The Passing of the Grey Company: Eowyn and Aragorn.

[Pryderi]

Welcome back to the discussion. Today I want to talk about the interchanges between Eowyn and Aragorn at Dunharrow.

As we shall see, I hope, their interaction is extremely emotional. And yet the narrator never offers us any insight into, in particular, Eowyn's state of mind. We learn what she said, how she looked etc. and are left to infer her emotional state from these external signals. Why do you think Tolkien does this? Does it work? Do you like it?

As the Grey Company arrive at Dunharrow they are greeted by Eowyn who is very impressed with the "mighty" Dunedain and the "fair sons of Elrond" but, the narrator tells us, that: "…on Aragorn most of all her eyes rested". In my notes I marked this as an "early hint" of what is going on. Perhaps, though, the reader is expected already to understand that Eowyn has fallen for Aragorn, big time. Is this a hint or a reminder?

The two embark upon a series of "courtly" exchanges: "It was kindly done, lord…."; "Indeed no man would count such a journey wasted…" etc. I get the feeling that the two of them are playing some elaborate game whose rules they understand but I suspect I do not. What do you think?

She plays the good hostess promising that they will have better accommodation once she has had a chance to organise it the following day. Aragorn explains that that will not be necessary as they are off in the morning and will take the Paths of the Dead. There are a number of similes in this section: "…she answered as one who likes not what is said"; "Then she stared at him as one that is stricken". Do they help us get inside Eowyn's head? Are they intended to?

Eowyn is not only "stricken" by the news she also seems angry: "But this is madness…". Aragorn courteously asserts himself: "It is not madness, lady…..". They are eating and the meal is finished in silence: "but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn and all could see she was in great torment of mind". What is the nature of this torment?

These exchanges have been in public and they have consistently addressed each other as lord and lady. As A, L and G retire to their booth Aragorn is ambushed by Eowyn as he is following L and G into it. I take the ensuing conversation to be private (unless Gimli was eavesdropping so that he could report to Frodo for the Red Book in due course. Was their conversation overheard?) Eowyn immediately addresses Aragorn by name, rather than by the title "lord". After many readings I take this to be Eowyn's first (failed) attempt to put her relationship with Aragorn on a more intimate footing. It is worth noting I think that Aragorn always addresses Eowyn as "lady". What do you think?

We are told that Eowyn is "clad in white" at this stage and I think it is implied that she has changed. Is this important? I've seen it suggested that she might be in night attire although I'm not sure about that. How about you?

Their conversation is justly celebrated and I'm not going to rehearse its content. All I will say is that Eowyn always inspires in me both admiration and sympathy. I might even say "love" if one can love a fictional character. I believe some find her to be irresponsible and mentally unstable. Where do you stand on this?

Eowyn's final thrust is to start calling Aragorn "thee" rather than "you". But it seems that even she realises that by so doing, and by obliquely declaring her love for him, she has finally overstepped the boundaries of decent behaviour because "….she turned and vanished into the night". I see her flight as caused by embarrassment. Is that right?

In their final exchange the following morning Eowyn goes for broke and as she fails is inevitably humiliated. She weeps, she addresses Aragorn by name, she consistently uses thee and thou, she falls on her knees and begs. This is all in public with the Grey Company looking on. No need for Gimli to eavesdrop here. If Eowyn is humiliated Aragorn is mortified. I do not think either have behaved badly and after many readings I think I can understand their thoughts and emotions to a degree, even though they are never explicitly described. Perhaps I just got older and life's experience made such matters easier to grasp. Any comments on any of that?

Throughout these final exchanges Eowyn has thoued Aragorn while he has stalwartly used the polite rather than the familiar pronoun. So it is good to read the final exchange between them at her betrothal to Faramir in Many Partings. "Wish me joy, my liege lord and healer." she says and Aragorn responds: "I have wished thee joy ever since I first saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss." Ceremonious or familiar? Anyway the humiliation and the mortification are gone if not forgotten. Don't you just love Tolkien? I know I do.

That's all for now,
Pryderi.

 

[Elizabeth]

As we shall see, I hope, their interaction is extremely emotional. And yet the narrator never offers us any insight into, in particular, Eowyn's state of mind. We learn what she said, how she looked etc. and are left to infer her emotional state from these external signals. Why do you think Tolkien does this? Does it work? Do you like it?

We don't see inside any heads of Men or Elves, and only briefly into a Dwarf's head. Our view of Aragorn is equally external. It works fine!

As the Grey Company arrive at Dunharrow they are greeted by Eowyn who is very impressed with the "mighty" Dunedain and the "fair sons of Elrond" but, the narrator tells us, that: "…on Aragorn most of all her eyes rested". In my notes I marked this as an "early hint" of what is going on. Perhaps, though, the reader is expected already to understand that Eowyn has fallen for Aragorn, big time. Is this a hint or a reminder?

I think it was very clear from the outset that Éowyn has fallen for Aragorn. She has been in a very difficult situation. For many years, she has been apparently the only woman of her status in court. In Primary World medieval cultures, Théoden would have arranged a suitable marriage for her. Tolkien doesn't seem to go in for arranged marriages, but Edoras is remote, and opportunities are limited. Add to this the terrible strain of dealing with Théoden's enchantment and Wormtongue's intrigues, and it's clear that she is in desperate need of something to change her life. Aragorn is everything she could possibly want, and (as he himself notes later) she is probably more in love with what he represents than with his actual character, of which she has seen little.

The two embark upon a series of "courtly" exchanges: "It was kindly done, lord…."; "Indeed no man would count such a journey wasted…" etc. I get the feeling that the two of them are playing some elaborate game whose rules they understand but I suspect I do not. What do you think?

It's called flirting, on her side, and bland courtesy on his.

Aragorn explains that that will not be necessary as they are off in the morning and will take the Paths of the Dead. There are a number of similes in this section: "…she answered as one who likes not what is said"; "Then she stared at him as one that is stricken". Do they help us get inside Eowyn's head? Are they intended to?

It's basically the same reaction as he got from Théoden and Éomer, and for the same reason: they assume he cannot survive, and therefore the Good Guys are losing a major asset. Plus, in her case, her beloved.

Eowyn is not only "stricken" by the news she also seems angry: "But this is madness…". Aragorn courteously asserts himself: "It is not madness, lady…..". They are eating and the meal is finished in silence: "but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn and all could see she was in great torment of mind". What is the nature of this torment?

See above. Both in this scene and the previous one with Théoden & co. I do think Aragorn should have explained a bit more what he was trying to do and why he thought it might work. It would have saved a lot of grief.

As A, L and G retire to their booth Aragorn is ambushed by Eowyn as he is following L and G into it. I take the ensuing conversation to be private (unless Gimli was eavesdropping so that he could report to Frodo for the Red Book in due course. Was their conversation overheard?)

Probably, but Gimli was too gentlemanly to admit it.

Eowyn immediately addresses Aragorn by name, rather than by the title "lord". After many readings I take this to be Eowyn's first (failed) attempt to put her relationship with Aragorn on a more intimate footing. It is worth noting I think that Aragorn always addresses Eowyn as "lady". What do you think?

For a woman of her status, this is shockingly "forward". But she is desperate. Aragorn knows exactly what's going on, and is walking a fine line between displaying any gesture or word that she might take as encouragement and the unacceptable discourtesy of acknowledging her pass and rejecting it outright.

We are told that Eowyn is "clad in white" at this stage and I think it is implied that she has changed. Is this important? I've seen it suggested that she might be in night attire although I'm not sure about that. How about you?

She is doing what my grandmother would have called "throwing herself at him." As I said, she is desperate.

All I will say is that Eowyn always inspires in me both admiration and sympathy. I might even say "love" if one can love a fictional character. I believe some find her to be irresponsible and mentally unstable. Where do you stand on this?

I'm less sympathetic than you are. I do understand that she has been in an intolerable situation. But I agree with Aragorn in this exchange:

‘Few may do that with honour,’ he answered. ‘But as for you, lady: did you not accept the charge to govern the people until their lord’s return? If you had not been chosen, then some marshal or captain would have been set in the same place, and he could not ride away from his charge, were he weary of it or no.’

‘Shall I always be chosen?’ she said bitterly. ‘Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?’

I relate to her discontent with being constrained to a woman's role, but Aragorn's point is that is not the situation now: she has been given a man's responsibility, and if both Théoden and Éomer fail to return, she will doubtless become queen. Her insistence on "winning renown" at the expense of her responsibility to her people is very unattractive to me.

Eowyn's final thrust is to start calling Aragorn "thee" rather than "you". But it seems that even she realises that by so doing, and by obliquely declaring her love for him, she has finally overstepped the boundaries of decent behaviour because "….she turned and vanished into the night". I see her flight as caused by embarrassment. Is that right?

Better believe it!

In their final exchange the following morning Eowyn goes for broke and as she fails is inevitably humiliated. She weeps, she addresses Aragorn by name, she consistently uses thee and thou, she falls on her knees and begs. This is all in public with the Grey Company looking on. No need for Gimli to eavesdrop here. If Eowyn is humiliated Aragorn is mortified. I do not think either have behaved badly and after many readings I think I can understand their thoughts and emotions to a degree, even though they are never explicitly described. Perhaps I just got older and life's experience made such matters easier to grasp. Any comments on any of that?

Yes, Tolkien has made the feelings of both exquisitely clear. I still remember reading this for the first time, and with the memory of Faramir fresh in my mind, thinking, "For God's sake, won't someone introduce her to this man?"

Throughout these final exchanges Eowyn has thoued Aragorn while he has stalwartly used the polite rather than the familiar pronoun. So it is good to read the final exchange between them at her betrothal to Faramir in Many Partings. "Wish me joy, my liege lord and healer." she says and Aragorn responds: "I have wished thee joy ever since I first saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss." Ceremonious or familiar? Anyway the humiliation and the mortification are gone if not forgotten. Don't you just love Tolkien? I know I do.

Yep, that's why we're here. As you pointed out in your first post this week, the pronouns are telling the internal story. Aragorn has admired her right along, but he is irrevocably "taken", and has behaved carefully and impeccably. Now he is free to express his avuncular fondness.

 

[FarFromHome]

As we shall see, I hope, their interaction is extremely emotional. And yet the narrator never offers us any insight into, in particular, Eowyn's state of mind. We learn what she said, how she looked etc. and are left to infer her emotional state from these external signals. Why do you think Tolkien does this? Does it work? Do you like it?

I like the way we have to interpret what the characters are thinking. It helps to give the impression that this is a history, not a novel where the author knows everything and can get into everyone's head. It takes more work to understand what's going on, especially as both of them seem to talk in riddles, but it's worth it.

As the Grey Company arrive at Dunharrow they are greeted by Eowyn who is very impressed with the "mighty" Dunedain and the "fair sons of Elrond" but, the narrator tells us, that: "…on Aragorn most of all her eyes rested". In my notes I marked this as an "early hint" of what is going on. Perhaps, though, the reader is expected already to understand that Eowyn has fallen for Aragorn, big time. Is this a hint or a reminder?

I think we're meant to know. This passage from The King of the Golden Hall could hardly be clearer:

"As she stood before Aragorn she paused suddenly and looked upon him, and her eyes were shining. And he looked down upon her fair face and smiled; but as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch. ‘Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ she said. ‘Hail Lady of Rohan!’ he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile."
​

Not only do we know that she's fallen for Aragorn, but he knows it too.

The two embark upon a series of "courtly" exchanges: "It was kindly done, lord…."; "Indeed no man would count such a journey wasted…" etc. I get the feeling that the two of them are playing some elaborate game whose rules they understand but I suspect I do not. What do you think?

I think she genuinely can't imagine Aragorn going through the Paths of the Dead, so if he's not at Dunharrow to wait for Theoden, he must have made the detour just to visit her - which is what she thinks is so "kindly done", and it must raise her hopes that Aragorn feels as she does. Aragorn immediately realises how his arrival could have been misinterpreted, and courteously replies with his "no man would count such a journey wasted" to spare her feelings.

She plays the good hostess promising that they will have better accommodation once she has had a chance to organise it the following day. Aragorn explains that that will not be necessary as they are off in the morning and will take the Paths of the Dead. There are a number of similes in this section: "…she answered as one who likes not what is said"; "Then she stared at him as one that is stricken". Do they help us get inside Eowyn's head? Are they intended to?

I guess these descriptions allow us to observe her behaviour and interpret her feelings for ourselves. It's when he mentions the Paths of the Dead that she is suddenly stricken - she has clearly known about them forever but knows them only as a road to death, and she can't get over the idea that this man, the most admirable she has ever met, is going to throw his life away there.

Eowyn is not only "stricken" by the news she also seems angry: "But this is madness…". Aragorn courteously asserts himself: "It is not madness, lady…..". They are eating and the meal is finished in silence: "but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn and all could see she was in great torment of mind". What is the nature of this torment?

Her certainty that Aragorn is going to his death.

These exchanges have been in public and they have consistently addressed each other as lord and lady. As A, L and G retire to their booth Aragorn is ambushed by Eowyn as he is following L and G into it. I take the ensuing conversation to be private (unless Gimli was eavesdropping so that he could report to Frodo for the Red Book in due course. Was their conversation overheard?)

Tolkien likes to leave such things ambiguous. He carefully mentions that Legolas and Gimli were close by - and he could have set the scene in complete privacy if he'd wanted to. But it's essentially a private conversation, with just a possible hint of how it could have been recorded later.

Eowyn immediately addresses Aragorn by name, rather than by the title "lord". After many readings I take this to be Eowyn's first (failed) attempt to put her relationship with Aragorn on a more intimate footing. It is worth noting I think that Aragorn always addresses Eowyn as "lady". What do you think?

I'm thinking that she wants to speak to him with total frankness, and to plead with him not to go to his (as she sees it) certain death. This is no time for politeness, and she strips her language to its most intimate and honest.

We are told that Eowyn is "clad in white" at this stage and I think it is implied that she has changed. Is this important? I've seen it suggested that she might be in night attire although I'm not sure about that. How about you?

She must have been in white all along, because she follows right behind Aragorn when he leaves the company and speaks to him moments later. I think the image of him seeing her as "a glimmer in the night" is very striking. It makes her seem very romantic, and gives us a sense of how she seems to Aragorn, beautiful and fragile - someone for whom he feels great pity and affection.

Their conversation is justly celebrated and I'm not going to rehearse its content. All I will say is that Eowyn always inspires in me both admiration and sympathy. I might even say "love" if one can love a fictional character. I believe some find her to be irresponsible and mentally unstable. Where do you stand on this?

I think the point that is sometimes missed is that Eowyn is convinced that Aragorn is going to his death. She's not angling to be his girlfriend, or planning a new life married to him. She thinks he's going to die, and she is so distraught at the thought that she wants to go and die alongside him. Her instincts are not so different from the men's, as she says herself about "those others who go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee – because they love thee." It reminds me also of Sam's reaction when Frodo's life is threatened, making any excuse to be allowed to share the danger and if necessary the death. Her tragedy is that she has a warrior's instincts, but a woman's body. Tolkien says in one of his Letters (Letter 43) that true friendship of the kind that men can enjoy is not possible between a man and a woman because sex always comes into it. I think Eowyn illustrates that belief. She starts out admiring Aragorn and ends up loving him in a way that can never work. And he is powerless to do anything about it, which is all the more painful for him because he feels a great deal of (platonic) tenderness towards her.

Eowyn's final thrust is to start calling Aragorn "thee" rather than "you". But it seems that even she realises that by so doing, and by obliquely declaring her love for him, she has finally overstepped the boundaries of decent behaviour because "….she turned and vanished into the night". I see her flight as caused by embarrassment. Is that right?

I don't see her declaration as oblique really - she is stating the truth as she sees it. All she is asking is to be treated like one of the men. I tend to think she vanishes because she knows she has lost the argument. If she's embarrassed now, she would hardly put herself through the much greater embarrassment the next day, you might think.

If Eowyn is humiliated Aragorn is mortified. I do not think either have behaved badly and after many readings I think I can understand their thoughts and emotions to a degree, even though they are never explicitly described. Perhaps I just got older and life's experience made such matters easier to grasp. Any comments on any of that?

I guess there are many possible interpretations, which is one of the strengths of Tolkien's way of telling the tale. I like to focus on her "shieldmaiden" instincts, rather than seeing her as just a young girl with a silly crush. But Tolkien's ambiguous, external way of
presenting the scene makes it endlessly interpretable.

Wish me joy, my liege lord and healer." she says and Aragorn responds: "I have wished thee joy ever since I first saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss." Ceremonious or familiar?

Familiar. This is the closing of the circle, and Aragorn is finally able to respond to her as she spoke once to him - and to let her know that he felt great sympathy for her all along, even though he had to treat her so hurtfully at the time.

Anyway the humiliation and the mortification are gone if not forgotten. Don't you just love Tolkien? I know I do.

Sure do!

[]

 

[sador]

Why do you think Tolkien does this? Does it work? Do you like it?
It will make the later scenes more powerful.

Is this a hint or a reminder?
After The King of the Golden Hall? A reminder.

Then the king sat upon a seat before his doors, and Éowyn knelt before him and received from him a sword and a fair corslet. 'Farewell sister-daughter!' he said. 'Dark is the hour, yet maybe we shall return to the Golden Hall. But in Dunharrow the people may long defend themselves, and if the battle go ill, thither will come all who escape.' 'Speak not so!' she answered. 'A year shall I endure for every day that passes until your return.' But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.
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he king shall come again,' he said. 'Fear not! Not West but East does our doom await us.'

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What do you think?
They are being corteous. Formal courtesy might mask anything - from a wild passion to mere emptiness.

Do they help us get inside Eowyn's head? Are they intended to?
They nudge us towards it.

What is the nature of this torment?
Whether to abide by the rules of courtesy. She knows she must, and yet she can hardly help herself.

Was their conversation overheard?
No, it wasn't Gimli. In The Last Debate he seems to have been blissfully ignorant of
Éowyn's feelings, of which Legolas was acutely aware.

But the real culprit was likely to have been Gandalf, eavesdropping on her uneasy dreams in the Houses of Healing (like he found out about the Barrow-downs from the unconscious Frodo).

What do you think?
Of course. He's keeping her at arm's length.

We are told that Eowyn is "clad in white" at this stage and I think it is implied that she has changed. Is this important?
It is to Darkstone. At least was, before he's changed his signature.

I've seen it suggested that she might be in night attire although I'm not sure about that. How about you?
No. This is Tolkien!
I would consider this the revealing of Éowyn as the White Lady of Rohan, a spiritual being rather than a seductress.

I believe some find her to be irresponsible and mentally unstable. Where do you stand on this?
That's what I love about her.

I see her flight as caused by embarrassment. Is that right?
No. It's the near-final farewell.

In their final exchange the following morning Eowyn goes for broke and as she fails is inevitably humiliated. She weeps, she addresses Aragorn by name, she consistently uses thee and thou, she falls on her knees and begs. This is all in public with the Grey Company looking on. No need for Gimli to eavesdrop here. If Eowyn is humiliated Aragorn is mortified. I do not think either have behaved badly and after many readings I think I can understand their thoughts and emotions to a degree, even though they are never explicitly described. Perhaps I just got older and life's experience made such matters easier to grasp. Any comments on any of that?
No. I just highlight your words.

Ceremonious or familiar?
Ceremonious.

Anyway the humiliation and the mortification are gone if not forgotten. Don't you just love Tolkien?
No, I just enjoy wasting my time in obscure forums. []