The White Rider: 3 - Tell me the tale

[dormouse]

Reading from 'What do you wish to know'? to '... 'his head bowed in thought'

Now reunited, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli sit down to exchange news and the rest of this chapter - all save the very last section - is a recap of events from Moria to Fangorn, adding background details and explanations, some of which readers might have guessed along the way, some perhaps not. It's an unusual device, having so long a passage with no action at all. Budding writers might be warned against constructing a story in this way but it's a device Tolkien is rather fond of, so I suppose the first question must be

Is this chapter an effective means of holding the various threads of the story together and enlarging the reader's understanding? Does it work for you?

First we learn with Aragorn and the others that they were not alone, even when they thought they were; Gandalf was watching them, through Gwaihir. When Frodo was in real danger, on Amon Hen, Gandalf came between him and the Eye - the 'Voice' in Frodo's mind ("Take it off! Fool, take it off") must therefore have been his.

The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally? Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?
Looking back at the Amon Hen scene in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship' with this insight, any comments on the way Gandalf helps Frodo?

I like the fact that for all his power, Gandalf is not aware that Sam is with Frodo - he needs the others to tell him that. I think by placing limits on Gandalf's power Tolkien has left a space in with the others can complement him - I just can't see a way to frame it as a question!

The conversation moves on to Boromir and we learn that Galadriel and Gandalf discussed the danger he faced; also there is a sense of an overarching purpose in the part Pippin and Merry played in his story.

Once again, Gandalf describes what happened as an escape: first the Ring escaped, now Boromir escaped - any thoughts on this?

Gandalf hints at the awakening of the Ents and when Aragorn asks for an explanation he launches into an account of the state of play between Sauron and Saruman: their understanding of the current state of affairs and the strategies they're likely to pursue: most of all, the things they don't know which will come back to bite them.

How well does he understand his enemies?

Of Saruman he says, 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and spy on his messengers. But he came too late. . ." - does this finally explain the old man in the firelight? Before he can start to tell the others about treebeard and the Ents, Gimli interrupts with his question about the old man and Gandalf confirms that it was Saruman.

Now we come to the Ents, and both Aragorn and Legolas have heard of them.

Why has Legolas not heard of Treebeard himself? (And do you think a song of the Onodrim might be more interesting than 'Tra-la-la-lalley' ;-) )?

Finally for today, in response to the paragraph about various dangers,

How dangerous is Gandalf?

 

[CuriousG]

So he makes a comeback (from the dead) and gets to dominate the story. But I don't fault it and enjoy this chapter.

Is this chapter an effective means of holding the various threads of the story together and enlarging the reader's understanding? Does it work for you?
Yes. I think things have been pretty micro for quite a long time. Gandalf, as usual, puts things back in the macro perspective to remind us what's at stake and what unifies the diverse plot lines. Plus I just plain like Gandalf and enjoy whatever he does or says.

The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally? Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?
I take the "high place" literally, though it's not at all clear where it could be.

The nature and source of Gandalf's power always baffles me and seems hard to nail down. I would venture that Narya played a part in giving him the power he needed, but especially because New Gandalf is so much more powerful than the old one, I'd say it was mostly his enhanced status that enabled him to wrestle Sauron to the mat.

Looking back at the Amon Hen scene in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship' with this insight, any comments on the way Gandalf helps Frodo?
It's interesting that Gandalf is somehow looking out for Frodo from a distance. Or maybe it was just Frodo putting on the Ring that alerted Gandalf, via Narya, what he had done. It says something about Sauron's power that even at a great distance from Barad-dur, Gandalf wasn't really a match for him. I say this in the sense that Gandalf was drained by the conflict, whereas I find it hard to believe that Sauron was.

How did Gandalf help Frodo? Good question. We do see especially later, after Aragorn's wedding and the Wise traveling north, that the Wise can sit around a campfire and communicate telepathically as much as they want. So I'd say it was a telepathic battle between Gandalf and Sauron that took place in Frodo's mind. But to label it that way makes it sound like sci-fi, not fantasy. That's probably not such a big issue, however, since I think witches and wizards in the real world were accused of reading minds at times.

I like the fact that for all his power, Gandalf is not aware that Sam is with Frodo...
I agree. An all-powerful Gandalf would lessen the sense we have that Sauron is still the greater power and fighting him is an uphill battle. If Gandalf were omnipotent and omniscient, we'd know the ultimate outcome and be bored. Keeping us in doubt keeps us reading. Tolkien is manipulative in a good way. [] And yes, if Gandalf could do it all and know it all, the others would just be like movie "extras" with no real part to play. JRR always wants the struggle against Sauron to be a group effort, no matter how powerful any one individual is. I think that's part of his mass appeal. Most of us would like to think we matter in the scheme of things, and that we could play a significant role in a mass group seeking to achieve something great. I guess I'm thinking of the Egyptian man/woman on the street that we've seen the last 2 weeks. They must feel this way.

Once again, Gandalf describes what happened as an escape: first the Ring escaped, now Boromir escaped - any thoughts on this?
Hmmm. I'd say this is a coincidence of terms at first glance. Then again, there's a lot of "escaping" throughout the books, more escaping than confrontation and victory. Geez, I could go back to the beginning: in The Shire, Frodo escapes the Black Riders pursuing him several times. Bombadil helps them escape Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wight: the hobbits couldn't win in either situation. They escape (in a sense) the attempt to murder them in the Prancing Pony by avoiding their bedroom. Frodo did NOT escape the Nazgul attack on Weathertop, but next they escape the pursuit and he escapes again at the Ford (again, his weak confrontation at the Ford is futile). They fight the Watcher at the Moria lake without winning, and must escape. They fight on the other end of Moria without winning and must escape. Really, they never seem to win anything, and at best they just fight for a stalemate long enough to escape. So that continues to happen as Gandalf fights Sauron to a standstill so Frodo can escape both that peril and also to get across the Anduin.

Thanks for bringing this up!! I've never connected all these threads of the adventure before.

How well does he understand his enemies?
Perfectly, I would say. I would compare him to Galadriel when she tells Frodo she can perceive all of Sauron's mind as it pertains to the Elves. Gandalf seems even more perceptive since he has Saruman figured out too. He's especially good at knowing how they think and what motivates them. The entire Quest rides on Gandalf's firm belief that Sauron thinks everyone else is like him and will want the Ring to increase their power, so he'll never guess that any fool would want to destroy the dang thing. And Gandalf is right.

Why has Legolas not heard of Treebeard himself?
It is curious that he hasn't. In happier times in the past, there was more contact between different realms and races. Treebeard says the Elves taught the Ents to speak, so there should be a close tie between them, even if it's ancient. You'd think that Legolas would know more about Fangorn. Then again, it's probably my 21st century thinking that people travel or watch TV and know about other places.

How dangerous is Gandalf?
Interesting that Gandalf remains dangerous as an organizer behind the scenes. His role in the Helm's Deep conflict was to round up scattered soldiers and let Erkenbrand lead them in a relief attack, and he worked behind the scenes with the Ents and Huorns, never out in front, never splashing around fire blasts as Saruman did from Orthanc. I suppose he showed his power in breaking Saruman's staff in a direct act, but that's more of an exception. At Minas Tirith, he scared off the Nazgul pursuing the retreating soldiers, but he did not duel with the Witch-King.

And here I'll add that that's a big disappointment to me--I would have loved that! Even if it ended inconclusively and/or was interrupted. If only Pippin had arrived a few minutes later, we probably would have seen that at the Gate. And I've never found it that plausible that Gandalf felt obligated to stick around the Houses of Healing when the huge, decisive battle was being fought below. Really, if he'd stayed in the Houses and Gondor lost horribly, Mordor's forces would storm the city and kill or enslave everyone, including those in the Houses, so tactically, this was not a bright move on Gandalf's part. But as noted above, Tolkien was determined that Gandalf wasn't the champion who won every battle against Sauron, so he holds him back so others can be champions, even if it seems for a flimsy reason to me.

So how dangerous is he? I think when he makes that statement, we might think he's dangerous in a confrontational way, though his real danger is as an organizer.

 

[dormouse]

... looking back on it from this new perspective of the role Gandalf played, is that Gandalf takes on Sauron for Frodo's sake, he is able to enter the struggle in Frodo's mind and plant instructions there but even at that most critical juncture, when Frodo alone would surely have succumbed and the whole quest have fallen apart, he doesn't take over. Frodo still has a clear choice:

'Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so.'

It's another escape, if you will. Gandalf makes it possible for Frodo to escape but he doesn't rescue him - the choice is still Frodo's

I also really like the way Gandalf speaks about Boromir, with something approaching tenderness and a degree of concern which obviously stretches back to his own return to life. From what he says it's obvious that he has discussed Boromir with Galadriel and has tried and failed to find out what happened. There's something in that word 'escape' - it's not one you would think of immediately in describing what happened to Boromir but it comes as a nice counterpoint to the death scene. When Boromir says 'I failed' and Aragorn replies 'No. . . you have conquered. Few have gained such a victory' it's a much more predictable, warrior's language. But Gandalf says 'No. . . you escaped.' I like that.

 

[CuriousG]

looking back on it from this new perspective of the role Gandalf played, is that Gandalf takes on Sauron for Frodo's sake, he is able to enter the struggle in Frodo's mind and plant instructions there but even at that most critical juncture, when Frodo alone would surely have succumbed and the whole quest have fallen apart, he doesn't take over. Frodo still has a clear choice

I've read more than one person criticize Tolkien for trying to write a story of good vs evil but that there is supposedly no difference between the two sides since they both slaughter each other. I won't argue about the slaughtering, but there are more aspects to consider than that, and free will is one. Sauron is all about control. Gandalf, as you point out, will call Frodo a fool in his own mind and urge him to take off the Ring, but he doesn't force him to and lets Frodo make the ultimate decision.

It's a tribute to the character of both of them: Frodo does the right thing when his mind is free to do so, and Gandalf gives him the space to makes his own decisions, which most parenting books say is what parents are supposed to do when their kids grow up, and Gandalf does have a sort of paternal relationship with Frodo.

Just one point of difference between good and evil, of course, but a very profound one.

 

[Darkstone]

Is this chapter an effective means of holding the various threads of the story together and enlarging the reader's understanding?

Either that or it confuses the heck out of them.


Does it work for you?

I was still convinced that, like all the other Tolkien “deaths”, Boromir would show up all soggy with a starfish stuck to his, er, back.


The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally?

Does a Balrog have wings?


Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?

I’d say because of magic mushrooms.


Looking back at the Amon Hen scene in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship' with this insight, any comments on the way Gandalf helps Frodo?

He could’ve at least taken the opportunity to say something like “Don’t try the Black Gate or the Morgul Vale. There’s a third, safer way….”, but nooooo…


Once again, Gandalf describes what happened as an escape: first the Ring escaped, now Boromir escaped - any thoughts on this?

I would imagine that various episodes involving escape would indeed be a prime characteristic of escapist literature.


How well does he understand his enemies?

Better than they understand him. Wonder where he picked up a copy of Sun Tzu? Probably sent by one of the Blue Wizards.


Of Saruman he says, 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and spy on his messengers. But he came too late. . ." - does this finally explain the old man in the firelight?

Not really. You’d think he’d have taken the opportunity to blast them with a fireball. Or at least make all their fastenings come undone.


Why has Legolas not heard of Treebeard himself?

He always falls asleep before that part of the story.


(And do you think a song of the Onodrim might be more interesting than 'Tra-la-la-lalley' ;-) )?

But ‘Tra-la-la-lalley’ is just so *now*!


How dangerous is Gandalf?

Drunk or sober?

 

[PhantomS]

The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally? Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?
Looking back at the Amon Hen scene in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship' with this insight, any comments on the way Gandalf helps Frodo?

Gandalf would not use Narya openly against Sauron, though it could have emboldened him and given him strength passively. I can't think of anywhere in Lothlorien he could have sat , unless he climbed the tallest trees and sat on the highest flet.

Once again, Gandalf describes what happened as an escape: first the Ring escaped, now Boromir escaped - any thoughts on this?

Boromir did not die a fool bewitched by the ring, shot in the back or betrayed, unlike other ring-chasers/bearer

Of Saruman he says, 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and spy on his messengers. But he came too late. . ." - does this finally explain the old man in the firelight? Before he can start to tell the others about treebeard and the Ents, Gimli interrupts with his question about the old man and Gandalf confirms that it was Saruman.

If it was Saruman he could have tried to bewitch them with his Voice, but he ran away instead- not like the old days, one supposes.

Why has Legolas not heard of Treebeard himself? (And do you think a song of the Onodrim might be more interesting than 'Tra-la-la-lalley' ;-) )?

Treebeard once walked to Lothlorien and met the Lord there, but never to Mirkwood. If he's as old as Beleriand he might have walked in Doriath , but Legolas doesn't seem to be that old himself. How can Elves tell Ents apart anyway? Like Legolas Greenleaf, 'Treebeard of Fangorn' is the same name said in two different languages.

Finally for today, in response to the paragraph about various dangers,

How dangerous is Gandalf?

Gandalf himself says he is very dangerous, so we have to take his word for it.

 

[FarFromHome]

Is this chapter an effective means of holding the various threads of the story together and enlarging the reader's understanding? Does it work for you?

It feels to me more like a transition. There are a lot of things happening that aren't really well linked to the previous storyline, as everyone is repositioned for new adventures. And that applies most of all to Gandalf, whose movements since his return to life are only hinted at.

The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally?

I think the "high place" is most likely the Hill where Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard (and the Three Hunters meet Gandalf). Gandalf was certainly there soon after:

"[Treebeard] often comes here [the Hill], especially when his mind is uneasy, and rumours of the world outside trouble him. I saw him four days ago striding among the trees ... but I did not speak, for I was heavy with thought, and weary after my struggle with the Eye of Mordor..."
​

According to a note mentioned by NEB in the last discussion, this could fit with what Tolkien had in mind. But it would mean that Gandalf was in Fangorn before Merry and Pippin were even captured. The only way I can think of to account for this would be to assume that Gandalf had already decided not to rejoin the Fellowship and instead had decided to focus his own efforts on Saruman. It was luck (or, of course, fate) that brought Merry and Pippin, with Aragorn and company in their wake, in the same direction. But if that's the case, and he wasn't expecting to see Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli so soon, why did he bring messages (and such relevant messages) from Galadriel for them? We could go with the "magical" explanation that Galadriel and/or Gandalf had foreseen everything accurately. But that's not the way Tolkien normally works. The other possible explanation, though, could be the Eagle, who we know was taking a very close interest in affairs and could have been acting as a communication system between Gandalf and Lothlorien as all this geopolitical repositioning was playing out.

Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?

The other bearers of the Elven-rings seem to be constantly striving defensively against the Eye of Sauron, and their rings seem to help block the Eye's ability to fix onto them. So perhaps Gandalf's ring helps him in the same way. But I also think that the Seat of Seeing is playing a role here itself, making Frodo more visible both to Gandalf and to Sauron.

Of Saruman he says, 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and spy on his messengers. But he came too late. . ." - does this finally explain the old man in the firelight? Before he can start to tell the others about treebeard and the Ents, Gimli interrupts with his question about the old man and Gandalf confirms that it was Saruman.

Yes, I think that settles the question of the old man in the firelight. It was really Saruman and not a projection, despite Aragorn finding no trace. Usually Saruman is criticised for staying safe in his tower, while Gandalf exposes himself to the dangers of the world. Now we see that Saruman does come out sometimes, although only in secret, and only (according to Gandalf) to "spy" on his own messengers. I suppose we can also imagine that Saruman frightens the horses, but that Shadowfax, who is nearby, reassures them. Did Shadowfax go there because he'd also seen Saruman? Did he also mistake him at first for Gandalf? Or was it a simple coincidence? As far as I know, we never find out. But since it seems that Gandalf was in Fangorn by then, there must have been two White Wizards wandering around in the Forest that night...

 

[sador]

Is this chapter an effective means of holding the various threads of the story together and enlarging the reader's understanding?
Only if the author writes very well.
Judging by success, I guess Tolkien did a decent job.

Does it work for you?
Yes.

The struggle on Amon Hen was one between powers or minds; when Gandalf says he sat 'in a high place' does he mean literally?
I suppose so. Both Barad-dur and Amon Hen are pretty high.

Was he able to do this because of his Elven ring, or because of who and what he is?
I doubt that he would dare to use it; in The Palantir he is fearful of the possibilty that he would be revealed to Sauron, to say nothing of Narya itself!
But I suppose Gandalf himself is powerful enough do ambush Sauron (see my next reponse).

Looking back at the Amon Hen scene in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship' with this insight, any comments on the way Gandalf helps Frodo?
Based on The Palantir, I argue that Gandalf did not reveal himself or his full power to Sauron. I would see that more as diverting his focus, something like Merry backstabbing the Witch-king at the Pelennor Fields.

I like the fact that for all his power, Gandalf is not aware that Sam is with Frodo - he needs the others to tell him that. I think by placing limits on Gandalf's power Tolkien has left a space in with the others can complement him - I just can't see a way to frame it as a question!
"Many things that are near I cannot see".
But it is wierd, you know - after all, he must have realised that Sam was the only one of the Fellowship unaccounted-for!

Once again, Gandalf describes what happened as an escape: first the Ring escaped, now Boromir escaped - any thoughts on this?
To CuriousGs' excellent list I wuld add that Gandalf escaped the Nine on Weathertop.
And that his last words to the Fellowship were "Fly, you fools!".
Yes, as FarFromHome mentioned, this is an escapist novel. [tongue]

How well does he understand his enemies?
Well enough for us to never doubt him.
However, one thing bothers me. In one of his later letters, Tolkien expressed the opinion that even with the Ring, only Gandalf the White had a fighting chance against Sauron (and I suppose that includes Saruman as another option). Yet in this chapter he says that only the use of the Ring could grant surety of victory. This implies that he is not the only one, and that using the Ring would surely tip the scales (Gandalf also expresses a similar but less cocksure view in The Last Debate).
Any ideas how to resolve this contradiction? The easy way (sorry, squire) would be to say that Tolkien simply changed his mind and/or didn't remember Gandalf's analysis when he wrote his letter. I would personally prefer to think that Gandalf here was wrong, and too self-confident, or else that once the Ring is truly out of reach, he can indulge in the fantasies he had strongly guarded against before.
But is there any better internal resolution?

Of Saruman he says, 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and spy on his messengers. But he came too late. . ." - does this finally explain the old man in the firelight?
Yes.
Some have suggested that it was a projected image of Saruman, but Gandalf doesn't seem to think so.

Before he can start to tell the others about treebeard and the Ents, Gimli interrupts with his question about the old man and Gandalf confirms that it was Saruman.
It's nice that he doesn't silence him rudely, with a withering remark!

Why has Legolas not heard of Treebeard himself?
Why hasn't Bilbo heard of Thranduil?
He just knew that there was an Elvenking.

And do you think a song of the Onodrim might be more interesting than 'Tra-la-la-lalley' ;-)?
That's Rivendell.
I would ask whether it would be more interesting than the wood-elves' song as they rolled the barrels to the tunnel.

How dangerous is Gandalf?
Just look at what he did to Denthor!

Or to take another tack - more or less as dangerous as squire is intimidating.