The meeting of Gandalf and Thrain. . . I hope we aren't in for an Enormous Anachronism.

AinurOlorin

AinurOlorin

Half-elven
Many have speculated that we see, in the trailer, an encounter between Thrain and Gandalf, wherein Gandalf already has Glamdring. Now, if in the films, Gandalf already had Glamdring as a gift from The Elves, all well and good. But IF he finds it in the trollshaws cave at the same time Thorin and Bilbo discover Orcrist and Sting. . . then a problem is presented. Thrain died nearly a hundred years before the Hobbit takes place. And prior to his death, gave to Gandalf the map and key of Erebor. Gandalf had these things when he first met with Thorin. They also proved pivotal in his getting Thorin to go along with his plan, as Thorin held Bilbo in utter contempt at their first meeting, and would have stormed out in a rage of indignation had Gandalf not produced the map and key.

I will be extremely dissapointed if they truncate the timeline and try to squeeze Gandalf's discovery of Thrain into the same timeframe as the quest for Erebor. . . .
 
One could agrue that we as fans should be used to them (jackson etc) messing around with timelines/story/characters lines... I won't be surprised by anything that is changed.

I wasn't even surprised when I heard those horrible (but thank god false) rumors about Legolas killing smaug!

Just understand that what happens in the book will not exactly happen the same way on film.
 
My hopes are that Gandalf meets Thrain as he does in the book, which would be shown as a flashback, and he finds Thrain again in some sort of "zombie form" when he returns to Dol Guldur after the Necromancer has messed with him.

I'm not sure how much sense that would make, but I think it could work.
 
... I detest timeline and geography changes!

At least character changes can be attributed to a filmmaker's "interpretation" of that specific character, but there's no excuse for the other two.
 
In the trailer we never see Gandalf fighting Thrain with Glamdring. All we see is shots of Gandalf in dol guldor at some point with a sword (which, to me, appears to be glamdring) and shots of Gandalf fighting someone (who appears to be Thrain) in dol guldor.

I really hate the fact that I sound like someone who is trying to place each scene in context because in reality it seems like there are two likely explanations: either Gandalf gets glamdring before he meets Thrain (i.e.. before the events of The Hobbit) or Gandalf doesn't visit Thrain until after the Trollshaws.

But I could be completely wrong. It could be just like it is in the books. there could be two different parts of the story that we are seeing in the trailer. One could be Gandalf finding Thrain before the events of the Hobbit and the other scenes where we see Gandalf with Glamdring could just be later scenes, after the trollshaws, when he returns to dol Guldor with Glamdring in hand.

It really is something that we can ONLY speculate on and we really can't come to any logical conclusion until we see more of the story.

I think that if they changed anything, it is MOST likely that Gandalf starts out with Glamdring and doesn't get it at the trollshaws. But again, this is me , and everyone, getting worried and trying to put scenes into context based on the TEASER. We really shouldn't try to do that 'cause it will drive us nuts. We need to be patient and wait for more information.
 
Last edited:
I feel you are right, we are speculating over too much based only on the trailer, but if actually Gandalf finds Glamdring before the Trollshaws could be an oportunity non explained but obvious for the book fans for Glamdring not shining in LOTR

will Orchrist shine?
 
My hopes are that Gandalf meets Thrain as he does in the book, which would be shown as a flashback, and he finds Thrain again in some sort of "zombie form" when he returns to Dol Guldur after the Necromancer has messed with him.

I'm not sure how much sense that would make, but I think it could work.
Click to expand...


I've speculated several times now that Thrain's corpse is possessed by a Wight after his death and made into a servant of the Necromancer. That would explain why we see him fighting Gandalf in an outdoor shot and why he looks so strange (assuming the figure really is Thorin's father).
 
Trailers often (read almost always) show scenes out of order and out of sequence. It looks to me that in the fight scene, he is fighting with his staff not a sword. And from what we have seen so far, it is highly likely that Gandalf will be shown in dol guldor twice; once in flashback to when he got the map and then when the White Council is checking out dol guldor.
 
Glamdring and Orcrist were forged for and owned by the High Lord of the Noldor, Turgon. They were taken either during the battle or after the fall of Gondolin and are believed to have become part of one of the fabled dragon hoards. So, it would be a major departure from Tolkien's tales for Gandalf to own Glamdring before the Troll scene.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jackson changed the scene (not after TTT), but I wouldn't be happy about it.
 
Otaku-sempai wrote: I've speculated several times now that Thrain's corpse is possessed by a Wight after his death and made into a servant of the Necromancer. That would explain why we see him fighting Gandalf in an outdoor shot and why he looks so strange (assuming the figure really is Thorin's father).

Me thinks this thread exhibits some needless hand wringing. There is slim to no chance that Gandalf will see Thrain AFTER the start of the unexpected journey. It's impossible for me to imagine any scenario where flipping the timeline would make any sense. It's Gandalf's meeting with Thrain that explains the wizard's involvement in Thorin's quest. Flipping these events adds needless complications to the story rather than simplifying it.

And I fail to understand why the film makers would have Gandalf fight Thrain's possessed corpse. The fight between the old dwarf and the wizard is easy enough to explain from the book without adding a possessed corpse angle. My guess is that Gandalf will recount his meeting with Thrain in a flashback to Dol Guldur where he's ambushed by a crazed and confused old dwarf. After the fight, which Gandalf wins, the old dwarf, in a brief lucid moment before he dies, hands the wizard the map and key to give to, "the King under the Mountain."
 
At least, if it follows the original version. Gandalf had no clue to the identity of the dying Dwarf, only that the map and key were for 'his son'.

It's impossible for me to imagine any scenario where flipping the timeline would make any sense. It's Gandalf's meeting with Thrain that explains the wizard's involvement in Thorin's quest. Flipping these events adds needless complications to the story rather than simplifying it.
Click to expand...


That is not what I'm suggesting. I am saying that Gandalf could encounter Thrain twice: Once, when he encounters the dying Dwarf-king; and, again in the 'present', when Thrain has been turned into a Wight to serve the Necromancer. Why? Because it amuses the Dark Lord to do so; or just because the Necromancer doesn't waste resources. Besides, we keep looking for reasons as to why he was called the Necromancer.
 
it would make more sense than Thrain and Gandalf fighting when gandalf gained the map and key. and the figure in the trailer looked to be dead IMHO

So Gandalf fighting a dead corpse of Thrain or something else on his visit to DolGuldur during the events of the hobbit would make sense, I'm still not convinced its Thrain though
 
But, I do want to see changes and additons minimized to those of cinematic necessity (or at least to those that make cinematic sense). That is still a broadly-defined subject to be sure.
 
Last edited:
I feel I have been wrongly labeled as a purist because of my opposition to unnecessary changes [angelic] but I guess if thats the way people see it I guess its not so bad LOL But I agree I don't mind some changes but to change things too much changes the story as a whole IMO[;)]
 
Otaku-sempai wrote: I am saying that Gandalf could encounter Thrain twice: Once, when he encounters the dying Dwarf-king; and, again in the 'present', when Thrain has been turned into a Wight to serve the Necromancer. Why? Because it amuses the Dark Lord to do so...

Okay, but I'm sticking with my one time meeting theory between Gandalf and Thrain. We'll just have to wait and see who's right.

Dying characters were effectively used in the LOTR films for dramatic moments. Thrain is described in the book as a broken, crazed old dwarf who no longer remembered his name. Thrain's crazed state allows the filmmakers to introduce Thrain's character with a bang rather than a whimper. Similar to the old Theoden, Thrain's mind is clouded by the darkness of the Necromancer and he attacks Gandalf in Dol Guldur. I'm guessing Gandalf is able to remove the darkness that clouds his mind--but is unable to save his life.

Given the need to accelerate the timeline for the films, I'm guessing Thrain thanks Gandalf for allowing him to die with a mind unencumbered. He then asks the wizard to find his son, Thorin Oakenshield and hands him the map and key to give to him with his last dying breath.
 
Given the need to accelerate the timeline for the films, I'm guessing Thrain thanks Gandalf for allowing him to die with a mind unencumbered. He then asks the wizard to find his son, Thorin Oakenshield and hands him the map and key to give to him with his last dying breath.
Click to expand...


What need? What does it matter if it takes Gandalf two years to find Thorin Oakenshield or ninety years? The encounter with the dying Thrain is likely to be covered in flashback in either case. There is absolutely no need to compress the timeline on that basis.
 
In fact, accelerating the timeline would likely hurt the film by removing another layer of depth and history. The LOTR films generally work better than other fantasy films because PJ took time to create a feeling of history behind the story, The more of that, the better.
 
Last edited:
Otaku-sempai wrote: What need? What does it matter if it takes Gandalf two years to find Thorin Oakenshield or ninety years? The encounter with the dying Thrain is likely to be covered in flashback in either case. There is absolutely no need to compress the timeline on that basis.

Again, the timeline may not change. I'm simply speculating. It just seems to me that the questions the filmmakers had to answer (see below) point to Thorin being named and the timeline being compressed.

1) How did Gandalf get the map and ring?
2) How did he know they belonged to Thorin?
3) What is the timeline and why? Does the wizard take his own sweet time finding who they belonged to or does it all happen soon after Gandalf's encounter with Thrain?
4) How did Gandalf locate Thorin?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top