccurately upon Gandalf. Why can we not just get the equivalent of the Amon Sul scene, with Sauron as the tiebreaker and deal breaker.

And the escape, if mishandled, turns one of his great feats in the actual tale into a damned boondacle debacle. I need a drink.
Walking into a trap, forcing your reluctant friends and allies to get involved in order to rescue you, is forward planning, and high level stratigic thinking. Gandalf manipulates Galadriel and Elrond - who knew?

It had to be Gandalf to go up against the Balrog because the Balrog was a spiritual opponent, and needed to be fought as a spirit. Against purely physical opponents, Gandalf isn't any stronger than the heroes of men. Bard kills Smaug, not Gandalf. The Balrog isn't stronger than the dragon, nor is it weaker, it is just a different type of enemy.
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But I will leave it there, all my posts regarding how I fell Dol Guldur could play out nicely or how I think the whole Galadriel thing is not that big of a deal can be read in the older threads ;)
 
even absent his great Ring. The Balrogs, of all Melkor's named servants, were second in power, in sorcery and in arms, only to Sauron, and in the terror the Elves, even the Calaquendi held them in. How much greater and in what ways... too long an inquiry with too much assumption and supposition required. I think his brilliance, artisan skill, and his seductive abilities played heavily into his greatness, but I digress.

I don't have a problem with (if he is shown putting on a good defense and routing orcs and wraiths first) our Wizard being defeated by Sauron. That is only proper. I want only that he should manage to free himself from whateve mess he ends up in, even if at some point Radagast does some assist in the last stages of the escape (rather like Sam and Frodo's combined will aiding the Phail of Galadriel) in overcoming The Watchers.

Nah, I don't hate ya. lol. And at least your reasoning doesn't come across as contortionist defense of anything the writers should choose to do. I am not pointing to anyone in this particular thread, but i swear there are some fans who would make an acceptance and excuse for Tauriel killing Smaug, Azog beating up Saruman and Gollum capturing and making a personal slave of Thranduil [shocked] .
I know its not in the lore, but still. The Balrog and Gandalf are of the same class of Maiar, and so they were both equally matched. (how I have always seen it.) However, the reason why it is not wholly "ridiculous" for Gandalf to face his biggest challenges in Dol guldur is simple. Sauron is a much higher and powerful Maiar then Gandalf (Byfar!) and the Durins Bane. Sauron is an excellent tactitian, so I can easily see Gandalf falling into one of his many traps. Besides, im still 100% certain, that Jackson will give Gandalf and Sauron a one on one face off, and this will umltimateley prove that Sauron is higher than he is. Please don't hate me on this AinurOlorin, I know you are passionate on this subject [:)]
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At the end of DOS Gandalf will be beaten bloody by orcs and locked in a cage with no hope then in TABA we will see Galadriel (the more powerfull being) come to his aid and succeed where Gandalf failed.

This is Galadriel's time to shine [heart]
 
They are much more likely to play it as a contest of powers, with one side coming up lacking. That is my concern, save where Sauron is involved himself.
But Peter Jackson really could do anything with Gandalf. Nothing is out of the question when you no longer respect the source material...

One thing I will take issue with is the notion that Gandalf must best certain enemies based on the fact that he beat the Balrog. Some of the best "fighters" in the world have lost to guys they were much better than because they underestimated them or simply had a bad day...or a lucky punch.

Remember Saruman was killed by Wormtongue in these films.
Click to expand...
 
lol[tongue]
At the end of DOS Gandalf will be beaten bloody by orcs and locked in a cage with no hope then in TABA we will see Galadriel (the more powerfull being) come to his aid and succeed where Gandalf failed.

This is Galadriel's time to shine [heart]
Click to expand...
 
agree that Galadriel should be represented as very powerful, but not explicitly more powerful than any of the Wizards... but I can't even make that my main focus right now, or things will veer too far off from my main concern of how Gandalf is handled in Dol Guldur in general. However, yes, it would be freakin awful if he is made to look entirely unable to handle himself, and she comes in and wipes out every foe without breaking a sweat. That might make me renounce the rest of the series, which I'd hate, because I have really loved around 79 to 90% of what I have gotten.
Is that he is lesser than Galadriel! She is only an elf, He is a God! She even out speaks Saruman, who at the time, was THE most powerful goodie in middle earth at the time. This is the one thing I don't like about the hobbit. everything else is good, except Galadriel being more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman. NOT ON!
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... I believe (have no evidence for it, but not for the contary as well) that Gandalf might be the one to do the ultimate deed that will lead to Sauron's retreat (for now). But that this will take so much power that he needs the help of his peers afterwards.

I think that would be a nice way to give Gandalf his due and still make the White Council a memorable and important institution.

I might also add that I could see that his imprisonment (if it happens) might happen because of his and Radagast's surprise that it is not just the Nazgul (which they should know after the High Fells) but also Sauron. They were maybe prepared to take on the Witchking, but when the powers of the Nine are joined and enhanced via the presence of their Master that would be a whole different matter they simply did not expect.
 
It looks like it will go like this.

Film 1 has the White Council scene, with Saruman wanting to stop all action, Elrond and Galadriel indecisive and Gandalf the only one acting and seeing the real danger.

He and Radagast journey to the High Fells and find that the tombs have been opened from the inside out, despite powerful spells holding him. We know from the WETA book that The Nazgul are unleashed. This means they will probably be at Dol Guldur, otherwise the whole point about their open coffins is useless. So they will feature, and it was probably the Necromancer who released them.

We also know from Boyens that Gandalf finds out by the First Act of DOS who the Necromancer is.

So Gandalf and Radagast go to Dol Guldur. However it seems that at some point Radagast is either:

a) Killed
b) Lost
c) Has withdrawn

Because we see some scenes in which Gandalf is journeying through DG alone.
We also see that he is in a cage in the 3rd trailer.

We also know from the AUJ EE commentaries that we will find out at the start of the third film why he has a new staff. Radagast's staff. McCoy spoke about this in interviews this year as well. Something happens to Radagast, we don't know what. But Boyens and Jackson say we will see the start of how that comes out at the end of DoS.

This means the Dol Guldur battle probably doesn't end in DoS. The other council members need time to come to Dol Guldur. The fact that Gandalf is caged suggests that he will indeed be made a captive and that he, together with the Council, will try to overthrow Sauron in film 3. Hopefully he will be able to show his powers, but for now it seems he will be vanquished in DoS.

This could turn out badly, I agree. But if he is vanquished by Sauron himself, even though in his Necromancer form, that may not be too bad, and acceptable. But not it happens through Orcs or mere Nazgul, that would be abominable.

But they need to have a reason to have the White Council come in force to DG, and it seems that does not happen in the second film. The Dol Guldur battle lego sets shows clearly that Gandalf and Radagast will at some point fight Azor, Gundabad Orcs, and Sauron. I expect they will lose this battle, and end up on the torture rack we saw concept pics of last week.
 
Gandalf makes short work of the goblin king, which would put his physical power at least as good as many mortal warriors.

But a dragon is beyond him, and the strongest orc heroes can match him.
 
The image and caption on this scan would suggest that Gandalf does indeed escape Dol Guldur with Radagast:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86158434@N02/10723924153/

It remains to be seen if it does happen, but it's something at least.
 
... it looks like Radagast and Gandalf will meet up again after some time in Dol Guldur (maybe they get seperated at some point but then meet again) and leave together... so maybe Radagast won't die after all and the cliffhanger won't be as extreme, with them having left the fortress on the way to gather the force of the WC in order to return before it is too late.

I also remember a scene from one of the vlogs in which we could see Gandalf being let by Thrain through Dol Duldur (it did not really look like a chase, rather Gandalf following him).

I guess Thrain might help Gandalf understand what is going on.
 
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