The Uruk-hai part 3 chase to Fangorn forest

H

Hamfast Gamgee

Tol Eressea
Having decided upon there direction, the Uruk-Hai and the other Orcs make a dash to Isengard, knowing that the Riders of Rohan will soon be after them. Merry wakes up and makes a little joke about bed and breakfast.

1) Is there any other occasion when a Hobbit under extreme stress under the control of Orcs has made a joking comment about food?

The Orcs run on, even in sunlight.

2) Is this the way Orcs normally march when on a campaign? I have read that Goblins don't like the sunlight, but perhaps it doesn't affect them fatally in the same way it did Trolls for example. I suppose on conquests they had to travel more than one night's worth on occasions.

3) Pippin has visions of Strider following. He is torn between his own desire for rescue and the fact that he believes that this would be bad for the mission. Is he correct about this?

4) But Pippin is very resourceful here. And he uses a bit of quick thinking to give a sign to the potentially following Aragorn. Yet I haven't read too many comments about these deeds of Pippin who is often considered one of the lesser members of the fellowship.

5) The Orcs continue to dash to Isengard. But they see the Riders who catch up with them with great speed. One thing here that I note the Orcs for all their brutality lack. Cavalry. In fact, that is one thing I notice about the Uruk-hai. For all of the fact that they are a superior kind of Orc, one thing they can't do it appears is ride wolves. Wouldn't Wolves be a vital aid to them here? I wonder if this is some fatal flaw in their make-up as the northern Goblins can, though not here obviously.

6) Grishnakh. Oh, all right! He is an intelligent Orc as well. He can see Ugluk as a rebel and spots Saruman as one as well. He also, we find out later, has the presence of mind to send a message across to Sauron. But he is highly strung. He seems not to like been called, 'Swine,' by Ugluk and replies that Ugluk is a rebel and the Red-eye is upon him. All very well, but is it wise of Grishnakh to be quite so blunt with Ugluk? What would Saruman have done with Grishnakh had he come to Isengard? Killed him as a potential enemy? Or would Saruman have used his voice to convince Grishnakh that he wasn't betraying Sauron at all and he was as loyal a servant as ever!
 
4) But Pippin is very resourceful here. And he uses a bit of quick thinking to give a sign to the potentially following Aragorn. Yet I haven't read too many comments about these deeds of Pippin who is often considered one of the lesser members of the fellowship.

Yes, go Pippin! It's the beginning of some of his better moves, though some of the fool-of-a-Took ones are still to come too. Why not give him credit for it? I just read the bit where the army is heading out to the challenge at the Black Gate and Aragorn says Pippin has "yet to match" Merry's deed. While true, I think it's a bit hard Pippin doesn't get more credit. He also just saved Faramir's life.

I never think of Pippin as a lesser member, perhaps because many chapters are from his point of view, more than Merry gets. Do you actually, or were you just stirring up commenters in his defense? :)
 
1) Is there any other occasion when a Hobbit under extreme stress under the control of Orcs has made a joking comment about food?

The Orcs run on, even in sunlight.

Frodo doesn't joke at all when he is captured in Cirith Ungol, though Merry tells Aragorn in the Halls of Healing that it's simply Hobbit nature to joke in any stressful situation and apologizes, which draws Aragorn to remember why his kindred have been protecting Hobbits for centuries.

2) Is this the way Orcs normally march when on a campaign? I have read that Goblins don't like the sunlight, but perhaps it doesn't affect them fatally in the same way it did Trolls for example. I suppose on conquests they had to travel more than one night's worth on occasions.

Saruman made his Uruk-hai resistant to sunlight, to the point where its effect is negligible. Ulguk barks at the Northerners in particular as if he was a Man instead, like the sunlight was normal for him. Sauron's Uruks from the appendices also have tolerance to sunlight, so I guess Saruman boosted that trait to the point where it wasn't an issue. If I'm not mistaken the Ents attack Isengard after Saruman's army moves out- in daylight?

3) Pippin has visions of Strider following. He is torn between his own desire for rescue and the fact that he believes that this would be bad for the mission. Is he correct about this?

Merry and Pippin didn't think anyone would come, from their conversations in bondage. Yet he and Merry were also affected by Lothlorien in a way that is never mentioned, perhaps everyone involved has dreams(or ends up in other people's, like Boromir) of some sort after passing through there.

4) But Pippin is very resourceful here. And he uses a bit of quick thinking to give a sign to the potentially following Aragorn. Yet I haven't read too many comments about these deeds of Pippin who is often considered one of the lesser members of the fellowship.

His wit is the quickest of the four Hobbits, and as the youngest he isn't considered mature enough in a sense. Yet throughout the book he acts on instinct quite a lot, which has effects on the story (the Palantir episode,especially). I'd call him impulsive, but tempered by the situation after Khazad-dum. We do remember that this is the only Hobbit to dare to march to the Black Gate ;while not exactly Frodo and Sam's ordeal getting to Mount Doom, he is surely worthy of mentioning for his sheer chutzpah.

5) The Orcs continue to dash to Isengard. But they see the Riders who catch up with them with great speed. One thing here that I note the Orcs for all their brutality lack. Cavalry. In fact, that is one thing I notice about the Uruk-hai. For all of the fact that they are a superior kind of Orc, one thing they can't do it appears is ride wolves. Wouldn't Wolves be a vital aid to them here? I wonder if this is some fatal flaw in their make-up as the northern Goblins can, though not here obviously.

I would go the movie route and say that they are simply too big to ride anything. The Northerners and Grishnakh are clearly smaller orcs compared to them, and the Uruk-hai don't seem to tire especially with that burning draught. Saruman built them to fight the Riders, so I guess horses were not necessary.The wolves actually eat dead Uruk-hai after Helm's Deep, so I guess they were not meant to be allies after all.

I do wonder though, who does Mordor steal those black horses for other than the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron? Mordor is arguably a kingdom without Men (other than Nurnen) and its allies clearly have cavalry of their own. Eomer makes it sound like Mordor rustles quite often, yet Orcs do not ride horses. Surely Sauron's minions don't have a craving for horse meat?

6) Grishnakh. Oh, all right! He is an intelligent Orc as well. He can see Ugluk as a rebel and spots Saruman as one as well. He also, we find out later, has the presence of mind to send a message across to Sauron. But he is highly strung. He seems not to like been called, 'Swine,' by Ugluk and replies that Ugluk is a rebel and the Red-eye is upon him. All very well, but is it wise of Grishnakh to be quite so blunt with Ugluk? What would Saruman have done with Grishnakh had he come to Isengard? Killed him as a potential enemy? Or would Saruman have used his voice to convince Grishnakh that he wasn't betraying Sauron at all and he was as loyal a servant as ever!

Grishnakh probably can't imagine any Orc obeying a master other than Sauron or Morgoth or one so steadfastly loyal to another master. He threatens with the Nazgul and the Eye of Sauron, but the White Hand isn't scared of those things at all, which shocks Grishnakh to the core. He probably expected a quick nod and a change of direction, but Ulguk is not only obstinate, he is in absolute command of the situation and Grishnakh has walked into what is now a cul-de-sac. All those medals won't save ye now, General Grishnakh!
 
1) Is there any other occasion when a Hobbit under extreme stress under the control of Orcs has made a joking comment about food?
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Well Bilbo fantasises about food quite a bit when he's in tight spots. And there's Frodo making his wry little joke before he and Sam leave the Tower of Cirith Ungol: "I hope you’ve made inquiries about inns along the road? Or have you forgotten about food and drink?" I guess you could call that another "bed and breakfast" moment...
The Orcs run on, even in sunlight.
2) Is this the way Orcs normally march when on a campaign? I have read that Goblins don't like the sunlight, but perhaps it doesn't affect them fatally in the same way it did Trolls for example. I suppose on conquests they had to travel more than one night's worth on occasions.
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The Uruk-hai have been bred to be able to function in daylight. The Moria orcs hate it: "They [the Northern orcs] were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out." But they can endure it, it seems, if they are pushed hard enough.

3) Pippin has visions of Strider following. He is torn between his own desire for rescue and the fact that he believes that this would be bad for the mission. Is he correct about this?
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According to what had been discussed before the breaking of the Fellowship, he's correct - Aragorn's mission appeared to be a choice of two directions, Mount Doom and Minas Tirith. Fangorn, or Isengard, would definitely appear to be a major detour. Pippin has no way of knowing that he and Merry have now become Aragorn's chief goal - and no way of imagining that could be the case.

4) But Pippin is very resourceful here. And he uses a bit of quick thinking to give a sign to the potentially following Aragorn. Yet I haven't read too many comments about these deeds of Pippin who is often considered one of the lesser members of the fellowship.
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Pippin is better at quick thinking than Merry, who's normally much more considered in his thinking. So Pippin's dangerous and impulsive decision in this chapter seems quite in character. Merry has his impulsive moments too though - on the Fields of the Pelennor he's inspired to that sudden surge of heroism by Eowyn's plight. And by that point, now I think about it, Pippin has become more thoughtful - his response to Faramir's plight is to go and get help.

5) The Orcs continue to dash to Isengard. But they see the Riders who catch up with them with great speed. One thing here that I note the Orcs for all their brutality lack. Cavalry. In fact, that is one thing I notice about the Uruk-hai. For all of the fact that they are a superior kind of Orc, one thing they can't do it appears is ride wolves. Wouldn't Wolves be a vital aid to them here? I wonder if this is some fatal flaw in their make-up as the northern Goblins can, though not here obviously.
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I'm no expert on this kind of lore, but I'm wondering whether those wolf-riding orcs maybe are only shown riding them into battle? There's a difference between using animals in battle and using them for long-distance transport. I'm not sure wolves would have the stamina to be useful in a transport role such as this one. Especially for the Uruk-hai, who are much bigger and heavier than "standard" orcs.
6) Grishnakh. Oh, all right! He is an intelligent Orc as well. He can see Ugluk as a rebel and spots Saruman as one as well. He also, we find out later, has the presence of mind to send a message across to Sauron. But he is highly strung. He seems not to like been called, 'Swine,' by Ugluk and replies that Ugluk is a rebel and the Red-eye is upon him. All very well, but is it wise of Grishnakh to be quite so blunt with Ugluk? What would Saruman have done with Grishnakh had he come to Isengard? Killed him as a potential enemy? Or would Saruman have used his voice to convince Grishnakh that he wasn't betraying Sauron at all and he was as loyal a servant as ever!
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Grishnakh is certainly intelligent - he's playing a very dangerous game with Ugluk, at first all by himself. I don't think his response to Ugluk's insults is about being highly-strung - it's more about riling up the Northern orcs, trying to make them more afraid of the Red Eye than the White Hand so that they'll side with him. I think it's unlikely that Grishnakh would have stayed with Ugluk all the way to Isengard - his plan was to get the prisoners for himself when he got the opportunity (as he does when the Riders attack, which is really how Merry and Pippin end up outside the ring of the battle.)

Although Grishnakh went back to the Nazgul in order to get his reinforcements (not without some trouble, it seems - the Nazgul seems not to have been very pleased...) I'm not sure he's actually loyal to Sauron at all - he may be playing his own dangerous game, and trying to get the Ring for himself rather than his Master. We have no way of knowing how much Grishnakh knows, but he obviously gets Pippin's hints: "gollum, gollum. Nothing my precious...", which makes me think that there's been a leak from Barad-dur about Gollum (or maybe Grishnakh was even there when Gollum was tortured). In which case Grishnakh knows exactly what he's after. So is Grishnakh a trusted servant of Sauron who knows all Sauron's secrets and is trying to get the Ring for his Master? Or has he learned the secret for himself, and decided to play this dangerous game on his own account?
 

I'm no expert on this kind of lore, but I'm wondering whether those wolf-riding orcs maybe are only shown riding them into battle? There's a difference between using animals in battle and using them for long-distance transport. I'm not sure wolves would have the stamina to be useful in a transport role such as this one. Especially for the Uruk-hai, who are much bigger and heavier than "standard" orcs.

In the Hobbit Tolkien uses the word 'Wargs' instead of wolves. Though it's an old English word that means wolf, it seems to imply that these are larger wolves that Orcs can ride, rather than the usual ones that disturbed the Fellowship in Hollin or the ones that picked at the corpses of the enemy at the Hornburg. There are no wolf-riding Orcs in LoTR, which might point to it being a Northern thing.

Curuiously there are no wolves mentioned in Sauron's massive army at all, while there are giant Oliphaunts, horses, Fell Beasts and 'men like half-trolls'.

Although Grishnakh went back to the Nazgul in order to get his reinforcements (not without some trouble, it seems - the Nazgul seems not to have been very pleased...) I'm not sure he's actually loyal to Sauron at all - he may be playing his own dangerous game, and trying to get the Ring for himself rather than his Master. We have no way of knowing how much Grishnakh knows, but he obviously gets Pippin's hints: "gollum, gollum. Nothing my precious...", which makes me think that there's been a leak from Barad-dur about Gollum (or maybe Grishnakh was even there when Gollum was tortured). In which case Grishnakh knows exactly what he's after. So is Grishnakh a trusted servant of Sauron who knows all Sauron's secrets and is trying to get the Ring for his Master? Or has he learned the secret for himself, and decided to play this dangerous game on his own account?

Were he a Man, I would buy the 'not loyal' arguement, but Orcs are tied to Sauron's will to a point where they will go insane when he is vanquished. Grishnakh might be a schemer, but he definitely wants to take this Hobbit and the Ring to Lugburz for the big boss. The only variant is how he wants to do it, and via who. The Orcs in Cirith Ungol who all end up killing each other over Frodo want to please the master, or to deny others the chance to do so just out of spite. Grishnakh, I suspect would not want a knife in his back as soon as he pulls the quarry out of the bag. Loyal he is, but careful not to attract attention of the other Orcs.

Everyone in Mordor, especially captains like Grishnakh would know about Gollum (though the reader doesn't know yet) because Sauron let him out of Mordor and told his Orcs and Men not to disturb him. Gollum was also brought before Sauron himself, so that would have made news.

Gandalf makes it clear that no one can fool Sauron through cunning, not even Denethor or Saruman. That's why they sent nine (mostly) anonymous dudes south to walk into Mordor and destroy the ring at the Cracks of Doom. It is a crazy and stupid plan, but not one Sauron would have imagined. Therefore any scheming Orc or Wizard might think that his plan will work, yet it will fail utterly at the hands of Sauron, Morgoth's most cunning servant, the one who drowned mighty Numenor.
 
about warg-riding (or wolf-riding). I checked The Hobbit, and it does make me think that the riding is mostly short-term and just for attacks:
"in those days [goblins] sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on wolves like men do on horses."
​
Later, in the great Battle of Five Armies, there's a mention of wolf-riding Northern goblins, and Wargs who apparently aren't being ridden:
"They [the goblins] ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!"
​
But again, the wolf-riding is in the context of an attack. I don't see anything to suggest that the wolves allowed themselves to be treated as beasts of burden. And both these quotes suggest that Wargs weren't ridden at all, but fought alongside the goblins.


You may well be right about Grishnakh. There's no evidence that he's working for himself, although the last part when Pippin plays with his expectations makes it look as if he's feeling more than mere loyalty. Plus there's the common theme with all the orcs that they'll fight amongst themselves for any plunder they can find (the mithril coat for example) - they may be under Sauron's control but that doesn't seem to stop their natural greed overriding their discipline. So I don't think it's at all impossible for Grishnakh to be out for himself. Gandalf's words, as you say, tell us that no orc could hope to fool Sauron in the long run - but orcs don't think that far ahead, do they? Sauron clearly hasn't told the orcs in Cirith Ungol what they're looking for - they have a list of things to search for ("every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once"), but they don't specificially know about the Ring. Yet Grishnakh does. That's why I wonder about him.
 
1) Is there any other occasion when a Hobbit under extreme stress under the control of Orcs has made a joking comment about food?
I didn't remember Frodo's comment which FarFromHome posted.
But arguably this is after he is released from captivity.
Other than that - no, none that I can think of.

2) Is this the way Orcs normally march when on a campaign?
Well, the attack on the Mountain in the Battle of Five Armies was in broad daylight. Quite wrong, isn't it?

3) Pippin has visions of Strider following. He is torn between his own desire for rescue and the fact that he believes that this would be bad for the mission. Is he correct about this?
About what?

4) But Pippin is very resourceful here. And he uses a bit of quick thinking to give a sign to the potentially following Aragorn. Yet I haven't read too many comments about these deeds of Pippin who is often considered one of the lesser members of the fellowship.
I think I have mentioned already that he is the hero of this chapter.
Haven't I? So I'll do it now.

5) The Orcs continue to dash to Isengard... Wouldn't Wolves be a vital aid to them here?
Are wolves beaing orcs twice their weight a match for horses?
And how will Ugluk feed the wargs on the raid?

6) Grishnakh. Oh, all right! He is an intelligent Orc as well. He can see Ugluk as a rebel and spots Saruman as one as well.
The way I see it, he was sent to fetch the prisoner, and found out that Ugluk had different orders. Add that to the filthy white badges, and yes, he added one to one.

He also, we find out later, has the presence of mind to send a message across to Sauron.
As I understand it, he returns to report in person.

But he is highly strung. He seems not to like been called, 'Swine,' by Ugluk and replies that Ugluk is a rebel and the Red-eye is upon him. All very well, but is it wise of Grishnakh to be quite so blunt with Ugluk?
I see eye to eye with FarFromHome in this.
Now in thread no. 1, squire had just posted two bits of evidence that Tolkien thought that Grishnakh had at least one follower, i.e. he wasn't alone.
The second argument is less than convincing (he was the captain of the reinforcement troops), but the first is important. Perhaps he crossed with one or two followers, who somehow tried to rouse the guards. These might have been among those Ugluk killed. Or Tolkien forgot. Anyway, that's a good argument.
But not strong enough to change the way I read this chapter.

What would Saruman have done with Grishnakh had he come to Isengard? Killed him as a potential enemy? Or would Saruman have used his voice to convince Grishnakh that he wasn't betraying Sauron at all and he was as loyal a servant as ever!
Oh, I don't think Grishnakh would have come to Isengard, least of all had gotten and audience with Saruman.
But the important question is: if Saruman had indeed waited in Fangorn, what would Grishnakh have done then? Would he lie down low, and would Ugluk report him? I suppose Saruman would use the gibbet and his crows, or feed him to the wolves - but that's just guessing.
 
Well Bilbo fantasises about food quite a bit when he's in tight spots. And there's Frodo making his wry little joke before he and Sam leave the Tower of Cirith Ungol: "I hope you’ve made inquiries about inns along the road? Or have you forgotten about food and drink?" I guess you could call that another "bed and breakfast" moment...
 
Not just in The Hobbit - there's one reference to wolf-riders in the LotR that I know of. In the 'Flotsam & Jetsam' chapter of The Two Towers, when Pippin and Merry are explaining to Aragorn and co. what they saw at Isengard, it is mentioned that Saruman's army included troops of Orcs riding wolves.

Why Saruman didn't deploy this weapon during his desperate lunge to acquire the One Ring, I'm not too sure. There's already a great post on this thread about wolf-riders only being short-range attack units, so maybe the Emyn Muil was just too far for them. There's also the possibility that Saruman was keeping his wolf-riders in reserve, as a 'secret weapon' for the big push on Rohan. This might have a parallel in the strict limits Sauron put on the winged Nazgûl - even in the event of trying to overhaul the Fellowship and snatch the One Ring, that Nazgûl still wasn't allowed to cross the Anduin.

As to why none of Sauron's armies are ever mentioned as including wolf-riders (or even wolves), that's a bit odd - especially given his affinity with such creatures in the First Age (Lord of the Werewolves and all that). Maybe the wolves / Wargs in question were only endemic to the Misty Mountains?
 
"[size 2][size 2]In the Hobbit Tolkien uses the word 'Wargs' instead of wolves. Though it's an old English word that means wolf, it seems to imply that these are larger wolves that Orcs can ride, rather than the usual ones that disturbed the Fellowship in Hollin or the ones that picked at the corpses of the enemy at the Hornburg. There are no wolf-riding Orcs in LoTR, which might point to it being a Northern thing."

Hope you don't mind a couple of corrections, made in haste -

It's already been pointed out that Saruman had wolf-riders at Isengard. As for the wolves at Hollin, Aragorn cries 'The Wargs have come west of the Mountains'; Gandalf addresses the warg chieftain as 'Hound of Sauron', and after the fight Gandalf says 'These were not ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness'.

The orc-strpping wolves were at the Fords of Isen, not the Hornbug.
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