The Taming of Smeagol III: If it's Tuesday this must be Friday.

[Darkstone]

Middle-earth itself is often cited as a character in LOTR, even sometimes the main character.

How does Tolkien personify the land as we approach Mordor? Why?

Is the land of Mordor itself evil?

Is it evil in the same way as the Old Forest?

Are there hints that the land itself is herding Frodo and Sam?

Is there an Old Man Willow and/or Tom Bombadil in Mordor?

Is Mordor part of the same world as The Shire?

If not, how does one get there?

How many worlds make up the character of Middle-earth?


Occasionally the sky clears and the stars and moon break out.

Do these happen at timely occasions?

Who is ultimately in control of the weather of Middle-earth?

Are they helping Frodo and Sam?


Things would have gone ill with Sam, if he had been alone. But Frodo sprang up, and drew Sting from its sheath. With his left hand he drew back Gollum's head by his thin lank hair, stretching his long neck, and forcing his pale venomous eyes to stare up at the sky.
"Let go! Gollum," he said. "This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time. Let go, or you'll feel it this time! I'll cut your throat."

Cutting someone’s throat, especially while looking them in the face, is something even the strongest may quail at.

Is Frodo really capable of such?

If so, what later changes him?


Gollum collapsed and went as loose as wet string. Sam got up, fingering his shoulder. His eyes smouldered with anger, but he could not avenge himself: his miserable enemy lay grovelling on the stones whimpering.

Is Sam experiencing a moment of pity?

If so, does the pity of Sam affect the fate of anyone?

If so, who and how?


"I daresay," said Frodo. "But what he means to do is another matter." He paused for a while in thought. Gollum lay still, but stopped whimpering. Sam stood glowering over him.
It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past:
What a pity Bilbo did not stub the vile creature, when he had a chance!
Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.
I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.
Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
"Very well," he answered aloud, lowering his sword. "But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him."

Was this moment more or less dangerous for Frodo than the one in the Barrow Downs?

Does Sam have such a dangerous moment?


"Yess, wretched we are, precious," he whined. "Misery misery! Hobbits won't kill us, nice hobbits."
"No, we won't," said Frodo. "But we won't let you go, either. You're full of wickedness and mischief, Gollum. You will have to come with us, that's all, while we keep an eye on you.

Aren’t these the same options that were considered for the ring?

Is Gollum like the ring?

Could Gollum have been killed?

Or would he have turned into a wraith?

Any other comments?


Extra credit:

“Robinsonade” is a literary genre taking its name from Daniel Defoe’s novel Robinson Crusoe. The novel was first published in 1719 and has not been out of print since.

The common themes in a robinsonade are:

Isolation.
A new beginning.
Encounters with natives.
Commentary on society.
Unfriendliness of nature.

Is The Lord of the Rings a robinsonade?


James Joyce commented on Robinson Crusoe:
“The whole Anglo-Saxon spirit is in Crusoe: the manly independence, the unconscious cruelty, the persistence, the slow yet efficient intelligence, the sexual apathy, the calculating taciturnity."

Do any of the characters in The Lord of the Rings fit Joyce’s concept of the “whole Anglo-Saxon spirit”?

Robinson Crusoe, upon resolving to save the native later known as Friday:

It came very warmly upon my thoughts, and indeed irresistibly, that now was the time to get me a servant, and, perhaps, a companion or assistant; and that I was plainly called by Providence to save this poor creature’s life.


Is this applicable to Frodo’s reasoning towards Gollum?

Is this reasoning why Sam was taught his letters?

Who else, if anyone, in Middle-earth had this as their reasoning like, say, the Elves regarding the trees?

Is this reasoning exploitive? Patronizing?


Next: The Caliban Question

 

[CuriousG]

Middle-earth itself is often cited as a character in LOTR, even sometimes the main character.

How does Tolkien personify the land as we approach Mordor? Why?

Is the land of Mordor itself evil?
Good question. I'm tempted to say yes, because I've always thought so. Always. But if I think a little more right now, I'd say no, it was just twisted by Sauron, but it wasn't really an evil extension of him like the Nazgul and the Ring were. It didn't have a malicious, sentient "soul" like Caradhras did. More of a victim of its landlord.

Is it evil in the same way as the Old Forest?
No. The dark trees there had true malice. As we follow Frodo to the bitter end of the quest, I'd even say Mount Doom wasn't quite evil, or if it was, again, it wasn't like Caradhras. It did nothing to inhibit their ascent or warn its precious master or prevent the Ring's destruction. I'm not sure its eruption at the end was principally to kill the hobbits but was more like an atomic bomb going off when the Ring was destroyed.

Are there hints that the land itself is herding Frodo and Sam?
If so, then I missed them, but I can be dense.

Is there an Old Man Willow and/or Tom Bombadil in Mordor?
I don't think so. On first read, I hoped there was an equivalent of Bombadil there to help them out, but no such luck.

Is Mordor part of the same world as The Shire?
Hmm. I like this question but don't have a good answer. Immediate response is "Of course, haven't you seen a map?" But thinking a little (could you please stop requiring that!), it seems in an abstract way like some Sauron-dimension that has collided with Middle-earth. Or to put it another way, you definitely get the feel over and over that Mordor shouldn't be the way it is and doesn't belong in the world. It's a perversion, a corruption. I wouldn't say it's the opposite of The Shire, though obviously it is in many ways. Yet there are other idyllic places in ME besides The Shire, and all these idyllic places do belong in ME and show what ME is capable of. Mordor is the opposite of all of them. One could say that just as Lorien and The Shire are meant to show the good that ME is capable of creating, Mordor is intended to show the evil that ME is capable of becoming. But that symmetry doesn't resonate well for me. Though Arda was fated to be marred, I don't get the sense that Tolkien thought Mordor belonged in it, and for that reason, Mordor was doomed to stop being as awful as it was. It's part of something else, or maybe, it's not a part of anything. If I think of the Music of the Ainur, I'd guess that maybe it wasn't included there.

If not, how does one get there?
OK, now you're being literal, I think. It's part of the same world. You can walk there.

How many worlds make up the character of Middle-earth?
Rivendell, Lorien, and The Shire seem to me to be subsets of the one world of ME, not different worlds. So, I'd say there's only one.

Occasionally the sky clears and the stars and moon break out.

Do these happen at timely occasions?

Who is ultimately in control of the weather of Middle-earth?
Manwe, when he wants to be. Sauron, when he wants to send smog out west.

Are they helping Frodo and Sam?
For the most part, yes.

Things would have gone ill with Sam, if he had been alone. But Frodo sprang up, and drew Sting from its sheath. With his left hand he drew back Gollum's head by his thin lank hair, stretching his long neck, and forcing his pale venomous eyes to stare up at the sky.
"Let go! Gollum," he said. "This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time. Let go, or you'll feel it this time! I'll cut your throat."

Cutting someone’s throat, especially while looking them in the face, is something even the strongest may quail at.

Is Frodo really capable of such?
I doubt it, but it makes good drama. But maybe he could. His pity for Gollum comes later. At this point, Gollum is still a monster to him. Killing him is like killing an orc. No one seems to hesitate doing that or ruing it afterward.

If so, what later changes him?
Exposure. The more he is destroyed inside by the Ring, the more he feels like Gollum inside and understands him. Gollum becomes not the monster, but the image Frodo knows he could someday see in the mirror. In that sense, killing Gollum would be like killing himself, so later he can't do it. Not even Sam can.


Gollum collapsed and went as loose as wet string. Sam got up, fingering his shoulder. His eyes smouldered with anger, but he could not avenge himself: his miserable enemy lay grovelling on the stones whimpering.

Is Sam experiencing a moment of pity?
Most certainly.

If so, does the pity of Sam affect the fate of anyone?
Yep, everyone.

If so, who and how?
Well, everyone, and how, by allowing Gollum to bite Frodo's finger off and destroy Sauron and save the world. So it was worth it.


"I daresay," said Frodo. "But what he means to do is another matter." He paused for a while in thought. Gollum lay still, but stopped whimpering. Sam stood glowering over him.
It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past:
What a pity Bilbo did not stub the vile creature, when he had a chance!
Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.
I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.
Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
"Very well," he answered aloud, lowering his sword. "But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him."

Was this moment more or less dangerous for Frodo than the one in the Barrow Downs?
Hmm. I don't see a connection or any danger here.

Does Sam have such a dangerous moment?


"Yess, wretched we are, precious," he whined. "Misery misery! Hobbits won't kill us, nice hobbits."
"No, we won't," said Frodo. "But we won't let you go, either. You're full of wickedness and mischief, Gollum. You will have to come with us, that's all, while we keep an eye on you.

Aren’t these the same options that were considered for the ring?
Not as I see them. The options for the Ring that were discussed were: 1) hide it forever, 2) send it over the Sea, 3) destroy it, 4) toss it into the Sea.

Is Gollum like the ring?
It's hard to separate the two. Gollum is what's left after the Ring has consumed him and cast him aside. Yet Gollum, though beaten down beyond hobbitly recognition, still possesses more complexity than the Ring. He loathes and loves it. He fears and desires it. He's capable of liking Frodo and despising Sam. The Ring doesn't have this range of complexity. I can't imagine the Ring ever doing a single "good" thing. Gollum is just about 1% capable of doing good.

Put in another perspective, Gollum is like the Ring in that he is a corrupting influence. He brings out the worst in Sam, and by bringing out the best in Frodo, he puts Frodo off his guard. Not everything Gollum does is conscious. His presence is as destabilizing as the Ring's is.

Could Gollum have been killed?
Sure. I think Tolkien would have insisted that this was possible. Free will was in play here. Frodo and Sam had to be capable of killing him. The fact that they did not was a sign of their moral strength which helped them resist the Ring and make it all the way to the Cracks of Doom. Plus it makes us like them.

Or would he have turned into a wraith?
Oh, I thought you meant Fate. I should read ahead, huh? No. He'd be dead. I don't see how he could become a wraith. For one thing, he had parted ways with the Ring a long time ago. It had a hold on his mind, but not the same power that was turning Frodo into a wraith post-Weathertop or the power that made the Nine into the Nazgul.

Any other comments?


Extra credit:

“Robinsonade” is a literary genre taking its name from Daniel Defoe’s novel Robinson Crusoe. The novel was first published in 1719 and has not been out of print since.

The common themes in a robinsonade are:

Isolation.
A new beginning.
Encounters with natives.
Commentary on society.
Unfriendliness of nature.

Is The Lord of the Rings a robinsonade?

Not for me. I see the suggested similarities, but they're too much of a stretch for me.

James Joyce commented on Robinson Crusoe:
“The whole Anglo-Saxon spirit is in Crusoe: the manly independence, the unconscious cruelty, the persistence, the slow yet efficient intelligence, the sexual apathy, the calculating taciturnity."

Do any of the characters in The Lord of the Rings fit Joyce’s concept of the “whole Anglo-Saxon spirit”?

Well, I guess you or Joyce are suggesting Gollum is the quintessential Brit. Maybe the Irish would agree. I wouldn't.

Robinson Crusoe, upon resolving to save the native later known as Friday:

It came very warmly upon my thoughts, and indeed irresistibly, that now was the time to get me a servant, and, perhaps, a companion or assistant; and that I was plainly called by Providence to save this poor creature’s life.


Is this applicable to Frodo’s reasoning towards Gollum?
Frodo already had Sam the servant, though maybe he wanted to enlarge his retinue. Crusoe was isolated and lonely, craving the presence of another human being. Whatever pity Frodo feels, adding Gollum to the group doesn't equal three hobbits. He's still a unique sort of monster, not someone to cure your loneliness. But for the last part, yes, Frodo may have very well felt some divine intervention to save Gollum.

Is this reasoning why Sam was taught his letters?
I think that was more noblesse oblige. Or that Bilbo saw that Sam was bright enough to learn and therefore should be taught.

Who else, if anyone, in Middle-earth had this as their reasoning like, say, the Elves regarding the trees?
Aule and the dwarves. I like your point about Elves and trees. Rohirrim and horses. Dwarves and mithril.

Is this reasoning exploitive? Patronizing?
Yes to both. It's especially annoying to my egalitarian ideals that Crusoe just naturally considered Friday inferior and his first thought was that he wanted a servant, then "perhaps" a companion. His first thought wasn't that he was seeking an equal. I'd call him a jerk, but that novel was written in a time of class separations, so it would have made sense to readers. If he said that in 2011, I'd call him a jerk and get Friday a lawyer.

 

[Dreamdeer]

Middle-earth itself is often cited as a character in LOTR, even sometimes the main character.

How does Tolkien personify the land as we approach Mordor? Why?


By using words commonly applied to people, such as frowning, sullen, sickly, festering, or fitful. Why, because he has animistic leanings, not to be confused with pantheistic.

Is the land of Mordor itself evil?
No. It's a victim of Sauron. If you belonged to Sauron, you'd also be sullen, frowning, sickly, festering, and fitful.

Is it evil in the same way as the Old Forest?
No. For that matter, I wouldn't precisely define the Old Forest as evil. The OF's more on the defensive than anything, and small wonder. Mean, resentful, unkind to trespassers, but not out and out evil. Now the Barrow Downs are evil, and the wights owe allegiance to the Dark Lord. That's different. But you can remind Old Man Willow to behave like a tree and not a carnivore.

Are there hints that the land itself is herding Frodo and Sam?
In a sense. They keep trying to go towards Morder but seem pixy-led.

Is there an Old Man Willow and/or Tom Bombadil in Mordor?
You might possibly equate Shelob with Old Man Willow, but OMW has some valid grievances that have made him bitter, and a sense of responsibility to the rest of the woods. Shelob's just utterly self-absorbed.

If there's a Tom Bombadil equivalent, we never get to meet him. Or her. Or whatever.

Is Mordor part of the same world as The Shire?
Nice question. One could call it a really dark corner of the Yoania (Yaqui concept of the Dark Magic World.) But no, in a sense it's the opposite, and far worse. The "reality" imposed on the geography has nothing to do with the Sea Ania spectrum of Yaqui philosophy, in that it bears no connection to the natural order whatsoever. It is anti-natural. Nature only exists there as an ill-used slave, a haggard and hostile escapee, or a corpse. It's more like the first blemish of the modern world, waiting for its chance to spread. It's the Progress Ania. It's part of the same world as Phoenix.

If not, how does one get there?
One opens one's will to a reality to get there. Dangerous business. Now that you mention it, Frodo opens the way to Mordor by exerting power over Gollum.

How many worlds make up the character of Middle-earth?
Well, let's see...there's five original worlds here and now (not counting the Progress World that the Europeans introduced, or the Cyber Ania where we make these exchanges.) There's the Ania Yoem, or everyday world of those who have enchantment in their hearts, and that would be the equivalent of the Shire. There's the Sea Ania, the Flower Reality (sometimes seen as the umbrella for all that is not the Ania Yoem) a realm of mystery and marvel in synch with nature, and that would correspond to Rivendell. Lothlorien (AKA "Dreamflower") would correspond with the Tenku Ania, or dream reality, because really, it exists by the exertion of Galadriel's dream and isn't quite in synch with the rest of the world. And of course the vast stretches of wilderness exactly correspond to the Huya Ania, Wilderness World. The Yo Ania, Dark Magic World, might describe Minas Morgul, not yet subsumed into the Progress Ania. So, I'd say six. Seven if you count the realms of the True West.

Occasionally the sky clears and the stars and moon break out.

Do these happen at timely occasions?

Yes.


Who is ultimately in control of the weather of Middle-earth?
Nobody seems ultimately in control, but contrary to Tom Bombadil's famous denial that anyone on two legs can control the weather, a number of different individuals and forces seem to vye over it from time to time.

Are they helping Frodo and Sam?
Whoever causes the occasional breaks in Sauron's weather seems inclined that way.

Things would have gone ill with Sam, if he had been alone. But Frodo sprang up, and drew Sting from its sheath. With his left hand he drew back Gollum's head by his thin lank hair, stretching his long neck, and forcing his pale venomous eyes to stare up at the sky.
"Let go! Gollum," he said. "This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time. Let go, or you'll feel it this time! I'll cut your throat."

Cutting someone’s throat, especially while looking them in the face, is something even the strongest may quail at.

Is Frodo really capable of such?
I think so. Maybe not normally, but Gollum just directly threatened the Ring.

If so, what later changes him?
Empathy through experience.


Gollum collapsed and went as loose as wet string. Sam got up, fingering his shoulder. His eyes smouldered with anger, but he could not avenge himself: his miserable enemy lay grovelling on the stones whimpering.

Is Sam experiencing a moment of pity?
Yes.

If so, does the pity of Sam affect the fate of anyone?
Not as much as Bilbo's since his idea of vengeance would have likely meant roughing Gollum up. If his pity had extended all the way to Cirith Ungol it might have enabled the trio to get to Mt. Doom sooner, and Gollum would have jumped into the Volcano with it on purpose. It could have saved Gollum's soul--otherwise the effect would have been the same.

If so, who and how?
But alas, it didn't happen quite that way.


"I daresay," said Frodo. "But what he means to do is another matter." He paused for a while in thought. Gollum lay still, but stopped whimpering. Sam stood glowering over him.
It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past:
What a pity Bilbo did not stub the vile creature, when he had a chance!
Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.
I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.
Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
"Very well," he answered aloud, lowering his sword. "But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him."

Was this moment more or less dangerous for Frodo than the one in the Barrow Downs?
Much more dangerous! Had he slain Gollum, nobody would have saved him from himself in the end.

Does Sam have such a dangerous moment?

Yes, when the Ring tempts him.

"Yess, wretched we are, precious," he whined. "Misery misery! Hobbits won't kill us, nice hobbits."
"No, we won't," said Frodo. "But we won't let you go, either. You're full of wickedness and mischief, Gollum. You will have to come with us, that's all, while we keep an eye on you.

Aren’t these the same options that were considered for the ring?
In reverse. Rather than destroy Gollum, Frodo chose to keep him safe and under observation.

Is Gollum like the ring?
Gollum is the Ring. Smeagol not so much.

Could Gollum have been killed?
Since he doesn't currently possess the Ring, yes. Once he owns it again, not unless the Ring itself perishes or once again abandons him.

Or would he have turned into a wraith?
He would have hung on horribly until he healed. Wraithdom would only come if he used the Ring constantly after reclaiming it.

Any other comments?

Are Frodo and Gollum in the same reality as Sam?

Extra credit:

“Robinsonade” is a literary genre taking its name from Daniel Defoe’s novel Robinson Crusoe. The novel was first published in 1719 and has not been out of print since.

The common themes in a robinsonade are:

Isolation.
A new beginning.
Encounters with natives.
Commentary on society.
Unfriendliness of nature.

Is The Lord of the Rings a robinsonade?

No. Although Frodo is perpetually tempted by isolation, he never experiences it. He does not experience a new beginning, but a blight upon his future. Gollum is not a native of Mordor, and the orcs which Frodo encounters might have been drawn into Mordor rather than being born there. There's plenty of commentary on society, but what readable book doesn't make such? Unnature is far more unfriendly in Mordor than nature. So no, I don't see it as a robinsonade.

James Joyce commented on Robinson Crusoe:
“The whole Anglo-Saxon spirit is in Crusoe: the manly independence, the unconscious cruelty, the persistence, the slow yet efficient intelligence, the sexual apathy, the calculating taciturnity."

Do any of the characters in The Lord of the Rings fit Joyce’s concept of the “whole Anglo-Saxon spirit”?

Boromir, maybe Denethor.

Robinson Crusoe, upon resolving to save the native later known as Friday:

It came very warmly upon my thoughts, and indeed irresistibly, that now was the time to get me a servant, and, perhaps, a companion or assistant; and that I was plainly called by Providence to save this poor creature’s life.


Is this applicable to Frodo’s reasoning towards Gollum?
In a sense. "Servant" includes a guide.

Is this reasoning why Sam was taught his letters?
I doubt it. I think Bilbo took pity on a psychologically abused child and wanted to introduce a different, counterbalancing influence on his life. I think he heard the boy called a ninnyhammer one too many times and decided to prove he wasn't.

Who else, if anyone, in Middle-earth had this as their reasoning like, say, the Elves regarding the trees?
Elves regarding men.

Is this reasoning exploitive? Patronizing?
Yes. In fact the first human being to fall under elvish influence was called, in Elvish, "Thrall"! I would speculate that, in a perfect world, the elves might have developed a parent/child relationship with human beings, but with a clear thought of the human beings eventually growing up and inheriting the world. Instead the elves made rings for themselves that unnaturally prolonged their days on Middle Earth, trapping humanity into a perpetual childhood under their unending tutelage, which naturally caused Men to chafe and made them ripe to ask for rings of their own.

Thank you for the wonderful, thought-provoking questions!

 

[Ufthak]

Gollum collapsed and went as loose as wet string. Sam got up, fingering his shoulder. His eyes smouldered with anger, but he could not avenge himself: his miserable enemy lay grovelling on the stones whimpering.

Is Sam experiencing a moment of pity?

No. He's experiencing a moment of anger, but anger that is not strong enough to result in attacking an enemy held at bay by another's blade. That's not... good manners.

James Joyce commented on Robinson Crusoe:
“The whole Anglo-Saxon spirit is in Crusoe: the manly independence, the unconscious cruelty, the persistence, the slow yet efficient intelligence, the sexual apathy, the calculating taciturnity."

Do any of the characters in The Lord of the Rings fit Joyce’s concept of the “whole Anglo-Saxon spirit”?

Denethor, and to a lesser extent Boromir. Although everyone's sexually apathetic, with the exception of Sam.

 

[batik]

How does Tolkien personify the land as we approach Mordor? Why?

Eek! No book on hand! But no worries-- Dreamdeer provided good examples of some of the words used to point out the characteristics of Mordor. Lots of personification used, too, when the three hunters entered Rohan.

How many worlds make up the character of Middle-earth?

What makes a world? The land, people, events? Would if be fair to suggest that Middle-earth is made up of (to papraphrase Galadriel)--what was, what is, and what will be?