The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir

Radagast-Aiwendil

Radagast-Aiwendil

Gondor
Warning: No small amount of sarcasm and annoyance following, but *it is purposeful*-I am certainly not the only one who worries about this.

Perhaps the thread title would be a more fitting title for Peter Jackson's second Hobbit installment. I love the films but it's clear we are hitting on problems.

So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them). Galadriel has commanded Gandalf to "show her" the Morgul blade and has been his listen lady when he needed to talk (Gandalf's line about "the small things" was great, but the tone of the scene was not). We have seen how Gandalf has been treated disrespectfully by each member of the council: Elrond questioning him and frowning at him, telling him that he is "not the only guardian to stand watch over Middle-earth". Saruman being Saruman has of course belittled all of Gandalf's efforts.

Therefore, by the stage of film two Gandalf has clearly been singled out as the inferior. Sir Ian McKellen (who, in all seriousness is the best thing about Gandalf's portrayal) has told us that at some point Gandalf will be rescued by his friend Radagast, though this is acceptable, since they are of the same order. The real problem arises now that we know about the whole "Gandalf doll" scenario. I presume therefore that the Wizard is knocked out of the battle of Dol Guldur, having been injured by (knowing PJ) a lowly Orc, or even worse by his nemesis the Witch-King (We book fans haven't forgotten the RotK EE). But fear not, for help is at hand and in one sweep The Great and Mighty Galadriel picks up Gandalf's unconscious form and bears him out of the fray, returning in wrath to single-handedly throw down the walls of Dol Guldur (this is PJ, remember, and don't forget that this exact thing happened many years later).

Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".

Well, that was a rant. I know a lot of this isn't set in stone but some of the words dropped by cast/crew members are very worrying indeed.

Fellow Gandalf fans, tell me: how did it come to this?
 
So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them).
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Do we need to go round in circles?
 
Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".
Click to expand...


This isn't necessarily the case at all. Tolkien, at least, has the Council's assault on Dol Guldur take place long before the Battle of Five Armies (Gandalf is finishing up his business there about the same time that Thorin and Company arrive at Lake-town). I don't know how Peter Jackson is going to reaarrange events, but hopefully he won't place the two battles too close together.
 
Other people talking down to someone doesn't mean they are necessarily inferior. And anyway, it's not clear that either Garladriel or Elrond talk to Gandalf as an inferior at any point in the film. Galadriel told Gandalf to show her, but this wasn't an order. He'd taken it to the meeting and had it on his lap anyway, it' not like her wasn't going to bring it out. At worst Elrond spoke to him as an equal when he asked him some questions.

Also, don't forget the fact that Gandalf cons the rest of the White Council, he essentially keeps them talking as Thorin and co escape. Galadriel had no idea about this and sounded impressed when she said "you knew."
 
I have to say that I'm not concerned. The "real" Gandalf is and always will be the one who was brought to life in the words of Professor Tolkien. All of the characters in Peter Jackson's movies have huge differences versus the characters in the books, and Gandalf is no exception.
 
I agree the White Council scene was terrible. I was really looking forward to it but Boyens and Co. felt they had really push upon the audience that Galadriel was the most powerful being on Middle Earth.

Just do what I'm going to do and edit that scene or take it out entirely. I'm probably going to edit most of it out but keep some of it so I can still see Saruman in the movie.
 
I enjoyed the scene itself, it was just the whole Galadriel thing...I can let them off, I still enjoy the film very much and I do like that scene...just not nearly as much as I thought I would.
 
"Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
-Unfinished Tales - The Istari

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek and rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."
- ibid

"Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred... Saruman... grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind.... So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise... "
- Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:
 
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That incident did quite nicely exemplify Tolkien's theme of the exaltation of the humble. And we're talking about a hobbit saving the upgraded Gandalf the White, not the humble Gandalf the Grey.
 
And a good example, I have no matter with Galadriel saving Gandalf, in fact I like quiet the idea, I don´t see Gandalf like the person that doesnt want to be helped, thats for Saruman I think.

I would dare to say that is necessary to show that part of Tolkien´s spirit, and I want to see Galadriel entering into the dirty work
 
Jackson can NOT use things from UT or the Silmarillion or any of Tolkien's other writings. Esp since what they did take from the appendices doesn't even resemble anything in them, in fact quite the opposite. [unsure]
 
...the same can be said of Jackson's FOTR I'm bemused that people still have the capacity to be surprised by each successive adaptation.

But if you watch each film carefully you'll find Jackson and Co. frequently filtched from Tolkien's other writings. I'm still at a loss as to why CT hasn't sued the pants off Jackson and had the films seized and burned.
 
I don't think Gandalf was "humiliated" in the White Council scene in the slightest. He's naturally going to have to explain himself to the Council when he arrives at Rivendell under strange circumstances and presents some fairly extraordinary claims to its senior members. That's not making him always "answerable" to the Council, it's making him answerable within the context of the scene. It makes perfect sense. What I'm getting is that some people want a very simplistically-rendered Gandalf who is always absolutely superior at every moment in the story, even when it would simply not make much narrative sense.

Allow me to also differ on Gandalf's relationship with Galadriel. I think it's fascinating.
 
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"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.
"A burden you have been," he answered,"but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind."
"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlórien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered.
-TTT
 
Jackson would get his kiwi pawns on TS and UT [shocked][crazy]

Insert Darth Vader's NO scream.


Thankfully, we're safe.[;)]

If in the future, they end up being adapted, it is only sensible to give them to someone else.

Tim Burton perhaps?[sly]
 
I think Gandalf's seeming inferiority has more to do with his own self-doubt than anything else. I don't see Lady Galadriel hammering him for what he does, AND she does side more with him and confide with him instead of Saruman. Who knows what she has seen in her mirror ...
 
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